Betta Sorority Problems

(I'm really sorry this is so long. I'm just worried and wanna be thorough and looking for advice.)

I posted not that long ago about a white spot on a ChilI Rasbora.

I started using Melafix, and it went away. It seemed like it was going well. The chin fin thing on one of my bettas, which was ripped when I got her, had healed soon after too.

So, I got 3 more bettas, as planed, since you're supposed to add them close to the same time. Unfortunately one of the newest ones died the next day pretty suddenly. (She was floating near the surface when I woke up, and looked like she couldn't get enough air, then sank, then was dead when I went to put her in a breeder box 30 seconds later.)

But, this morning, after I fed them, the one I've had the longest (Drogon), and eats too much, must have horded a lot of the food because she looked pretty bloated after, and she wasn't as active. Normally when she looks bloated, she's still active. So, when I got home from class, and I couldn't find her I got worried. She's usually first to come to the surface and I'm by the tank or open the lid. I looked under every decoration until I found her so I could put her in a breeder box so she wouldn't find anymore food that might be hidden and would be closer to the surface.

When I was googling to see if I could find any insight, I found this. I really hope I didn't kill that one fish with it because I was using the full dosage.

I can't tell if I'm paranoid because I'm seeing diseases everywhere.

https://imgur.com/a/i1prk

• The white and yellow one, Falkor looks like the edges of her fins are fraying. She's a bit bigger than the others, so I've never seen one chase her, let alone bite her. I don't think her fins are like that from nipping.
• The blue one is Akantosh. She has some white on the tips of her spiky fins.
• The one that looks like a mucky pink is actually white with a lot of blue or pink depending on the angle of the light. She is Puff. And, her chin fin has healed since I got her. But, her tail fin seems like it has a straight side that should be more circular. I know some fin rot is really straight.

I also have these bettas

• A red one named Smaug who has a little white dot on her fin at the very edge. She didn't wanna have her picture taken though.
• Drogon is in a breederbox so no pics. But she doesn't have any pine cone scales. She looks fine other than bloated. I am worried though because she's just kinda floating there. She is able to surface, but she hasn't moved from the corner. Normally she's very curious but she seems uninterested now.
• Rhaegal looks find though.

I also have a video I took of Paarthurnax right before she died. (I was gonna post it for diagnoses, but she died like 2 minute later.) She was so beautiful. And a video of Drogon. But, I couldn't upload it to imgur, and wasn't sure where to upload it. If it's important, I can figure it out.

So, what should I do?
Continue Melafix? Stop Melafix? Use less?
Add Pimafix?
Remove salt sensitive fish and add aquarium salt?

(Ammonia was less than .25 and PH was at 7.)
And I did have the temp at 80, but when I read that it should be lower, I changed it to 78, but it stayed at 80. So then I changed it to 72, and now the thermometer says 78. I have an air stone by the heater, but I don't think it should be creating that much of a temp difference. Idk what's up with that


Update: This morning I woke up and checked on Drogon... She was dead... She seemed to be doing better last night. Please help.

 

Bumping this up for ya
Oh and welcome to the forum!

 

I looked at the pictures and I don't see anything wrong. I would stop all meds immediately u til you know what you're treating. Yes, melafix can be dangerous to Bettas.

Why did you lower the temperature? Bettas are tropical fish and like it warm, 78-80 is ideal! Plus, fish immune function improves at the higher temperature

 

Thank you !

And . I have stopped the melafix. Are you sure you don't see anything? I've only had the gold one for a few days, but it seems like her fins should be jagged. And the blue one has some out of place white on her spikes (along with the red on who's not in any pictures).

And I know they should be around 78. But, I have it set to 82. Then I decided to lower it to maybe 76, 77 when I read bacteria is stronger in the warm. But, the thermometer read at 81 when it was at 76. Then the thermometer read at 78 when the heater was set to 72. I'd wait a full day before checking the temps... I must have a broken heater or a broken thermometer.
The water did feel cold last night so I set the thermometer back to 78. Now the thermometer reads 80-82. Idk what's up with that. I'll get a new one tomorrow. Hopefully it's the thermometer that's broken.

But, if those pics don't like like problems, when should I get worried and use meds? A lot of pics that come up when I google betta fin rot look pretty subtle, and every site says it's important to treat as soon as there's signs, but treating without signs is bad... It's all so. Confusing.

Bah. I want for them to be healthy so bad, but I'm so bad at keeping things alive.

 

Ok, I'm on the "real" computer instead of my phone and I can see the white you're talking about on the yellow one. I don't think that looks like fin rot, more like fin growth if anything. Gorgeous fish! I've never seen one so yellow

The second one looks ok.

The third one looks like she has a bit out of her fin but I don't see any disease processes at work so I think she'll heal just fine.

The thing with temperature is that though yes, the bad bacteria will grow better at those temperatures, good bacteria do as well! The good bacteria will help to keep your water parameters healthy among other duties and combined with the increased immune function in your fish the bad bacteria will have less of a chance to take hold. There are always bacteria, good and bad, living in your aquarium. The important thing is to keep your fish as healthy as possible so that the "bad" ones don't get the upper hand

I recommend an extra water change each week for a week or three to help your fish heal

 

Yeah. I looked at her every time I was at the pet store for two months. But now! Like just now!
One of her flappy fins just stopped working and she's not swimming well. This didn't happen to the others but now I'm afraid she's going to die.
I put her in the breeder box and it looks like maybe she has fuzzies on her side.


It's hard to see but it's like her flappy fin is pointing to it.

 

Is it fuzzy or is it possibly a scale sticking out? Is she staying upright on her own? How's her appetite?

 

I'll go try feeding her right now, but it's fuzzy. I moved her to a tank where melafix has never been used. She's with a paradise fish but they're separated. I'll also get a better pic.
5 mins.

She's not eating.




Close up of ^

 

Is her right pectoral fin missing? It looks like it's been bitten right down.

 

It's hard for me to tell because it's clear, but maybe. But. She's like 3 times bigger than the other fish. She was alpha... But the smallest one has been stepping up a bit. Okay. That small one is chasing the others right now!!!!
I think Drogon dying somehow screwed up the hierarchy even though she wasn't alpha.
I'll separate them.

This is so scary.
What else should I do?

Rheagal is so little and so mean...

 

Do you have a picture of the whole tank? Sororities maintain very strict hierarchies and any change to a member (death, removal, illness) and the whole thing has to be hashed out again to determine who is where on the power ladder. It's also important to have a lot of hiding places and things to block lines of sight, like tall plants and decorations.

 

It's a 40 gallon tank, so there's lots of space for 6, now 5, well, now 4, bettas to hide.

And there's a couple smaller decorations for hiding in in the back.

 

Ok, that looks pretty good. I would just leave everybody in the tank to work it out. Unless there's something else going on, like a disease or contaminant.

 

I'm thinking, the three together now are pretty chill now with the trouble maker in a plastic jail cell (who just as I typed this fit through the bars of the floor and is now stuck under the floor of it)...
So, I'll keep the little mean on imprisoned over night.
Tomorrow when help arrives, I'll clean a ten gallon I have that's empty, but filtering dirty old water. Then move everyone to the ten gallon. Do a big clean of the 40 gallon. Move everyone but Falkor (the hurt gold one) to the 40 gallon. Then let Falkor chill alone in the 10 gallon until she's better.

Does that sound good, or are there any major flaws in my plan?

Also. After I do this, should I get more bettas* so they can reestablish a healthy hierarchy, or should I wait a couple weeks? I'm not sure if this is a sooner than later thing, or a later than sooner thing.

That little one is too mean. Falkor was keeping it in it's place before. It's so freaking little, I can't believe it's being so mean to the others.

Also. Sorry to be asking you questions faster than you can answer, but you're honestly the most helpful person I have ever talked to ever.

Once I get Falkor alone, should I use anything to treat her fuzzys?
It looks like mold and it is scaring me to death.

 

Ooh, I see the fuzzy patch now! I have no idea what to make of that. Could it be columnaris? CindiL, was it you who recently dealt with this? I haven't so I don't know.



I would definitely use the 10 gallon as a QT but see if you can move some cycled media into it so your sick fish doesn't have to go through the stress of a cycle while battling her illness. I may be though that your 40 is already "infected" and it may just be better to treat them all in the home tank.

Then when that's over, you need more females to spread out the aggression

 

Oh god, I hope it's not columnaris. I've been paranoid from the second I heard of it when a tetra had a white bump forever ago...
And I just put her in with the paradise fish!! They're separated but still!

The ten gallon was filtered, then we took out the filter pad and stuck it next to the new filters pad. I put a new filter pad in there a couple weeks ago, so it might be. It has the same gravel as before, and heater.

Should I put new water in the 10 gallon now, or leave her in with the paradise fish because now that tank is infected too?

I'm going to have a heart attack over this.

 

I feel the same way about my fish! Took me years to finally learn how to keep fish alive, then I got excited about having a sorority, then I read about all the horrible things that can happen and it took me months to actually do it. There have been moments of stress since I did it but it's mostly been a positive experience

It might not be Columnaris, I wouldn't panic just yet. I've had a similar fluff grow on an injury. It could be some other bacteria. Just keep the water clean and let the fish fight it off herself until someone can give you a better answer than mine about how best to tackle this. Clean water is most important no matter what though

 

It absolutely didn't help that I had a calc final today. I probably got 0% because I was thinking about my fish the whole time.

But she can't have had that injury for long. I might not have noticed this morning because of Drogons death. But I would have noticed if it was like that last night. But, none of the other fish have fuzzies. So, that's probably good. And the tank Falkor is in now, is small (8.8g) but well established. I just hope the sight of Moby, the albino Gourami isn't stressing her out. He's pretty evil looking.

Also. I totally forgot to mention this. I have two fiddler crabs. One with a broken claw. (The pet store people said my tank was fine as long as they can surface, and I have floating moss balls that they get on, but I now know they need different water), Anyways. While, I have only seem them run from the fish and try to scare them away, it is possible that a crab did this to Falkor. (I still think it was the little betta, Rheagal though.) This is probably stupid, but maybe I should put a rubber band on his claw? As far as I can tell, he only uses it to wave in the air to scare stuff (usually fake plants) away. I'll probably eventually get them a special crab tank or pawn them on someone else (half kidding).


Also thank you again for taking the time to help me. I knew that a sorority would have challenges. But, once I found of Drogon was a girl, I just had to get her sisters, so I got the 40 gallon. I figured with a tank 4 times the minimum for a sorority, and an under-stocked tank, it wouldn't be so hard... I probably killed the 2 with melafix via my own paranoia. :/ I looked up "Melafix and snail" "melafix and peppered cory" and somehow I forgot to look up the most important one: "Melafix and betta." :/

It's like every time I make a choice, it's the wrong one.

 

There are way too many variables in this hobby to be able to remember them all. The best you can do is learn as much as you can about the fish you have (and you are learning about the fish you have!) and try to remember those. Plus what you learn is liable to change so you have a great chance to be wrong again in the future

The fiddler crabs I would get out of the tank ASAP. They could well have caused that damage and honestly, the only other time I saw something like this it was damage caused by a teeny tiny crayfish to my biggest, baddest betta girl! The way those claws work gives them an unbelievable amount of power for their size.

Hope you did better than you think on your calculus exam, that stuff's important

 

Thank you. You're very nice.

Yeah. Tomorrow, when I move everyone around, (musical tanks) to clean everything, I'll try to get them alone. That or the one with a working claw is getting rubber banded like a lobster... For the first 4 or 5 days, I did nothing but watch them, then I had to study.. It's like they knew I stopped watching and the fight club began... They acted like peaceful vegetarians when I saw them. All they did was dance by waving their arms and roll around on the marimo balls. They always warned the fish who pass by. I was more afraid of them getting eaten.

But, then again, Rheagal was trying to be dominant despite her little size. After I moved Falkor, I saw her flaring and chasing the others.

I think this is a mystery for Sherlock Holmes.

Anyways. I think I'm set for the night. Thank you so much for the help!!!
I'll post tomorrow if any new problems pop up.

 

Does she continue the chase or is she just warning them away to protect herself?

 

It's a bit hard to tell, because there are a lot of hiding spots. If anyone is guilty of the continued chasing, it's Falkor. But that was rare. But. Rheagal, the littlest betta has been most nippy. I saw where harass Falkor a bit, and Falkor, was just kinda like "Really?" Normally Falkor eventually gets annoyed and chases her away. Same with the others. Falkor was def alpha, but she usually didn't wanna chase Rhegal far, because Rheagal likes the area by the Filter, and Falkor does not.
But, after I removed Falkor, I looked over and saw Rhegal flaring and chasing.
Usually it just looks like Rhegal is annoying them. But this time it was different.

I know that all bettas are different. And also, I probably don't know them as well as I think I do. But, I was just thinking that since Rheagal smallest, she will partially grow up around them and get used to them, so the vicious streak will tone down. I've only had her and Falkor for 6 days now. The other three for 14 days. And Drogon, I was given early March.

 

HI there. Just to rule out water parameters will you test your tank for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and ph and post them here?

Based on what you've described with the gasping at the surface then pretty motionless before death and now the fuzz on your yellow one I would actually treat for columnaris. The deaths alone would prompt me to treat.

Don't panic

There are four different strains of columnaris, some move slowly, others quickly. Based on your deaths I would think yours is moving a little quicker. It is treatable. I did have it recently and lost about 50% of my fish but it was super fast moving. I have stopped it and have no more deaths going on. Even if its a different bacteria then columnaris, the antibiotics will treat a wide variety.

I'm not sure what you have access to but the preferred treatment for this disease is kanamycin and nitrofurazone (combined) though I did treat my tank for 10 days with Maracyn II (minocycline) after doing ten days of kanaplex dosed food with continued deaths and after the Maracyn II there have been no more. Do you see any white fuzzy algae on your plants or decorations? Often goes along with the disease though not always. Columnaris bacteria is actually in all tank environments but weakness, injury, the stress of being introduced to a new tank can allow it to take hold. It is actually an aerobic bacteria and thrives in clean aquariums, so its probably unrelated to your tank maintenance.

I would leave them in the 40 gallon and treat. After the first 5 days I would add in your other new bettas and treat for another 5 days so the whole tank population is covered.

Mardel Maracyn II is usually pretty easy to find (minocycline). My other choice would be Kanaplex. API Furan-2 is nitrofurazone and would work. Just want to give you choices of treatment. It does reproduce faster in warmer environments so maybe just lower the temp to 77 or so. I would trust your thermometer over the heater setting as they are often miscalibrated.

Lastly here is some information on the disease:

 

Well. The first one to die was gulping air at the surface. No fuzzies. It died last Sunday.

The second one was just bloated but able to swim. And wasn't at the surface any more than usual. It died Wednesday night/ Thursday Morning.

The only one with fuzzies was Falkor who died this morning. But the fuzzies were by an injury and appeared at the same time as the injury. Also, the fuzzies weren't like the pictures of columnaris. Those pics look thick. On Falkor, it was like, little white likes like a dandelion Taraxacum thingie. And she didn't have any bloating or need for more air than usual. It died Thursday night/ Friday morning (today).

I know it is completely possible they all had different symptoms of the same thing. But, I had a total of around 13 fish. You'd think some would get sick and die at the same time. Not one at a time.

Other than the three fish who died, no one else appears sick. But I also know that each of the others were fine, then died within 12 hours of showing symptoms.


I just woke up. I'll test the water again in a bit after coffee and food. And, unless you reply and have changed your mind about it before then, I'll still go to the store later and pick up the medication.
The Ammonia has probably gone up a bit just because I haven't done a water change yet, after my fish died yesterday. But it was tested after the first fish died and it was okay. I'll post again in an hour or so.
Thank you for helping me.

 

To me, rapid deaths like that (within 12 hours.) shows bacterial. And just fyI columnaris is a tricky one and depending on the strain the majority of fish may show no symptoms. With mine, none had thick white fuzz. They didn't die suddenly but over a two to three week span. I think the faster the death the fewer the symptoms. In a couple I saw what looked like a small amount of slime coat around their gill covers but other than that I would notice them hovering a bit or sitting some and then the next day they would be dead.
If it was my tank I would treat. Make sure to remove carbon or purigen and if you have a UV filter turn it off. You can wait but three deaths seems more than coincidence. It wouldn't be normal to have fuzz where that sore was either. That would point to bacteria also.

 

I'm still in the middle of breakfast, but I just wanted to add that there's a tetra with its mouth at the surface. I'm not sure what's wrong with it. But, now that I'm thinking about it, a chilI rasbora was doing that right before it got eaten by Falkor, but that was a few days ago.

And as I was typing this I saw the tetra jump out of the water twice... That's weird. Never seen that before from any fish.

 

I'd test the water to be sure there isn't ammonia or nitrites now.

 

Okay. We did the water tests.
Ammonia wasn't quite zero. It was closer 0 than it was to 0.25.
Nitrates and nitrites were both 0. (I know one is supposed to be 5 though.)
PH is now at 7.2. If it's anything like my 10 gallon, it will go up .2 every week until it hits 7.6. (And I did used the high range PH test on the ten gallon to make sure it wasn't any higher than that.)

So. I guess I'll do a water change. If not for the ammonia, then to get out whatever is left of the Melafix.
Later I'll go to the store and look for Kanamycin, nitrofurazone or Maracyn II and Kanaplex.
(Does that sound right?)

I don't have a UV filter. But, what is carbon? I remember reading something about activated carbon when first installing it and reading the directions. It's just a quiet flow 30. I don't have any fancy filtration stuff. Just the standard filter.

Also. That sick tetra flopped right to the crab, who's now eating it. Should I put them in the 10 gallon and get them some aquarium salt while I'm at it? (It was the one when a broken claw, so I'm not sure if a rubber band would do the tick.)

 

I would definitely remove the crab.

The quiet flow stock cartridge has carbon in it. How long has it been in your tank? If a month or more, I wouldn't worry about it doing much. Just FYI if you want to quit buying those expensive cartridges you can replace it with a fluval sponge. The C4 fits almost perfectly with just a tiny bit of trimming and will last a good year with weekly rinsings in old tank or dechlorinated tap. If you decide to do that, cut off the floss from around the old cartridge frame and put it with the new sponge so it seeds it. After a few weeks you can toss the floss.

Yeah, just look for Maracyn II or Kanaplex, you can combine Furan II (nitrofurazone) with either of them.

 

Your tetra might also have jumped if it felt threatened from below. Having predators (bettas and crabs) in the tank could explain that behaviour.

 

Well. I just got home from the pet store, and they said I'd have to order it online. Which I did. The fastest option was 2 day shipping, so Furan 2 will be here on Monday and Maracyn 2 will be here on Tuesday. :/

Luckily no one new has gotten sick yet.

Any home remedies I can maybe use in the mean time? Like, garlic soaked food? smaller does of Melafix or Primafix?


The tetra was just hanging out at the surface for like an hour. It was jumping toward the crab who was at the surface. The pet store here has these foam balls covered in java moss that I got a while back and the crabs hang out on there. That crab who got it only has the upper half of its claw, so I don't know how he even go the fish onto the ball.

The tetras lived in my ten gallon with my betta, and when everyone got moved to the 40, they didn't even acknowledge each other (except a few times when the tetras tried to school with Smaug). If I had seen any such signs of distress in one that wasn't already sick, or multiples, I would have removed them. I think it was just sick and about to die... (In the ten g, sometimes Drogon would chase them, but only a bit, and I saw them take food from her mouth, so they weren't too scared of her. Plus, I only had them because they belonged to my friend, and her male betta wasn't getting along with them in her 2.5 tank.)

The crabs are going to be moved today though. I feel pretty stupid about getting them. I spent a lot of time looking how how the dwarf crayfish get along with fish. Most of what I read said the most they can do to a betta is take a little ride on its fin fins, causing small rips, but it was rare. (That or they said they were keeping it in a 2.5 gallon with a betta when it killed it.) But in my head I was thinking, "Fiddler crab is 2 inch clawed creature = same as dwarf cray." I didn't take into account they have a massive claw. Dumb dumb dumb.

But other than that sick looking tetra, today has been uneventful in the tank. Everyone is pretty calm. Rhegal seems to be trying to chase the other bettas through her plastic prison.

(Sorry his message was so long though. I'm just not sure what could be important so I'm not filtering what I write much.)

 

Honestly I don't think mela or pimafix are very useful for anything, other than a tear in a fin to help healing so I wouldn't use it.

 

Okay. I'll just wait then. If no one else gets sick before then, should I not used the medication? Or do you think the risk of them being infected but asymptomatic is worth medicating them still?

 

I'd say see how the rest do over the next couple of days until you receive it.

 

Actually, Puff died since I sent that. She didn't really have symptoms. She just got a bit lethargic. Just a little bit. Then died...
It seems like they had been dying in order biggest to smallest.

I looked it up and apparently as fry they mostly depend on their gills then their labyrinth begins to develop a couple months in. Makes me think this illness is causing their labyrinth organ to fail. But that wouldn't explain the tetra.

Anyways. Once I get the medication, do you think I should also medicate my moms tank because I put Falkor in there before she died? I know the paradise fish in there is closely related to bettas. Plus, I wouldn't notice if he got sick, because he's in another room, and he already lays on the ground a lot. (I'm not sure if that's normal, but he's always done it.) Plus he's albino so white fuzz would be hard for me to see. Or, are these kind of things usually contagious through physical contact? (She was in a floating plastic prison thing.)

 

More and more seems like columnaris to me. It will travel through the water and depending on each of their immune systems will determine how fast they succumb.
I guess it would depend how soon after he was in that tank that he died.

 

I put her in the tank shortly before bed and she was dead when I woke up.
Luckily no one new seems to have gotten sick since Puff died. I'm still going to medicate them though.


Also, CiniL and Aquaphobia. Thank you again for helping me with all of this. I would have been completely lost without you.

Okay. So the Furan-2 is here and the other stuff is supposed to be here later today.
The directions say to remove the filter media and then after 2 days, replace with fresh filter media.
I think it means the cartridge thing in the filter by filter media. But, if I put a new one in, won't it have activated carbon that will effect the other medication?


So, should I follow the instructions regarding the filter, or should I just leave in the cartage? (I'll probably take the filter cartridge out in the mean time, and not throw it away until I hear back).

And if I should remove then replace, does that mean I should hold off on getting more bettas for longer than 5 days because it would basically an uncycled tank after the treatment is done?

 

How are this fish looking? Who is left?

It just means carbon, so you can put the regular media back in. If you have a combo cartridge, just cut a slit in it and dump the carbon out then put the "empty" cartridge back in. It should not hurt your cycle.....I had no problems with nitrofurazone in that regard when I used it.

Is this only bettas left in the tank now? Dose for the actual volume of the water and not the tank size, i.e., usually you have less water in the tank then stated on the size of the tank.

 

My fish:
Everyone other than 4 who died before. Puff was the last to die. So, 4 bettas total died and 1 tetra. (and some rasboras maybe unrelated).

Of the three bettas left, two have white on the edges on their fins. Not fuzzy. Looks more like. Maybe it's fading away/fin rot.

And I still have the 4 tetras and 1 chilI rasbora. Plus a peppered cory, a couple snails, and I'm supposed to have 2 amano shrimp, but I have only seen 1 since I moved them to the new tank. Idk if it died and got eaten, or if I've seen them both but not at the same time. And I have an ember tetra I forgot to return that was supposed to be a rasbora. The chilI might be sick like that tetra was. It goes between acting weird at the surface and schooling with the ember tetra.

(I did have 5 rasboras, and I know one got eaten before the deaths when I decided to make them fast for a day... Then I could only find three when I went to move them to the 10 gallon. Then 2 vanished in the ten gallon... I checked the filter and rocked.)

But a ton of white stuff has appeared on the decorations. White stringy stuff. Like cob webs.

Filter:
I have the filter cartridge that came with the quiet flow 30 in it, and the cartridge from my quiet flow 10 in it sorta stacked. Is that what you mean by combo? They have both been in use longer than a month.
The medication does say it may affect the bio filter, but it might mean because it says to replace it.
In any case, I'll take your word for it.

Medication:
I have a 40 gallon breeder tank, and according to a stocking calculator site, it actually has 45 gallons of volume. But it's filled maybe an inch lower. So, I'm thinking that's close enough to 40 gallons. The medication is in packets for each 10 gallons. It would be pretty difficult to measure the tank or the medication to any further precision I think.
And I bought two boxes for a total of 20 packets, so if I want to treat my mom's 8.8 gallon, that'll be close to the exact amount of packets I got.

 

Ahh, that white stuff seems to go hand in hand with columnaris. I had it and another person recently had it. It is actually bacteria and not a fungus, which sometimes it looks like.

No, by combo I mean if you buy the premade aqueon cartridges there is carbon inside the filter pad. Just cut a slit in the foam and dump it in the garbage and then put the frame with the foam back in. Honestly though, if they've been in there for a month I don't think they'll cause you any issues. Carbon doesn't last very long and they only give you a small amount.