Booster Pump And Permeate Pump Combo Experience?

[Disturbed.)]

Wondering if anyone else out there has tried it? From what little I could find out in the either the concept seems sound and that the permeate pump would still act as a 100% auto shut off and still separate the back pressure from the tank and the membrane pressure.
I just experimented with it and found that the permeate pump never once cycled. I don't have the time or the gear to measure and break down the flow numbers just know that when I ran it without the booster on a single membrane it worked rather well as far as permeate:brine with my low pressure. I could also hear it loudly knocking then. My new system has a waste water recovery membrane and I knew my 36 psI couldnt support that so I added an aquatech 8800 and looped in the old ERP1000. Run times on the pressure pump are pretty much the same with or without the ERP. Ill get some TDS readings before the dI over the next week or so with it back off then reinstall it clock those. Then again without an auto shut off
If anyone else has tried this I'd love to know what you've found.

Dislcaimer Needed I guess I sould also mention that I did call Bulk Reef Supply and told them what I planned to do with their water saver package and they said that tanked systems are not generally recommended with a second membrane because of pressure issues and I told them I was going to boost just could not get that from them because they were currently out of stock. They then told me that they weren't familiar with running a permeate pump without an auto shut off but gave me clear instructions over the phone on how to set up a permeate pump in the system I was ordering. What I am trying to do is maximise efficiency but still retain a pressure tank so that we can drink the water as well as let the fish get theirs. If anyone is interested Ill update my findings and include pics of the configuration of each setup. My gear is near the ceiling though so pics won't be the best angles

Day two without the permeate pump and both readings both days shows an improvement. Running both pumps with an auto shutoff valve for 3 days I had TDS readings coming into the DI stage at 9 ppm. I have had the same readings each time for the last couple days without the permeate pump at 5ppm. So far it seams that while permeate pumps are a benifit alone they only hinder a booster pump.

This will be the last post on this thread if it isn't of any interest to anyone. Todays results were from a mixing tank fill. Under normal operation all of the ro water comes from the tank with the exception being a mixing barrel fill that uses all of the tank 3.5 gallons and another 16 gallons the RO has to make on demand no back pressure. I have my mixing station ro input on a y with valves on ro and dI sides to control resin use. Today I started filling a 5 gallon top off jug and received a phone call from another fish keeper. I paid no attention to the jug because normally it would fill fast for a few gallons then take an eternity to finish off. Well within a 20 minute phone call I not only filled but flooded my utility room floor 2 towels deep. The pressure pump is that much faster and the reading are the same while filling and with an empty tank 4ppm as long as I remember to flush the membrane first.

 

[TLeTourneau]

Good information, thanks for posting! I thought about doing something similar but your results helped me decide not to. I have a 100 GPD Express Water 10 Stage System with an alkalinity filter that I added a permeate pump to increase efficiency along with a BRS triple DI filter (branched off prior to the alkalinity filter) and a total of 30 gallons of pressurized storage. It worked but I wanted more production as we have a 150 gallon freshwater and 91 gallon saltwater tank and added a 40 gallon RO storage tank, we use the re-mineralized RO water for the freshwater tank, ice, and drinking water that the RODI water for the saltwater tank. I added another 100 GPD membrane in series to increase production and added an Aquatic Life Aquatic Life Smart Buddie Booster Pump for 50-100 GPD Reverse Osmosis Systems. I had wondered about trying to utilize the permeate pump as well but I think I will leave well enough alone.

 

[Disturbed.)]

I have been pretty pleased with how the system is currently running but I plan to make a few more tweeks in the coming months. All incoming water to the house save the outside spigot and toilet, passes through a 4.5X20 5µ sediment filter. The line that feeds my aquarium obsession passes through a 4.5X20 5µ Carbon block before it tees off to the barrels in the basement and upstairs to the Utility room. There it tees again to the RO system and mixing barrel. I plan to swap my single stage dI for a triple and use that canister as a 1µ pre filter before the booster. Water enters the RO @ 0 chlorine. Moving the sediment from the RO to before it means I can place a .5µ sediment after the 2 carbon blocks in membrane prefilter to catch every last particle of carbon that inevitably rinses through and ends up in the membrane. I also plan on adding the electronic auto flush/restrictor valve because I'm terrible at pre-flushing the system. I will still keep the tank and dI stage together as I can't see a good way to keep them truly separated and the booster pump switch still operate no matter which output is being used. 4ppm does eat resin though so the triple stage should save me money there. I also picked up the aquatec ESO a month ago but haven't installed it yet. I will probably wait until after I have the triple dI installed to add it because the ESO should allow for a full tank fill and that will raise my TDS.
Where did you get the 40 gallon pressure tank? I've been eyeing the RO40 Pentair on eBay for over a year but haven't pulled the trigger because of the 1" i/o.

 

[TLeTourneau]

I have been pretty pleased with how the system is currently running but I plan to make a few more tweeks in the coming months. All incoming water to the house save the outside spigot and toilet, passes through a 4.5X20 5µ sediment filter. The line that feeds my aquarium obsession passes through a 4.5X20 5µ Carbon block before it tees off to the barrels in the basement and upstairs to the Utility room. There it tees again to the RO system and mixing barrel. I plan to swap my single stage dI for a triple and use that canister as a 1µ pre filter before the booster. Water enters the RO @ 0 chlorine. Moving the sediment from the RO to before it means I can place a .5µ sediment after the 2 carbon blocks in membrane prefilter to catch every last particle of carbon that inevitably rinses through and ends up in the membrane. I also plan on adding the electronic auto flush/restrictor valve because I'm terrible at pre-flushing the system. I will still keep the tank and dI stage together as I can't see a good way to keep them truly separated and the booster pump switch still operate no matter which output is being used. 4ppm does eat resin though so the triple stage should save me money there. I also picked up the aquatec ESO a month ago but haven't installed it yet. I will probably wait until after I have the triple dI installed to add it because the ESO should allow for a full tank fill and that will raise my TDS.
Where did you get the 40 gallon pressure tank? I've been eyeing the RO40 Pentair on eBay for over a year but haven't pulled the trigger because of the 1" i/o.

I have a 20 gallon and two five gallon tanks tied together for storage so it's 30 gallons gross storage, I have about 16 gallons net pressurized storage. I got the 20 from a local store but it is similar to this one:

 

[Disturbed.)]

So your tank has a 1 inch in/0ut? How did you reduce it down to RO tubing? Did your TDS increase after adding the larger tank?

 

[Thunder_o_b]

This is a good and useful thread. Thank you for posting it. I was wondering about the booster and permeate pump combination.

We are on well water with a 75 GPD BRS RO/DI system. The flow is well>pressure tank>house filter>water softener>splitter to house and RO/DI>House filter>RO/DI>90 gallons heated storage.

I plan to up to a 150 GPD system with pressure pump, an auto flush, and shut off when the float stops the flow. I was told the permeate was really not needed for that setup.

 

[TLeTourneau]

So your tank has a 1 inch in/0ut? How did you reduce it down to RO tubing? Did your TDS increase after adding the larger tank?

I used a combination of brass and plastic fittings from Home Depot to reduce down to the 1/4 push fitting. My TDS in is around 215, my RO TDS is around 5 (but I have an alkalinity filter on that output), and my RODI TDS is 0. I use the RO for drinking water, ice, and the freshwater tank while the RODI water is used for the saltwater tank.

I was curious yesterday and ran a production test. With the Aquatic Life RO Smart Buddie running and the storage tanks shut off one 100 gpd membrane the system produces one gallon of product water in 12 minutes for a potential daily output of 120 gpd while using two 100 gpd membranes in series produced one gallon of product water in six minutes 45 seconds increasing product water output to 213 gpd with no change in product TDS but that may also be related to the remineralazation effect of the alkalinity stage of the RO system. Not quite a 100% increase but I'll take it. I did not test the waste water production as it is not a concern to me but I would expect similar results to what BRS found in their tests. Here are some photos of my current setup, one the DI resin is exhausted I will be replacing it with the triple DI system from BRS.

 

[TLeTourneau]

This is a good and useful thread. Thank you for posting it. I was wondering about the booster and permeate pump combination.

We are on well water with a 75 GPD BRS RO/DI system. The flow is well>pressure tank>house filter>water softener>splitter to house and RO/DI>House filter>RO/DI>90 gallons heated storage.

I plan to up to a 150 GPD system with pressure pump, an auto flush, and shut off when the float stops the flow. I was told the permeate was really not needed for that setup.

I wouldn't think that you would need a permeate pump if you are adding a booster pump for the RO system. I am really impressed with the Aquatic Life RO Smart Buddie so far, it is an all in one booster solution that includes automatic back flush, booster pump, and the flow restrictor in one unit.

Out of curiosity I checked my waste output, it's at 151.6 gpd vs a production rate of 213 gpd for a production vs waste rate of 140.5% and a membrane rejection rate of 97.7%, the waste water is at 753 TDS. Overall I am happy with the results.

 

[Thunder_o_b]

I wouldn't think that you would need a permeate pump if you are adding a booster pump for the RO system. I am really impressed with the Aquatic Life RO Smart Buddie so far, it is an all in one booster solution that includes automatic back flush, booster pump, and the flow restrictor in one unit.

That looks to be quite the setup you have there.

 

[TLeTourneau]

That looks to be quite the setup you have there.

Thanks, it's getting there. I just need to add the Bulk Reef Supply triple DI system and it should be good to go. I also have a self flushing whole house filter integrated into my water softener so that also helps.

 

[Disturbed.)]

I wish I knew the smart buddy existed when I started putting this all together I've spent more than what is costs on the 8800 and pressure sensor alone. The electronics auto shutoff was another $50 and I still haven't bought the auto flush restrictor. Very nice setup

I wondered how linking differnt sized pressure tanks would perform. Now that I see you did it I'm going to tee in my old 3 gallon tank and bleed them to the same empty psi, until or if I pop for the Monster 40.
My whole house filter isn't smart enough to backwash but I should have invested in one, you'll see that in the next pic. I change the 4.5X20 every 3 months and I am only week late with this filter. The 4.5X20 carbon however is still 0 chlorine after nearly a year and the semI anual water report they send says that the choline only barely passes each time, the water smells of bleach out of the tap. I will change it anyway with the sediment this time because our water is unfit to drink according those reports for a couple decontamination chemicals they use, go figure.

I cut and acidify the water in the white barrel. The two in the basement are prepped heated water, circulated by a maxijet 1200 and a couple q2 air pumps. A Sunsun CTP1200 pump moves the water back upstairs.

I'm thinking of automating that with a cool "edit" orbit irrigation setup I saw on Dustins Fish Tanks Youtube channel. I still need to do some plumbing mods linking all the barrels and have to finish sealing those barrels out of the dust since the celler is open to the crawl space and the return pump doesn't like moving water up and out if I clamp the rings. When I'm happy with all of that Ill put it in another thread since it isn't RO related.
As soon as I add the auto flush and ESO I'll post up some more numbers. The triple dI comes with a triple TDS meter. Ill move the dual meter so I can use it to see the tap TDS as well

Out of curiosity I checked my waste output, it's at 151.6 gpd vs a production rate of 213 gpd for a production vs waste rate of 140.5% and a membrane rejection rate of 97.7%, the waste water is at 753 TDS. Overall I am happy with the results.

That is impressive. when this pump dies Impicking up a smart buddy

We are on well water with a 75 GPD BRS system. The flow is well>pressure tank>house filter>water softener>splitter to house and RO/DI>House filter>RO/DI>90 gallons heated storage.

A permeate pump only helps by isolating the back pressure of a pressurized storage tank then using the brine flow to overcome it. So without a pressurized tank, a permeate pump would definitely hinder performance.

 

[TLeTourneau]

Another update for those who are interested. I had just replaced the mixed bed DI resin in my single DI canister and thought I would need to wait for it to become exhausted before replacing it with the Bulk Reef Supply triple DI system I had purchased but after a call to BRS support (top notch as always) they recommended that I just use the existing mixed bed DI canister in the triple DI mixed bed location and save the new resin for a future change (it has a two year shelf life if unopened). With that advice I installed the BRS triple DI system today. TDS in is 2-3 ppm, TDS after the first two resins is 0, and the TDS after the mixed bed resin is 0. I may use the spare 10" filter for a pre-filter of some sort seeing that it's mounted and on the feed side of the RO system. If you look closely you'll see that the pressure feeding the first RO membrane is around 100 PSI.

 

[Thunder_o_b]

Great system

 

[Disturbed.)]

I have the money set aside and itching to pull the trigger "its on sale" that is if BRS will ever get the Tripple dI back in stock. Ive been waiting for more than a month now. I did order a 35 and 23 gallon barrel so I can have have an exact mix of RO and acidified tap to decrease the time it takes for the water to be ready. Looks like Ill spend tomorrow building another barrel stand instead up hooking up any new equipment

Well, I've had the auto flush flow restrictor and triple DI in use for just over a month now and I can't say I'm excited about the results. I've been working late and I'm getting behind on a lot so I can't post any pics yet but I can say that consistently my fill tank TDS has doubled since adding the auto flush restrictor. Any benefit that I gained from adding the triple DI canisters is wiped out by that. I will try and tweak a few things in the next few weeks; like adding the electronic shut off valve, and after I will post those results along with the pics of this configuration. I'm "all in" with aquatech gear now and can give an honest review.
TDS "after the flush' is off the charts high and takes several minutes to back off even then its double the TDS of the manual flush valve and the only other change was replacing the single for a triple DI. If things don't improve soon Ill be removing it all and installing a Smart Buddy. Thanks again
TLeTourneau for all of that info. I really liked the booster system before adding the automation components. I wonder, that if I preboost everything with the 8800, that the smart buddy could perform all of its other tasks without its own pump in use???