Blonde Guppy Genetics - Tit For Tat?

Okay, guys, I need some "edjumacating!"

My question has to do with the genetic quality of blonde guppies, in particular those known as "super blonde" or "super red" by some.

I'm hoping BillCNC can weigh in on this, because he's working on a similar guppy project.

Here's the story:

So I had bought a huge, beautiful golden female guppy a couple of months back whom I thought would make a wonderful addition to my ten gallon tank. She was the BIGGEST guppy I'd ever seen. She was also very pregnant. She got along fine with my three other "feeder" guppies, and two other blonde females who were not as bright nor as large as she.

During quarantine, one of the smaller blondes died giving birth, and the huge Blonde caught ich. I treated the tank with salt and heat and that took care of the first case, but then she got it again after being moved to the ten gallon. Then I accidentally shocked my annacharis (log story, big oops!), which flooded the tank with ammonia before I knew what was going on. Big and Little Blonde started gasping so I moved them back to quarantine. She gave birth there, then both fish got ich again. Little B came down with fin rot and died very quickly. I managed to get Big B healthy again, but when I moved her back to the big tank where her fry were now two weeks old and too big to swallow easily, she immediately got both ick and fin rot and died before I could make it to town to get the right meds.

Mind you, the weather this spring in our area fluctuated so badly that everyone's fish were getting ick. My heaters just could not handle it.

So the fry wound up with ich. The first and worst cases happened to the blonde fry. The two little grey fry one of my grey girls popped out a week before the blonde never showed signs of distress, and it wasn't until every blonde fry was COVERED in ich that a couple spots showed up on the greys. They also recovered the quickest. Many of my blondes also suffered bad fin rot damage - many had to re-grow all of their belly fins. But not the greys.

Now. I raised bettas for a couple years and understand some rudimentary genetics. Sometimes, in order to achieve certain characteristics that are far outside those found in nature - such as albino, gigantism, long fins, etc. - one winds up sacrificing health, vitality, and/ or longevity. (Mostly due to the necessity of inbreeding in order to establish the desired genetic trait.)

I would not doubt big Blonde was very inbred. Her fry are almost a month old and out of 70+ babies, over twenty developed serious spinal deformities (or other disorders that led to me having to put them down, which is not pleasant nor easy). I'm new to deliberately breeding guppies, so I'm not sure if this is a normal ratio of deformities for that many fry born at once.

I want to raise guppies that will thrive in an outdoor summer pond. I like the look and size of these super blonde guppies, but so far they seem less vital and more sensitive than my small greys.

What can anybody tell me about blonde guppy genetics? I read somewhere that blonde traits are linked to size (which is why dark guppies are very small). And I know from other basic genetic studies that increased size equates to shorter life spans and weaker immunities (due to increased stress on organ function).

I'm afraid I know more about bettas genetics than guppies, so ANY thoughts on guppy genetics are much appreciated.

Thank you!

 

Giving this a bump up for you hope you get some responses today

 

Thank you! I probably have this posted in the wrong forum, but I am patient. Genetics can be an intimidating topic!

 

I myself have been breeding guppies for years now. To be honest, blonde doesn't have to create large sized specimens by definition. Are there large sized blondes? Oh, for sure! Take albino koi guppies for instance. The females can grow up to 3 inches if the conditions are right.
Whatever base color the guppy might be, there are specimens that grow up big but also smaller sized ones depending on the strain itself. Wether the base color is grey, blonde, white, blue or even bronze. So, it's more likely that it's a genetic issue of each individual strain whether large specimens will develop or not.
A good example of smaller sized blondes are blondes with the pink gene in them. Don't mix up the pink gene with the magenta gene for those are two different genes. The females with the pink gene stay smaller but can have a ferm build but remain having a shorter body length in comparison to a average female fancy guppy.
But there are more factors that may result in a smaller or larger body size.

 

I myself have been breeding guppies for years now. To be honest, blonde doesn't have to create large sized specimens by definition. Are there large sized blondes? Oh, for sure! Take albino koi guppies for instance. The females can grow up to 3 inches if the conditions are right.
Whatever base color the guppy might be, there are specimens that grow up big but also smaller sized ones depending on the strain itself. Wether the base color is grey, blonde, white, blue or even bronze. So, it's more likely that it's a genetic issue of each individual strain whether large specimens will develop or not.
A good example of smaller sized blondes are blondes with the pink gene in them. Don't mix up the pink gene with the magenta gene for those are two different genes. The females with the pink gene stay smaller but can have a ferm build but remain having a shorter body length in comparison to a average female fancy guppy.
But there are more factors that may result in a smaller or larger body size.

I've heard of the other gene types, but pink, magenta and blue are new to me. I will try to look for info on those, but for now I want to work with what I've got.

So what is the main difference between blonde and "super red"? Is it just color concentration, or brightness? I noticed, for example, yellow bristle-nosed plecos that are called super red are more orange in appearance than, say, " lemon" BN plecos. My big blonde certainly was a rich golden color; some of her offspring are the same way, and some are much paler.

I would like to experiment with this strain, to see if I can develop both a very pale and very deep-colored strain. But first, I'm interested in improving the overall health and hardiness of this strain. What would you recommend I breed this generation with to improve the line without losing the color? (Size is actually my least priority.)

Also, I noticed in your signature that you focus on wild guppies and endlers. Wild guppies were what I wanted to start with, but no fish store, large or small, within 100 miles of me stocks them, but I can get Endlers. They are a subspecies, correct? How do I tell the difference between a wild guppy, an endler, and a hybrid? To me, they have a lot of the same markings, and I want to be able to tell endler hybrids apart from wild crosses.

 

Super reds are mostly guppies with an intense red color covering the blonde or grey base color. But also when it's labeled being "full red", some may call them super red. But the majority of super reds are blonde based guppies.


Above: This is a full red albino but also known as super red albino.
Below: This is a regular albino blonde female (so, translucent fins and no further markings)




With most fish, there might be differences between color intensity in the offspring of equal colored parents. So, that itself is not something rare to start with.

When you try to hold on to specific characteristics of the strain, frequent culling in the first couple of generations is a must at all time.

An endler is a different species in comparison to guppies (different dna). But they are related.
If we just forget about the old scientific labeling of guppies and endlers and just look at the current labeling, we'll divide them in three acknowledged species:
1: Poecilia reticulata
2: Poecilia obscura
3: Poecilia wingei

A subspecies would be "micropoecilia strains".

Well, the big difference between the three first ones mentioned is the dna. But hard to tell from the outside of course. But specific traits of wild endlers and wild guppies are present. Swords (elongated outer caudal finrays) of wild endlers are much different than specific wild guppy strains may have. Certain monocles or bars on both sides of the fish that are typically endler traits. Or a marking as the socalled maculatus mark or spot, which is typically a reticulata trait. A long time it was suggested that there were diffences in the number of the dorsal finrays but nowadays it's known that for both that number will between 4-6. So, that won't rule out the species. When it comes to males, the shape of the gonopodium does differ between these two species. But they're compatible enough to have a fully biological mating with a female of the other species. If the gonopodium is not compatible with the sexual organ of a female of the other species, no natural mating will take place even if the male has been chasing her all day.
It's been said that wild endlrs are more metallic colored than wild guppies. Doesn't have to be for there are wild guppy strains that also have a metallic shine on their body. But yes, there are also wild guppy strains that don't have a metallic shine.

Wildguppies and endlers have almost the same behavior. Most fancy guppies have lost a lot of the behavior of those wild ones.

In capativity bred endler hybrids are various. Some have more endler traits and some have more guppy traits in them. It depends on the genetic package of both species used to establish this specific hybrid.

Overhere a yellow saddleback endler hybrid.


The black saddle and the yellow come from the guppy and also the red marking on the shoulder. The body shape and the shape of the swords come from the endler.

Overhere the Santa maria bleeding heart endler hybrid.


The black and the red coloration come from the guppy. The body shape and the the shape of the swords come from the endler.

Overhere the cardinal hybrid endler.


The blue and red come from the guppy. And the body shape and short swords from the endler.

These three are just some examples of endler hybrids. But all have this metallic shine which relates more to the endler than guppy.

 

Oops, still can't see my pics overhere...
Are they still working on it? I've tried to post them as being thumbnails.

 

Nope, don't see pics here on my end, but you are descriptive enough for me to get the picture in my head, lol. Some of the endler hybrid descriptions sound much like what my one mature male might be. He has a very slender body shape.

I would like to know more about the differences in each species' behavior, but at the moment have little to compare. The only major behavioral difference I noticed between the greys and the blondes is that the greys are extremely diligent foragers, whereas most of the blondes prefer to hang around at the top of the tank waiting for flakes most of the day. The greys also have a taste for hatching snails that the blondes do not share.

Thank you for clarifying the different species and enlightening me on the blonde genetics. As well as the breeding insight, I really appreciate it. I'm glad, then, that I have been carefully culling as my fry grow. I'm eager to see how they turn out in a few months, because it seems like I might have a nice base to work with (color wise). I might keep it simple an start with improving the strain's vigor.

Now, I'm keeping the blonde and grey strains separate. I chose my greys because I want to breed voracious mosquito munchers to live in outdoor setups through the warmest summer months (wintering indoors, of course) and so coloration doesn't matter as much to me as hardiness and good foraging behaviors.

I could add Endler, but are the hybrids sterile? (Can't believe I didn't ask that sooner.)

 

Well, the pictures show up now. So, you can have a visible view.
Endler hybrids are fertile by all means.

 

An endler is a different species in comparison to guppies (different dna). But they are related.
If we just forget about the old scientific labeling of guppies and endlers and just look at the current labeling, we'll divide them in three acknowledged species:
1: Poecilia reticulata
2: Poecilia obscura
3: Poecilia wingei

It should be four instead of three. Mentioned it incorrectly by mistake, when typing rapidly.

This is the correct reply:

1. Poecilia reticulata (current name)
2. Poecilia wingeI (current name)
3. Poecilia obscura
4. Poecilia kempkesi