Breeding And Raising Rams And My 240g Tank - Page 2

yoboyjuice

I moved the air stone away in the right pair eggs. the left pair eggs are turning to wigglers. I saw 3 and that's enough to know they're fertile. Unfortunately that was a small clutch to begin with and most fell off the rock so I don't expect a large group.

Now I just need right pair eggs to hatch so I know there fertile. I have no idea what those white spots are and It makes me nervous. I just need to see 1 wiggler but I'm trying to not get my hopes up.

I'm going to try and buy a dip and pour or something similar at the store today.
coralbandit how long do you keep them in a d&p and do you pull out water from the d&p and add new fresh water or do you mix it with the tank water when you do a water change? To me it sounded like it was its own tank that you just float in the tank to use the heater. Is that right?
 

coralbandit

I float them in tank that is right temp to start .
The Dip and Pours are about 3 quarts so I change about a quart a day besides using the turkey baster for solid waste.
After the turkey baster I just use a 12 ounce cup to remove water from surface being careful of fry.
I can keep a whole batch of rams in the D&P for 4 weeks. I completely change out the whole D&P with new clean one every week or when they seem slimey or have algae growth that impedes viewing. IMO keeping them together nice and tight , close to food along with easy 33-50% water changes is what gets my rams past the 2-4 week mark so many others fall off at . I know fish need food ,clean water and space to grow.They don't need much space till they are 2 months old at least.3-6 months most of my rams are in a 40b with all their brothers and sister ,sometimes cousins even .
I buy the D&P[Toms ]Or lees specimen containers on line usually from kens as they are cheapest..As of Saturday Kens had 1 large Lees left as I have just received another 10 today.
I think I have close to 40 so I can clean 1/2 and use half [probably more then half ].
 

yoboyjuice

I finally gave in and bought a d&p at my LFS for $20!
They were 8ish online but out of stock.
anyway left pair had 6 eggs hatch but The wigglers aren't doing well. I've just been so busy I didn't have time to pull all the bad eggs this time around.
Right pair aren't completely fuzzy yet so there's still hope but none have hatched and some should have by now. Those were the eggs with the weird white spots. I thought about it and I remember I had to hold the rock out of water for maybe 15 seconds so maybe those white spots are were it dried up a bit. Probably not, but I'm trying to blame something because I don't want to find out the male is Sterile.

This go around wasn't very good but it was very bad timing. Next batch I'll do properly.
 

coralbandit

I have seen angel breeders hold eggs out of water for over a minute and say it is fine if they don't get dry. I don't think you did anything. I have seen my one angel lay white [bad] eggs .I mean they were bad from the moment they saw light ? I like posting things like you did about the white spots so I can remember little things .
 

yoboyjuice

The pair that laid bad eggs was it just one bad spawn or multiple?
 

coralbandit

Her amount of bad eggs is decreasing .
I change my water parameters[raised TDS and GH] and have been adding vitamins to tank and food.
Fish will have a hiccup in the breeding road every now and then or if they are breeding heavy.
Besides water having effects on eggs I believe diet and overall nutrition play a role with the fish .
 

AquaticJ

I’m very confused as to why I’m not getting notifications for this thread even though I’m watching it. :/
 

yoboyjuice

@aquaricj I’m not really sure. You could try following me and maybe it will alert you then. I’ll @ you when I put large posts.
 

AquaticJ

It did it that time!
 

yoboyjuice

Here’s an update on everything going on. There’s no new eggs but left pair has been clean the rocks here’s a pic.

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The right pair definitely seems dominant and takes over the right and front side.
Here’s them
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I need to put the large clay pot piece back in on the left side to help brake the lines of sight and give the weaker left pair some protection. The problem is the clay pot piece is stained with methane blue so I want to try and clean it a bit first.

The gold rams that I moved back to the top show no signs of breeding. I know they’re a pair bc they’ve produced wigglers but they don’t seem as focused now that they have no competition. I’m thinking of moving the weaker hybrid pair up top and the strong gold pair Down to compete with the dominant hybrids.
Nobody is getting beat up or picked on but I think it might encourage spawning.

Now some news about the other fish and the plants. Ive been moving tons of small plants and little “shoots” down to the bottom. The substrate holds them down better and is newer so I think has more nutrients. I heard from “aquarium co-op” that after a year or so the substrate can get dried up and needs a while to recover. I don’t know if this is what’s happening but the plants do really well when I move them to the bottom. I moved some sort of carpeting plant, some regular hair grass, and some java ferns down and they’re doing really well.
Also I trimmed all the stem plants and replanted them. When they grow again I’ll sell them to my LFS or I can send them to anyone who wants them.
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Lastly the apistogramma. Unfortunately the male died. He was struggling since I got him. I have no idea what was wrong with him, I was thinking ammonia burn from shipping but I’m not good with recognizing fish diseases/illnesses besides ich and it wasn’t that. Here’s a pic if anyone wants to try and diagnose it.

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The female is staring to come out of hiding and color up tho so that’s really exciting. I’m starting to see there true colors and she is so pretty. It’s really hard to see on camera but here’s a picture.

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Finally I want to thank coralbandit he’s sending a new male apistogramma to me which I did not expect. He reached out to me which I think shows a lot. It’s great to know there’s people in the hobby who really care. If you haven’t checked him out already he’s got great rams and other fish and I can personally say his rams are the highest quality I’ve had. Both pairs have spawned and are super colorful. Thank you coralbandit

Also AquaticJ I think it only notifies you if I @ you. I don’t know why it’s like that I’m sorry.

This was a long post but there were a lot of little things happening. I’m hoping to get some eggs soon.
 

coralbandit

Thanks man!
You are not the first person who lost fish after receiving them that I have replaced. Not even the first fishlore member .
It is important to me people get what they pay for and having a greater reserve of fish and love for them it is my pleasure to make sure my people are taken care of .
I have to share my fish in order to be able to continue to breed so I appreciate all who want my fish .
Good luck with efforts and I think switching the golds and less dominant hybrid is good move .
 

AquaticJ

Yeah coralbandit takes care of fellow enthusiasts. What’s the temp of the gold Ram tank?
 

yoboyjuice

AquaticJ I’ve been keeping it at 79’ for a while but I recently bumped it up to 82.5. I know they like warm water but it is a community tank with tetras and Cory’s so I don’t want to raise it any higher.
Is there any other ways to encourage spawning?
I want them to spawn so I can pull eggs but also so I can tell the pairs apart better. Right now they’re all hiding in th plants and aren’t really separate. Once a pair spawns they’ll get more territorial and I can move a pair up top
 

yoboyjuice

My rams are being extra skidish today and yesterday. They always are in the morning when I first turn the lights on but they are really hiding. Especially the males. The female are out in the front cleaning rocks while the males hide in the plants. Which tells me the females are ready to breed but I think the males are too stressed out. Idk why. If they don’t lay eggs this week I’ll move the weak pair up top and golds down low. It’s just very hard to catch fish from the top so I don’t wanna move a fish up there and change my mind after.
Tonight ill add some new rocks, do a water change and move some things around to encourage spawning. Any other ideas?
 

yoboyjuice

One of the females laid eggs 2days ago and unfortunately they got ruined. I saw they were laying eggs and a had to go to work and while I was gone the co2 system came, my dad set it up, and while messing with the canister filter and equipment the eggs got covered in substrate and then eaten or something. Anyway. The 2nd female is getting ready to lay eggs. She’s cleaning a rock right in the middle.

I’ve been observing them for about 20 minutes every day for a week trying to see which are paired together. I know which are male and female but I don’t think it’s 2 pairs one on each side. It’s not as straight forward as I thought.
So female 1 will be ready to lay eggs and start cleaning rocks and color up etc and the 2 males will chase her around and one will win and pair up then the other will challenge and beat the male and they’ll pair up. It will flip flop several times in an hour.

Even right now as the 2nd female is getting ready the 2 makes are fighting. 1 male will defend then the 2nd will win and start defending. I’d like to get a strong pair, and then pull the other 2 and move them up top. Because otherwise 1 male might fertilize both sets. To me it seems worse but then I think about it and there doesn’t seem to be too many draw backs. The other problem in the weak female gets picked on by everyone.

I just think if they were separated or defined pairs they’d lay more often. So once I find the dominant male I’ll keep him down low with the better female or maybe both. Also I might move the gold pair down as I haven’t seen them lay eggs since the first hatch. I’ll try and show the co2 system tomorrow
 

yoboyjuice

The 2nd Female (which appears more colorful though its hard to tell if its just because she's breeding right now) laid eggs. And after the 2 males fought the slightly more colorful one ( again perhaps because he's breeding) won so I'm working on pulling the other 2 out. I moved the non-breeding female up top and now I'm working on the non-breeding male. The female is very protective and bites my finger every time I put it in the water. While the males are very skittish and hide when I walk by. I'm worried that when I go to try and catch him again the 2 will have changed color so much and both go dark from being chased that I will catch the wrong one. Tho this won't be too big of a problem as I believe each male would breed with either female.

I pulled the eggs, they're in a dip & pour hanging in the 240g with the parents with an air stone, and methalane blue. I used 3 parts ro 2 parts tap water. the ph should be around the same as the tank and the temp should be the same at 82.5. The ph in the main tank has dropped to 7.4 from the co2. I'm still working out my plans with all the co2 equipment as I think everyone was right in saying I need a bigger reactor. any ideas on a bigger one or how to diy one?
they did lay a lot of eggs and they look healthy at first glance so I'm very excited.
 

AquaticJ

Now its time to get past the parents eating the eggs! I just bought a wild caught Ram so it’ll be interesting to see his/her behavior.
 

coralbandit

Cerges and Griggs reactors are pretty simple DIY that can be as large as needed.
Place a separator in tank before trying to catch male so they can't pull the switch aroo …
I usually place eggs in water from tank for the hatching and MB.Once wigglers I start to give them fresh properly mixed water to remove the MB and for waterchanges.
Good luck.
 

AquaticJ

And I’m the only one who uses hydrogen peroxide to prevent fungus. I’m known for staining things so I stay away from meth blue lol. Good luck with this batch.
 

yoboyjuice

And I’m the only one who uses hydrogen peroxide to prevent fungus. I’m known for staining things so I stay away from meth blue lol. Good luck with this batch.

I only put methane blue in separate containers to avoid staining my aquariums.

I use it because it’s what I saw 2 different breeders do on YouTube but I have no idea the difference on effectiveness. Is hydrogen peroxide more effective? How do you dose it?
I’m up to try new things I’ve just used meth blue bc I didn’t know of any alternatives.

AquaticJ
 

coralbandit

I have tried liquid humus with apistos.It was tough to dose properly but worked .
I saw a fishery that used montmorillonite clay in a 1 minute dip for eggs. It was on Dirty Jobs .

It appears there are several other benefits to the clay also..
 

AquaticJ

I only put methane blue in separate containers to avoid staining my aquariums.

I use it because it’s what I saw 2 different breeders do on YouTube but I have no idea the difference on effectiveness. Is hydrogen peroxide more effective? How do you dose it?
I’m up to try new things I’ve just used meth blue bc I didn’t know of any alternatives.

AquaticJ
I don't know if it's more effective, but it's less messy and it seems to give me good results. Just 1ml per gallon every 12 hrs, make sure you don't have a seeded sponge filter in at the same time cause itll kill the bacteria. When they start hatching stop adding it, within a few hours it breaks down into water and oxygen and is gone.
 

yoboyjuice

They are hatching I have prob 20 wigglers so far and the other eggs look really healthy

I moved the male up so now I have 2 gold and 2 hybrids up top and the pair down below. I think I have 3 pairs. I’m now thinking about putting all 6 up top. For the gold rams I’ve just never collected the eggs soon enough or they’ve never laid them there before while up top so I preferred more down below but I’m thinking that with all 6 up top the competition will cause them to lay 2x as often so even if I miss a batch or 2 it’ll be worth it and they look happier/healthier up top.

Incase you’re new I have a 240 gallon tank with a 30ish gallon compartment in the sump.
 

AquaticJ

I had one of the fry bite the dad and leave a surprisingly nasty mark on his tail. They’re annoying him a lot actually, they peck at him often.
 

yoboyjuice

How do I siphon out the water from the dip and pour to do a water change to pick up the uneaten food, without sucking up the fry?
 

yoboyjuice

AquaticJ coralbandit
 

AquaticJ

How do I siphon out the water from the dip and pour to do a water change to pick up the uneaten food, without sucking up the fry?
HA, practice. I’ve heard of someone covering the syphon intake with a sponge, but I don’t think it would get all the food up.
 

coralbandit

I use a clear turkey baster to remove left over food.You can see if you get fry and in most cases they sink to bottom of baster faster then debris so are easily re installed to D&P with a small squirt !
I use a plastic cup to pull water out from surface if fry stay low enough [every hatch is different].
For fry that are all over the D&P I use a disposable airstone to pre filter water syphoning out an air hose ! No fry get sucked up and it works ! Worlds smallest syphon for aquariums ?lol..
 

yoboyjuice

I have tons of moss, plants, and rocks covered in many types of algae. Do they eat that sort of thing? Also there are weird worms living beteen the dip and pour and the glass of the aquarium. Are these bad? I’ve heard they can be a problem for shrimp but not fish. Also I have a 30 gallon section in the bottom full of plants and algae etc if I move the 2 fish from there out and put some or all the fry in there would they do well?

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coralbandit

Worms would likely indicate you just need to wipe down glass and do a good vacuum.
From what I have seen fry won't eat detritus worms enough to help and if they are planaria burn them with fire ! lol . Kill them fenbendazole . No good reason to harbor them.
They won't eat the algae but will pick at the infusoria [little creatures] that live in it .Again they may be helpful but you need to feed the fry.Having the algae for extra is ok. For feeding infusoria you could just culture it in mass quantities easy [green water] .
 

yoboyjuice

I only ask because I’m still gaveling problems with my brineshrimp. The salt lake have a high hatch rate maybe 80% or higher but the San Francisco is advertised as 90% but I’m getting like 10% I’m going to buy new eggs but it’s frustrating. I was thinking maybe I was doing something wrong but it can’t be that bc the salt lake hatch so well
 

yukondog

I get a bad hatch rate from San Francisco also, but they are the only kind I can find locally, the turkey baster works great, I use it with my fry also. Good luck
 

DutchAquarium

I've dealt with trying to suck up the left over food and don't deal with it anymore. I like to remove the eggs and place them in a bare bottom and throw in a aged sponge filter. Give them walter worms, they don't polute the water as much
 

AquaticJ

I only ask because I’m still gaveling problems with my brineshrimp. The salt lake have a high hatch rate maybe 80% or higher but the San Francisco is advertised as 90% but I’m getting like 10% I’m going to buy new eggs but it’s frustrating. I was thinking maybe I was doing something wrong but it can’t be that bc the salt lake hatch so well
Hey man, haven’t heard from you in a bit.
Must’ve missed this post.

I use San Francisco Bay brand. Get the water to 81, PH up to 8.0-8.2, perfect salinity, and make sure the air stone is making the eggs tumble. If you have deads spots where eggs settle on the bottom then you have to fix it. Wait at least 24 hours (30 hours seems to be the best time), use your phone and shine it at the bottom for 5 minutes. This should yield a very high hatch rate.
 

yoboyjuice

I'm going to be living in Rome Italy for the next 2 years so my dad is going to be taking over the 240g tank. My 60 gallonflowerhorn tank is empty, I sold him and my 10 gallon is currently full of native plants prom a river, mainly duckweed and red root plants I think. It was just a fun project I started a month or 2 ago but that will soon be emptied.

We drastically rescaled the 240 to make room for new plants and to make maintanece easier. This scape is way more open but feels much bigger. I’ll try and put up a quality picture. The rams have been moved to the top to make feeding easier.
I haven’t given up on breeding rams, but I think I’ve taken the wrong approach.
I was following accomplished breeders who go for a high quality and high quantity return. This is very effective and eventually I want to succeed with there methods but I think in 2 years when I try again I need to make it easier to maintain, by increasing water volume and adding a sponge filter and making the brine shrimp Hatchery more effective.

With 2 jobs it was just too hard not to miss a water change and the problems with the Hatchery made things dogficult too.

I’m not leaving till the 12th so if you have any questions I’m still here till then.

Thank you everyone for your input and help, I can’t wait to get everything up and running again in 2 years. Thank you AquaticJ and coralbandit

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AquaticJ

I'll be in Italy this coming summer for a week, Rome included. Small world. I wish you the best of luck my friend.
 

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