Blinded My Fish?

I changed the filtration system in my tank from a sponge filter to a canister. The spray bar moved a lot of debris around the tank and now my 2-rainbow fish and 1-pea puffer are unresponsive to motion and have not eaten in four days.
Tank

What is the water volume of the tank? 29 gallon rectangle
How long has the tank been running? 10 months
Does it have a filter? a canister
Does it have a heater? yes
What is the water temperature? 76
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) a couple of mystery snail, 5 feeder guppies, two rainbow fish, and one pea puffer.

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? once a week
How much of the water do you change? 25 %
What do you use to treat your water? Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Half is sand and half is shallow gravel. I vacuum the gravel real good and the sand the best I can. Sometimes I use a turkey baster to get the sand better-about once a month. The sand half is heavily planted.

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? test kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15-20
pH: 6.8

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? once a day
How much do you feed your fish? the pea puffer I hand feed one or two white worms in the morning and at night. The others get one cube of freeze dried brine shrimp
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Omega One
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? occasionally frozen blood worms

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? The rainbows (male and female) 8 months and pea puffer 6 months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? the next day after changing to canister
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? They seem to be blind-they do not respond to movement and bump into the plants now
Have you started any treatment for the illness? yes, I used E.M, General Cure, and aquarium salt
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? The rainbow would hid from me and the pea puffer would follow me.

Explain your emergency situation in detail. (Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now) I noticed the fish bumping into the plants the next day, tried to feed my pea puffer and he would not eat. The feeder guppies are not effected, they eat, and run from me. It has been four days now and no change. Yes, I did the recommended 25% water change as well. How long can they go without eating or seeing? What other medication could I try? They swim very well meaning their fins are out and moving. The red male rainbows outer ring of eye started turning red, but after the second day it was back to normal. The pea puffer now sits in a corner, the female rainbow stays at the top, the male rainbow swims all around (bounding off the plants). Any help would be great.

 

Did you run both filters together ?
Or did you just switch them in one day ? If so you removed a good portion of the bacteria possibly ..
I would put the sponge back in tank ,even if it has been out and dry since ..

 

Yes, I changed at same time, but I squeezed the two sponge filters into canister and filled canister with same tank water. I will put sponges back into tank. So are they blind or just in shock?

 

I wish I could say I knew ?
I think you need to keep the sponge going with the canister for like 2 weeks at least .
That will ensure 'seeding'.
If can safely do so changing water is always good . Remember to dechlorinate .

 

Thank you coralbandit, by the way what is seeding?

 

Thank you coralbandit, by the way what is seeding?

"Seeding" is growing beneficial bacteria on new filter media.

In this case, coralbandit is suggesting that you run the new media alongside the old media for a few weeks to mitigate the loss of your cycle. Water holds little to no beneficial bacteria; it's all in the media. So if you toss your media and put in new media you're throwing away the majority of the beneficial bacteria colonies. Replacing media in stages, and running old and new media together to maintain the cycle and seed the new media, is the safest way to transition.

 

I get what you are saying, nitrates looked good till today. Sponge filters are in, but nitrates have gone to 0. I did a 25% water change yesterday, what do I do now? Plus, how long can they go without food?

 

How are the fish today after the WC? The symptoms you describe could be due to a minI cycle, (or something else) but if ammonia is now at 0ppm, hopefully they perk up. Only assuming there was a spike that you didn't catch. I hope they are feeling better.

 

How are the fish today after the WC? The symptoms you describe could be due to a minI cycle, (or something else) but if ammonia is now at 0ppm, hopefully they perk up. Only assuming there was a spike that you didn't catch. I hope they are feeling better.

They are still swimming, but not seeing our eating. Thank you for asking angelcraze. I am very worried about them. Should I put the charcoal back in or wait a few more days?

 

Yes, if the charcoal is not exhausted, I would run it just to ensure there were no toxins released.

I think they are not feeling well for some reason. Red around the eye makes me think ammonia poisoning. How are the gills? Are they red? Are they breathing heavily?

I have a very old blind lemon tetra. He still tries to eat and senses movement as the food slowly drops or to move around other fish. That tells me he is healthy, just can't see. Plus his pupils are white with cataract.

When they stop eating and become lethargic, bumping into objects, some parameter or condition is off.

6.8 pH is pretty low. Is it always that value?

What type of rainbow are they?

 

No sign of breathing heavy. PH varies from 6.8-7. Our water is acidic with a PH of 7.2ish. The female had reddish gills but look better now. The male actually just got a bite of freeze dried shrimp and spit it out and I looked over and he snagged a bladder snail off the glass just now. (Forgot those were in there.) Not sure what type of rainbow, can I post a picture here?

 

By the pic you can see tail fin nipped, it was worse, so it is healing.

 

Top rainbow is Red Iranian [male] . Very nice looking bow .
Not sure on second.

 

Thank you. I have saw them mate and eggs drop so assuming they were a pair. Coralbandit how long can my babies live without eating?

 

As far as I know, those rainbows prefer harder water. I don't think softwater is good for them long-term is what I mean. Luckily it's much easier to add minerals than to remove them. The white lips are familiar to me when they are kept in softer water. Btw, the female Red Iranian rainbow is silvery with a golden tint, so I do indeed think you have a pair
But I'm not the most versed with them.

coralbandit Do you know if parameters need adjustment?

Also SeanyBaggs123 keeps bows.

 

Thank you for the info on what bows I have. Now to get the parameters right. I had them in my 36 gallon bow tank, but he picked on everyone, so I thought it would be best to put him in this tank since I had it running with just feeder guppies. All was well till I made rookie mistake by changing filtration system incorrectly.

 

How do I ask SeanyBaggs123 questions? I am still new to forums.

 

My understanding of bows is they are very flexible on water parameters as far as hardness goes . Extremes should be avoided but average soft or hard water should be no issue .
6.8 pH is all good IMO .Honestly I think pH is almost so worthless I dare say that OPs water could still be harder then mine which 7.6 ? It comes down to TDS and for some they are comfortable with GH or KH ..They don't mean much to me either ! TDS rules if you have a basic understanding of all.

How do I ask SeanyBaggs123 questions? I am still new to forums.

Angel tagged Sean by hitting the @ and entering his name which is why you see it highlighted .He will receive a notification he was mentioned in this thread .

 

Yes I totally agree about pH, that it doesn't mean OP's water isn't hard. My tap pH is 7.6, but KH and GH are 2 degrees, TDS ~60 average just as an example. That's a lot to measure for someone just getting into it. So.....

OP: Sounds like you don't have to worry That's why I was just checking.

Are they any better today? It was the pea puffer that was hiding in a corner, the male iranian was bouncing off plants and the female was staying up top, but not gasping. Her gills might have been red, but they look good now. It's a good sign that the male snagged a snail. Did he eat it? Even mouthing the food is a thing. He must be able to see now? What do you think?

 

Yes I totally agree about pH, that it doesn't mean OP's water isn't hard. My tap pH is 7.6, but KH and GH are 2 degrees, TDS ~60 average just as an example. That's a lot to measure. So.....

You make my claim even more valid ! My pH is 7.6 my KH is 2-3 my GH is 9 and my TDS is 350 ! You have a TDS of 60 ? Although those first few numbers sure make your water and my water look the same or very close your TDS is lower by 290 ppm ?

 

Pea puffer rises to the top then back into the plants. I call him Sweetpea. He is swimming back and forth in the back of the tank right now. Red spit the snail out and it climb back up the glass. What is and what do I need for TDS.

 

TDS is a measure of Total Dissolved Solids .It is like a combined GH/KH over hardness test
I use this pen .

 

Hey all.

Based on the information we have, I have to agree that you probably crashed your cycle by moving your sponge filter. Don't beat yourself up about it. It happens. Now you know that most of your nitrifying bacteria colonizes on surface areas, and a minimal amount exists in the water column. Put the sponge back to start building bacteria again.

I've done A LOT of reading on rainbows since I first thought they had columnaris. Adrian Tappan wrote the bible on it (500pg textbook) that you can most likely download for free if you do a little digging. Turns out one of coralbandit guesses was right in regards to my bows, and it was just injury. The tips of their mouths looked white as well. All that being said, if this were the early 1900's I would take into account the fact that Bows like hard water. However, they have been bred over and over and over in captivity (I'd be willing to bet a great deal your iranian red rainbows were too). So, its a moot point. IMO you shouldn't chase ph or kh/gh (unless your ph is swinging around all over the place), because at the end of the day, your specific rainbows and multiple generations before them were used to captivity water parameters.

Rainbows are really hardy fish. Change the water (I would daily until they start acting normal again), give them a good diet (frozen brine shrimp, bloodworms), and personally I added wonder shells to their tanks. I have minimal understanding of the cations they add to the tank, but since I have been using them all the bows thrive and the tank is balanced. Not only that, but my male boesemanI look better than any I've seen in any store and try to spawn daily.

Now for the not so fun advice..... get more rainbows and put them all in a bigger tank. The most I would put in my 60 gallon tank is 8 and the least I would keep is 6. They are really a community schooling fish and part of their stress could be due to the fact that they only have each other.

At the end of the day you know your tank and your fish better than anyone, and have to make the decision you think is best, but this has been my experience, and I don't think the white on the male's lips has anything to do with disease. Also, I'm not a fan of meds. As soon as I paid attention to water quality/diet/and added the wonder shells everything started to improve. Nothing did when medicating.

How are they acting today?

Edit: I don't have time to reread the whole thread right this second, but all of those opinions are predicated on the rainbows weird behavior starting after you removed sponges.

Also, I would switch to frozen or live shrimp and toss the freeze dried stuff.

 

Wonder shells are something I use and read about due to their strange reaction with aquarium water .
Again on the pH / TDS thing I was using wonder shells with my swordtails as they do like harder water .
I really don't test pH much but when my TDS in the swordtail tank was 1,114 ppm I thought I might check !
The ph was 6.9 ! My tap is 7.6 with TDS of 350 so they added dissolved solids to the water but lowered the pH.
I now add baking soda to tanks I use wonder shells in to keep pH up ..These fish like hard water but maybe what it does without baking soda is good for the bows ?

I might be inclined to give them a try knowing what I know and hearing SeanyBaggs123 experience .

 

You make my claim even more valid ! My pH is 7.6 my KH is 2-3 my GH is 9 and my TDS is 350 ! You have a TDS of 60 ? Although those first few numbers sure make your water and my water look the same or very close your TDS is lower by 290 ppm ?

I know, I usually ask for KH, GH and TDS values to determine hardness, had a brain fart XD! I agree with you!

Yes, tap is 40-80 TDS depending on the time of year. My manicipality only uses chlorine and salts to raise pH without adding hardness. I guess they don't add too much. My tanks average a TDS of 90 to 120.

Very interesting about the Wondershells! After reading a bit about them, I do agree they might be beneficial for bows. Maybe something for OP to look into...what do you guys think?

PowderBlue Don't worry if this talk is overwhelming. We'll help you out! For now, don't stress about or change hardness levels because doing it the wrong way can cause a lot more problems. And water changes are your best friend

 

Thanks everyone for your knowledge on my fish. Throwing the freeze dried and going with the frozen and live shrimp as soon as I can get to the lfs.
Is cuttlebone as good as wondershells? I ask because I have cuttlebone.
To answer the question of how they are doing today: I think they are seeing a bit because they are not bumping into the plants and seem to move away a bit when I put my hand my hand to glass.

 

Not as good as Wondershells. Cuttlebone would increase GH. But I don't think adding a piece (like 1/4 or half piece) will hurt since you have some. I add cuttlebone for my shrimp and snails. I just toss it in after rinsing, it floats at first, then sinks so you can hide it. Or put it in the filter, but I feel safer saying just to add it to the tank in case it dissolves too quickly in the filter and changes parameters too quickly. It might not be necessary, but it's been safe and beneficial in my tanks for critters that prefer more calcium and magnesium.

My 2 cents!

Wait, just thinking, you have a puffer in the same tank? They don't appreciate too harsh of hardness changes. So don't add too much if you do. But pea puffers, guppies and rainbow fish all like harder water (or a large range).

 

Update, bows ate today and cycle has started... again. Fed frozen brine shrimp to female, she ate what came close her mouth, male actually went after food (frozen blood worms, only because he would not eat shrimp) when not far from sight, sweet pea still has not ate but swimming around more.

 

That's a good update, right?

Have you tried feeding sweet pea with planting tweezers or wooden tongs or something? I even fed finicky fish by medicine dropper. Just gently squirt the bloodworms near them.

Bloodworms are great to entice fish to eat. You could even try adding a drop or two of garlic juice. Might help for sweet pea. But it's more keeping the parameters on par that improves their appetite.

What do you mean cycle started? Are you registering ammonia?

 

Yes, everything went to zero, checked this morning and ammonia registered. Hoping it gets straight quickly. Tried live white worms with dropped and then with tweezers, it's sweet peas fav, but he was not interested. Not sure if he can see yet. I do see his eyes twirling around as if looking at things.
What I meant by cycling again is, it was about three months before this it went through a cycle and not sure why. That was before I put the bows in. This cycle was my rookie mistake.

 

That's a good update, right?

Have you tried feeding sweet pea with planting tweezers or wooden tongs or something? I even fed finicky fish by medicine dropper. Just gently squirt the bloodworms near them.

Bloodworms are great to entice fish to eat. You could even try adding a drop or two of garlic juice. Might help for sweet pea. But it's more keeping the parameters on par that improves their appetite.

What do you mean cycle started? Are you registering ammonia?

What is garlic juice and what does that do? All this new stuff, you all are great help, thanks so much.

 

I'm willing to bet sweet pea can see, but it not yet interested in eating. Do you know about dosing Prime to keep ammonia in a safe state until nitrifying bacteria processes it? What is ammonia testing at now?

Garlic juice is just what it sounds like. Squeeze a couple drops from the clove into a shot glass of thawed bloodworms. Mix, let seep in a bit and offer to fish. Garlic enhances the taste to fish too! Plus a little is good for them. Helps beat internal and even external parasites to a certain degree as well.
http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/garlic-can-kill-parasites/

Oh and keep up with the great questions

 

I'm willing to bet sweet pea can see, but it not yet interested in eating. Do you know about dosing Prime to keep ammonia in a safe state until nitrifying bacteria processes it? What is ammonia testing at now?

Garlic juice is just what it sounds like. Squeeze a couple drops from the clove into a shot glass of thawed bloodworms. Mix, let seep in a bit and offer to fish. Garlic enhances the taste to fish too! Plus a little is good for them. Helps beat internal and even external parasites to a certain degree as well.
http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/garlic-can-kill-parasites/

Oh and keep up with the great questions

I use Prime for all water changes, was not aware that it kept ammonia safe, that is good to know. Just checked ammonia and it is between .25 ppm and .50 ppm. Nice article on garlic and I will have to get some. I think you are right about sweet pea being able to see, he moved away from me when I filled the test tube, silly little fishy. I guess he will let me know when he is hungry. Funny how the guppies have not been bothered by any of this. I guess that's just the way fish are sometime.

 

Here's a thought, I was going to check on my canister in the 36 gal bow front tank. Could I use one of the floss pads in my 29 gal to help with the cycle? It is a Penn Plax 750 and the 29 gal is a Penn Plax 500.
Any help before I mess that tank up also?...lol

 

Absolutely if the 36g is cycled and disease free. Adding filter media from an established tank is best way IMO to introduce good nitrifying bacteria. Can you take a piece of of floss pads instead of taking the whole pad away from the 36g all at once? Is there other type media?

 

I use Prime for all water changes, was not aware that it kept ammonia safe, that is good to know. Just checked ammonia and it is between .25 ppm and .50 ppm.

PH is still 6.8?
Have you ever tested your water source tap?
When was the last water change on the 29 gallon and how much?

Prime binds ammonia into a non-toxic form to protect the fish for 48hrs. If you've recently done a water change, you've probably added enough extra Prime to bind 0.25ppm ammonia at your pH level. (Ammonia toxicity increase with pH and temperature). Anyway, we can see if it goes down with added bacteria from the 36g.

And it never hurts to do a water change. If ammonia was 0.50pmm, I would do a 50% change (if tap water does not have ammonia). At 0.25ppm, I would add the seeded floss and test tomorrow.

 

Absolutely if the 36g is cycled and disease free. Adding filter media from an established tank is best way IMO to introduce good nitrifying bacteria. Can you take a piece of of floss pads instead of taking the whole pad away from the 36g all at once? Is there other type media?

36 is established and disease free, and I have bio rings in bottom and 2 floss pads in top basket.
Your angelfish are beautiful.

 

PH is still 6.8?
Have you ever tested your water source tap?
When was the last water change on the 29 gallon and how much?

Prime binds ammonia into a non-toxic form to protect the fish for 48hrs. If you've recently done a water change, you've probably added enough extra Prime to bind 0.25ppm ammonia at your pH level. (Ammonia toxicity increase with pH and temperature). Anyway, we can see if it goes down with added bacteria from the 36g.

And it never hurts to do a water change. If ammonia was 0.50pmm, I would do a 50% change (if tap water does not have ammonia). At 0.25ppm, I would add the seeded floss and test tomorrow.

Tap water is between the 7.2 and 7.6 on color chart ( API Freshwater master test kit is what I have) tank right now is, oh my, looks like 6.6. Now what?
And water change was 25% yesterday the 10th
Angelcraze thank you so much for all your help I really appreciate you. Hope I am not being to much of a bother, if so just let me know.

 

Yeah, if the 36g is good and cycled, I'd probably move one of the filter pads from the 36g to the 29 gallon filter. Replace 36g floss with a new one in case the 29 gallon has an outbreak, but I really don't think so, just precaution is what I'd do anyway.

PH is dropping most likely because of the ammonia being present (kinda nature's way of protecting things). Also your water is probably soft with a low KH. KH (carbonate hardness) is what keeps pH stable. When water has a low carbonate hardness, it puts pH at risk of fluctuating with parameter and condition changes- like the presence of ammonia.

Do you happen to have any crushed coral? I used to keep a small DIY pantyhose bag in my filters. Really small, like 1tsp per 30 gallons was enough for me.

For the numbers...ideally it's good to aI'm for a KH of 4 degrees minimum.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia?

Low pH also makes nitrification/cycling difficult.


Baking soda will immediately increase KH. It would probably increase pH too though. And not much is needed!
This article explains it well


I'd probably start with 1/8 teaspoon to be honest. And if ammonia is still 0.50ppm, and tap water does not test ammonia, I'd do a 50% change. Add the baking soda with the new water.

The standard dose of Prime will detoxify 1 ppm ammonia (5mL per 50 gallons of water). So if you dose full tank volume for a 50% water change, you are dosing to protect the remaining 0.25ppm. Prime keeps ammonia in a safe state for 48hrs.

It will settle down and stabilize eventually, hopefully soon! I no longer keep crushed coral in my filters and everything is consistent. If it interests you, KH tests are available to the aquarist here


Might as well get the GH too for that price.

And TDS meter


Thank you about my angelfish!!! I really appreciate that They are my favorite angels. And absolutely no worries, I love love love to help if I can! Just apologise for the book and hope I'm not overwhelming. When I started fishkeeping, I didn't know this and had to learn the hard way. Just trying to prevent that for others

 

Yeah, if the 36g is good and cycled, I'd probably move one of the filter pads from the 36g to the 29 gallon filter. Replace 36g floss with a new one in case the 29 gallon has an outbreak, but I really don't think so, just precaution is what I'd do anyway.

PH is dropping most likely because of the ammonia being present (kinda nature's way of protecting things). Also your water is probably soft with a low KH. KH (carbonate hardness) is what keeps pH stable. When water has a low carbonate hardness, it puts pH at risk of fluctuating with parameter and condition changes- like the presence of ammonia.

Do you happen to have any crushed coral? I used to keep a small DIY pantyhose bag in my filters. Really small, like 1tsp per 30 gallons was enough for me.

For the numbers...ideally it's good to aI'm for a KH of 4 degrees minimum.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia?

Low pH also makes nitrification/cycling difficult.


Baking soda will immediately increase KH. It would probably increase pH too though. And not much is needed!
This article explains it well


I'd probably start with 1/8 teaspoon to be honest. And if ammonia is still 0.50ppm, and tap water does not test ammonia, I'd do a 50% change. Add the baking soda with the new water.

You're very kind and I love the book...lol.
Where to begin? Crushed coral is scattered on bottom of tank, due to having mystery snails for awhile, till over run in babies. Lfs loved getting them.
0 ammonia in tap water, and I use Prime.
Oh goodness, just checked everything: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, a hint of nitrates (not yellow but not quit the 5 ppm), and Ph is back to 6.8. I will check Ph again in morning since I will be adding an 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda.
Question one: how to maintain a Ph of 7 ? I have read baking soda just spikes the Ph but does not maintain it.
Question two: say I get the tests for Gh/Kh and TDS, and they are off how do I maintain the correct numbers here, also?
Asking so I can get everything at one time.

The standard dose of Prime will detoxify 1 ppm ammonia (5mL per 50 gallons of water). So if you dose full tank volume for a 50% water change, you are dosing to protect the remaining 0.25ppm. Prime keeps ammonia in a safe state for 48hrs.

It will settle down and stabilize eventually, hopefully soon! I no longer keep crushed coral in my filters and everything is consistent. If it interests you, KH tests are available to the aquarist here


Might as well get the GH too for that price.

And TDS meter


Thank you about my angelfish!!! I really appreciate that They are my favorite angels. And absolutely no worries, I love love love to help if I can! Just apologise for the book and hope I'm not overwhelming. When I started fishkeeping, I didn't know this and had to learn the hard way. Just trying to prevent that for others

You're very kind and I love the book...lol.
Where to begin? Crushed coral is scattered on bottom of tank, due to having mystery snails for awhile, till over run in babies. Lfs loved getting them.

0 ammonia in tap water, and I use Prime.

Oh goodness, just checked everything: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, a hint of nitrates (not yellow but not quit the 5 ppm), and Ph is back to 6.8. I will check Ph again in morning since I will be adding an 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda.

Question one: how to maintain a Ph of 7 or better ?
(I have read baking soda just spikes the Ph but does not maintain it.)

Question two: say I get the tests for Gh/Kh and TDS, and they are off how do I maintain the correct numbers here, also?
Asking so I can get everything at one time.