Help Betta Has Strange Discoloration. Please Help!

bettafish247

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These first two photos are of Obie "before" the whitish color patch of scales behind his head.

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These last two photos are of Obie "after" the recent scale discoloration developed behind his head. See circled in yellow in photo below.
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Tank

What is the water volume of the tank? 13 lbs (5.5 gal tank)
How long has the tank been running? 1 year
Does it have a filter? yes
Does it have a heater? yes
What is the water temperature? 80 degrees
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) 1 male half moon betta fish, 2 marimo moss balls.

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every two weeks and as needed
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem Prime, Garlic Guard, Stress Guard, Flourish. API Quickstart, API Aquarium Salt, Boyd Enterprises Vitachem. Kordon Fish Protector.
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Both

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? No but it's been fully cycled, balanced and tested for many months.
What do you use to test the water? API test kit for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
pH: 7.4 - 7.5

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Twice daily. Fasts one day a week.
How much do you feed your fish? 3-4 pellets OR blood worms OR daphnia - about the size of his stomach
What brand of food do you feed your fish? NorthFin pellets and HikarI freeze-dried
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? pellets and freeze-dried

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 1 year
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 3-4 days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? no symptoms yet. only visible appearance change.
Have you started any treatment for the illness? no
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? no behavior change so far, appearance change only. Strange scale discoloration

Explain your emergency situation in detail. (Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

A few days ago, my betta developed a strange discoloration on the scales behind his head. It is a rather large spot that's whitish, cloudy and semi-transparent. It has not changed in size or shape since the first day. Perhaps the only change I've seen visibly is it got less whitish and closer to his normal scale colors. His behavior has not altered. He still behaves like he's healthy and active.

Could this have been caused by him simply bumping into something? If so, will it just heal on its own?

I don't think it's Ich. It's not a bunch of tiny white dots, just the one patch. I don't think it's lymphocystis either. The patch doesn't have an opaque, bulging, cauliflower or fuzzy/cotton look. It's smooth and flush against his body. But if someone thinks it may be something I tried to rule out here please enlighten me!

WHAT IS THIS AND WHAT TREATMENT DOES HE NEED? COULD IT POSSIBLY CLEAR UP ON ITS OWN? WHAT CAN I DO FOR HIM? THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

Also, it's time for me to change his water and vacuum the gravel, but I don't want to cause any stress if he may be ill. Do you think it's safe for me to clean his tank now? (He normally has NO trouble with me doing anything in his tank. He's fearless. Always curiously swimming right into the middle of the action instead of away and hiding)

Previous health history: My betta has had torn fins for a long time. They first began to shred when I moved him from his 1.5 gal tank to his current 5.5 gal. I tried several safe treatments when I thought he possibly had fin rot or another bacterial infection. Now, I don't think he was ever sick with an infection before, but he hasn't grown his fins back.

I've taken every possible precaution in setting up and maintaining his tank. I covered the filter intake with soft material and added a baffle so the outflow was gentle. The bubbles from his bubbler are tiny and gentle. He loves to bite and chase them a lot. I've sanded down his ornaments to great extent and his plants are all artificial silk. It's a safe environment, but he still plays rough and hasn't been able to regrow his fins back to their full glory. He's a very vigorous, active boy with an eager appetite (I'm careful to never overfeed).

Even though he's been fine otherwise, could his fins that have been continuously torn for months have caused this white discoloration?
 

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Can you post some before/after photos? Could be a natural color change if he is behaving normally and otherwise fine.
 
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bettafish247

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Demeter said:
Can you post some before/after photos? Could be a natural color change if he is behaving normally and otherwise fine.
Ok. I finished updating the situation with photos etc in my original post. Could this be a natural color change if it is a patch like this though?
 

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Ok so not a normal color change, could be a skin infection though. Is he acting itchy at all? As for possible treatments, I'd likely try some medicated baths. Methylene blue can be used for most minor skin/fin issues, salt baths may help too.
 
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Demeter said:
Ok so not a normal color change, could be a skin infection though. Is he acting itchy at all? As for possible treatments, I'd likely try some medicated baths. Methylene blue can be used for most minor skin/fin issues, salt baths may help too.
No I haven't seen him acting like he's itchy. No scratching/rubbing on anything.

I add API freshwater aquarium salt to his tank every time I do a water change, but I don't think this is what you consider a "salt bath" right? What is the salt bath treatment you recommend?

I haven't tried Methylene blue before. Do you have to remove your filter cartridge while adding it? If yes, how long do you have to keep the cartridge out before putting it back in?

As a kind of "medicated bath", I did try a 3% peroxide treatment, 3 times in December to try to treat his fins, in case he had fin rot. It didn't do anything. I also used up a bottle of Seachem StressGuard, but that had no effect on his fins either. I have API Furan-2. I used it after I tried the peroxide treatments when I thought he had fin rot. I hoped it would improve his fins and help them grow back. I couldn't tell that it helped anything.

Does anyone recommend I try this API Furan-2 again? Or do the peroxide treatment again? Or StressGuard? Or simply a series of water changes - like 50% changed daily for 5 days or something? Other ideas to treat this scale discoloration?
 

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I'd probably try Paraguard first since I think MB can stain... It's a dye. I'd probably use it in a QT tank.

Furan-2 is probably worth a try to see if it's a bacterial thing, plus you have it on hand.

It could be a fungus, but it sounds like it's not growing on the scales?
 

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bettafish247 said:
Also, why are your nitrates at zero? When did you last do a water change? Nitrates mean nitrites have been converted to nitrates, so I'm confused. If you water change every 2 weeks, I'd expect some nitrates.

bettafish247 said:
Do you use these with each water change?

bettafish247 said:
I add API freshwater aquarium salt to his tank every time I do a water change
Why? What is your reason for this?
 
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CheshireKat said:
I'd probably try Paraguard first since I think MB can stain... It's a dye. I'd probably use it in a QT tank.

Furan-2 is probably worth a try to see if it's a bacterial thing, plus you have it on hand.

It could be a fungus, but it sounds like it's not growing on the scales?
I suppose I could try the Furan-2 first sure. I haven't heard of Paraguard. Why do you suggest putting him in a QT tank to add it? Is it because it might alter the nitrogen cycle? Or because I would otherwise have to take the filter cartridge out of his tank filter? Or?

It could be a fungus. I'm really not sure if it's growing on top of the scales or if his scales have just been changed. If it's growing on top, it is super thin because it is pretty much flush against his body.
 

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bettafish247 said:
do you suggest putting him in a QT tank to add it?
Well, with the methylene blue, because it's blue and a dye, it may stain or discolor stuff in your aquarium.

Paraguard treats bacteria, fungus, external parasites, and viruses. It's safe to use in the main tank and I've used it with live plants and snails. It's not super strong, either, to the point where it's a last resort sort of thing, and I've used it myself. Well, for the fish, not for me.

There's lots of different kinds of bacteria and fungi, so it's hard to say what med is best to use in a particular circumstance.
Furan-2 is wide-spectrum antibacterial as it treats some gram-negative and some gram-positive bacterial issues. chewy's product description says "It contains two furan compounds, effective antimicrobials that combat gill disease, mouth fungus, furunculosis, black molly disease, fin and tail rot and dropsy."
 
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CheshireKat said:
Also, why are your nitrates at zero? When did you last do a water change? Nitrates mean nitrites have been converted to nitrates, so I'm confused. If you water change every 2 weeks, I'd expect some nitrates.


Do you use these with each water change?


Why? What is your reason for this?
Sometimes my water changes are more like every 2-3 weeks. The water tests show everything balanced normally. So I've been able to change the water out less frequently since the need is less. I last changed it on 8/6 and I'll change it again asap. I just want to be sure he's not too sick and needs to be left alone before I change it again.

With each water change, I use: Seachem Prime, API Quickstart, API Aquarium Salt, and Kordon Fish Protector. I haven't used StressGuard for months. I add Flourish to his tank once a week or less often for his marimo moss balls. I use Vitachem an Garlic Guard only with certain feedings.

I add the freshwater aquarium salt with each water change because of my research. I read aquarium salt is especially good for bettas with fin rot. Iv'e continued using it since it helps in healing other diseases too. It's not harmful in small amounts. It also reduces nitrite, promotes healthy gill function and increases electrolytes which improve overall health. Instead of the salt irritating the skin to force them to create extra slime coat, it really helps them make more slime naturally. I recommend reading some FishLore VIP and Valued, Well Known Members comments. I believe they back this up and make a lot of sense! Here's a link to a forum about using salt. Perhaps this will help debunk some myths about it.

Medicine Or Salt To Cure Betta - Ok Let’s Settle This
 
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CheshireKat said:
Well, with the methylene blue, because it's blue and a dye, it may stain or discolor stuff in your aquarium.

Paraguard treats bacteria, fungus, external parasites, and viruses. It's safe to use in the main tank and I've used it with live plants and snails. It's not super strong, either, to the point where it's a last resort sort of thing, and I've used it myself. Well, for the fish, not for me.

There's lots of different kinds of bacteria and fungi, so it's hard to say what med is best to use in a particular circumstance.
Furan-2 is wide-spectrum antibacterial as it treats some gram-negative and some gram-positive bacterial issues. chewy's product description says "It contains two furan compounds, effective antimicrobials that combat gill disease, mouth fungus, furunculosis, black molly disease, fin and tail rot and dropsy."
Alright, so I just won't use methylene blue. I think I used it years ago and didn't like it anyway. I guess I'll try the Furan-2 since I already have it but I'll be happy to try the Paraguard if the other treatment isn't successful. Paraguard definitely sounds like a good one, especially since it's hard to diagnose what kind of fungI or bacteria this might be. And it might cover a broader spectrum of illnesses than Furan-2.

I haven't fully decided on my course of action yet though. I'm still open to suggestions for now but I will start treating my betta today or tomorrow. Thanks for the input!! Any other thoughts anyone?
 

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bettafish247 said:
Sometimes my water changes are more like every 2-3 weeks. The water tests show everything balanced normally. So I've been able to change the water out less frequently since the need is less. I last changed it on 8/6 and I'll change it again asap. I just want to be sure he's not too
It's commonly recommend changing every week, but I don't think it's essential. I know lots of people who only change when nitrates reach a certain level; some well-known YouTubers such as Cory from Aquarium Co-Op have suggested doing this at around 40ppm. I think you're fine. My issue is the fact that you have 0 nitrates. Do you always have 0?

bettafish247 said:
With each water change, I use: Seachem Prime, API Quickstart, API Aquarium Salt, and Kordon Fish Protector.
If your tank is properly cycled and maintained and the fish healthy, I don't see the point in adding Quickstart or even the Kordon.

bettafish247 said:
I add the freshwater aquarium salt with each water change because of my research. I read aquarium salt is especially good for bettas with fin rot. Iv'e continued using it since it helps in healing other diseases too. It's not harmful in small amounts. It also reduces nitrite, promotes healthy gill function and increases electrolytes which improve overall health. Instead of the salt irritating the skin to force them to create extra slime coat, it really helps them make more slime naturally. I recommend reading some FishLore VIP and Valued, Well Known Members comments. I believe they back this up and make a lot of sense! Here's a link to a forum about using salt. Perhaps this will help debunk some myths about it.

Medicine Or Salt To Cure Betta - Ok Let’s Settle This
You're assuming I don't already know all this. I was just curious as to your reasoning. Sometimes people do things because they heard or read or was recommended it and don't know what they're actually doing or why they're doing it. I know the uses and potential benefits, but I have very hard water with lots of minerals already in it and my fish don't have any true need for additional salt--and I have platies and mollies, which are very often advised or even said to require salt (not true). Plus salt is only removed through water changes, so it can build up. I'm bad at keeping track of things.
Although I'm a big fan of "better-safe-than-sorry" and "just-in-case" philosophies, I also am an advocate of the "don't-do-what's-not-absolutely-necessary" philosophy. I'm pretty lazy and also don't trust products or add-ons to do everything for me. Preventative measures can do more harm than good, so I try not to give in. These are just my preferences and beliefs. I just wanted to find out more info cuz, as I said, sometimes people don't think for themselves and/or do research on their own and blindly follow advice or recommendations without any real knowledge and then wonder why something is going wrong.
 
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CheshireKat said:
It's commonly recommend changing every week, but I don't think it's essential. I know lots of people who only change when nitrates reach a certain level; some well-known YouTubers such as Cory from Aquarium Co-Op have suggested doing this at around 40ppm. I think you're fine. My issue is the fact that you have 0 nitrates. Do you always have 0?


If your tank is properly cycled and maintained and the fish healthy, I don't see the point in adding Quickstart or even the Kordon.


You're assuming I don't already know all this. I was just curious as to your reasoning. Sometimes people do things because they heard or read or was recommended it and don't know what they're actually doing or why they're doing it. I know the uses and potential benefits, but I have very hard water with lots of minerals already in it and my fish don't have any true need for additional salt--and I have platies and mollies, which are very often advised or even said to require salt (not true). Plus salt is only removed through water changes, so it can build up. I'm bad at keeping track of things.
Although I'm a big fan of "better-safe-than-sorry" and "just-in-case" philosophies, I also am an advocate of the "don't-do-what's-not-absolutely-necessary" philosophy. I'm pretty lazy and also don't trust products or add-ons to do everything for me. Preventative measures can do more harm than good, so I try not to give in. These are just my preferences and beliefs. I just wanted to find out more info cuz, as I said, sometimes people don't think for themselves and/or do research on their own and blindly follow advice or recommendations without any real knowledge and then wonder why something is going wrong.
So I just thought I'd go ahead and explain my stand on freshwater aquarium salt clearly. I've been in other forums on Fishlore and there was a wide debate on salt. I've seen it create some big discussions before! I thought I'd explain my own reasons so you wouldn't have to ask me more questions about it. I did a lot of research and engaged in debates to hear the variety of knowledge and opinions from others to form my own understanding and make a decision on whether or not it was best to add salt to my betta tank.
 
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CheshireKat said:
It's commonly recommend changing every week, but I don't think it's essential. I know lots of people who only change when nitrates reach a certain level; some well-known YouTubers such as Cory from Aquarium Co-Op have suggested doing this at around 40ppm. I think you're fine. My issue is the fact that you have 0 nitrates. Do you always have 0?

It's hard to say for sure if I always have 0. Since the results are based on comparing the color of water in the tube with the color on the test kit card. The results are only as clear as one's eyesight. So as far as I can tell, it's 0 ppm or pretty low, like maybe to 5ppm ish. Also, I've heard others say that the results from the API Master Test kit for ammonia, pH, nitrite and nitrate can be a little off from the true water conditions.

Whenever I can, I use natural remedies first. For example, I always have mopanI wood and marimo moss balls in his tank to naturally help balance the bacteria and ph, emit oxygen and reduce nitrates. I'd be happy to do any natural medicinal things I can to help my betta, but it sounds like I need to do a wide-spectrum not-so-natural treatment like Furan-2 or Paraguard since it's unclear what kind of fungal or bacterial problem he may have. At least to start.
 

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bettafish247 said:
So I just thought I'd go ahead and explain my stand on freshwater aquarium salt clearly. I've been in other forums on Fishlore and there was a wide debate on salt. I've seen it create some big discussions before! I thought I'd explain my own reasons so you wouldn't have to ask me more questions about it. I did a lot of research and engaged in debates to hear the variety of knowledge and opinions from others to form my own understanding and make a decision on whether or not it was best to add salt to my betta tank.
That's fine, no big deal. As long as you understand the pros and cons and have done plenty of research, as you evidently have done, it's not my place to say anything as the decision is totally up to you. Too many people just go along with what others say and I help people all the time who don't understand what they're doing and sometimes end up making their fish worse or sick, so I feel the need to question anything that puts up flags for me and make sure that's not the case.

Your second post quotes me but doesn't have anything written..
 
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CheshireKat said:
That's fine, no big deal. As long as you understand the pros and cons and have done plenty of research, as you evidently have done, it's not my place to say anything as the decision is totally up to you. Too many people just go along with what others say and I help people all the time who don't understand what they're doing and sometimes end up making their fish worse or sick, so I feel the need to question anything that puts up flags for me and make sure that's not the case.

Your second post quotes me but doesn't have anything written..
It's nice of you to try and help and teach people so they can make better informed decisions for their fish care. Thanks for helping me too.
As for the part where you said I didn't have anything written, I did write something. But I probably put it in a weird place between paragraphs by accident. I'll try putting up your note and my response again. Is this a response you haven't seen yet?
"It's commonly recommend changing every week, but I don't think it's essential. I know lots of people who only change when nitrates reach a certain level; some well-known YouTubers such as Cory from Aquarium Co-Op have suggested doing this at around 40ppm. I think you're fine. My issue is the fact that you have 0 nitrates. Do you always have 0?

It's hard to say for sure if I always have 0. Since the results are based on comparing the color of water in the tube with the color on the test kit card. The results are only as clear as one's eyesight. So as far as I can tell, it's 0 ppm or pretty low, like maybe to 5ppm ish. Also, I've heard others say that the results from the API Master Test kit for ammonia, pH, nitrite and nitrate can be a little off from the true water conditions.

Whenever I can, I use natural remedies first. For example, I always have mopanI wood and marimo moss balls in his tank to naturally help balance the bacteria and ph, emit oxygen and reduce nitrates. I'd be happy to do any natural medicinal things I can to help my betta, but it sounds like I need to do a wide-spectrum not-so-natural treatment like Furan-2 or Paraguard since it's unclear what kind of fungal or bacterial problem he may have. At least to start."
 

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bettafish247 said:
It's nice of you to try and help and teach people so they can make better informed decisions for their fish care. Thanks for helping me too.
As for the part where you said I didn't have anything written, I did write something. But I probably put it in a weird place between paragraphs by accident. I'll try putting up your note and my response again. Is this a response you haven't seen yet?
"It's commonly recommend changing every week, but I don't think it's essential. I know lots of people who only change when nitrates reach a certain level; some well-known YouTubers such as Cory from Aquarium Co-Op have suggested doing this at around 40ppm. I think you're fine. My issue is the fact that you have 0 nitrates. Do you always have 0?

It's hard to say for sure if I always have 0. Since the results are based on comparing the color of water in the tube with the color on the test kit card. The results are only as clear as one's eyesight. So as far as I can tell, it's 0 ppm or pretty low, like maybe to 5ppm ish. Also, I've heard others say that the results from the API Master Test kit for ammonia, pH, nitrite and nitrate can be a little off from the true water conditions.

Whenever I can, I use natural remedies first. For example, I always have mopanI wood and marimo moss balls in his tank to naturally help balance the bacteria and ph, emit oxygen and reduce nitrates. I'd be happy to do any natural medicinal things I can to help my betta, but it sounds like I need to do a wide-spectrum not-so-natural treatment like Furan-2 or Paraguard since it's unclear what kind of fungal or bacterial problem he may have. At least to start."
Ah, somehow your reply got inside the quote box and I didn't bother expanding it since I know what I wrote.

I'm more inclined to do gentle remedies more than completely natural, myself. Things like Melafix, Pimafix, Bettafix are weak natural products that a lot of people rave about for minor things and healing but are often not effective against serious or real issues. I see people post all the time about how they tried those and their fish isn't getting any better. I guess that's why I'm put off since I've never tried them.
On the other hand, I never recommend antibiotics or stronger meds unless I know for sure it's needed like with dropsy and in some cases of bad Popeye, or until other treatments have made tried first. Things like Kanaplex (kanamycin) that are absorbed internally make me wary using without knowing if it's necessary since I don't like to subject my fish's internal organs to meds unless it's necessary. Plus bacteria and such do become immune to these meds; overuse of fish antibiotics is why countries like Canada, the UK, and I think Australia, to mention a few, have bans on them and other fish meds, which sucks when they're needed.
 
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CheshireKat said:
Ah, somehow your reply got inside the quote box and I didn't bother expanding it since I know what I wrote.

I'm more inclined to do gentle remedies more than completely natural, myself. Things like Melafix, Pimafix, Bettafix are weak natural products that a lot of people rave about for minor things and healing but are often not effective against serious or real issues. I see people post all the time about how they tried those and their fish isn't getting any better. I guess that's why I'm put off since I've never tried them.
On the other hand, I never recommend antibiotics or stronger meds unless I know for sure it's needed like with dropsy and in some cases of bad Popeye, or until other treatments have made tried first. Things like Kanaplex (kanamycin) that are absorbed internally make me wary using without knowing if it's necessary since I don't like to subject my fish's internal organs to meds unless it's necessary. Plus bacteria and such do become immune to these meds; overuse of fish antibiotics is why countries like Canada, the UK, and I think Australia, to mention a few, have bans on them and other fish meds, which sucks when they're needed.
Well I'd say your approach sounds very good to me. I like to use other gentle remedies too like Seachem products. I hope this doesn't turn into something serious and need antibiotics. But if I do need some, I hope there's something not banned that I can get. What's the name of a good available one? I think it'd just be good to know in the offchance I need some later on. Kanaplex or something else?

I gave him the 2nd of 4, Furan-2 doses tonight and noticed the patch seems to have grown in size. It's now extending down his back along his spine. His behavior is perhaps a little different too. He's resting more. Not quite as active as his normal self. Still a good appetite though. I turned off his Life Flow internal power filter when I added the meds. Do you think that's necessary or could I leave it on to flow through the filter cartridge? Or how soon could I turn it back on after adding the meds? I'm putting it straight into his tank, not in a quarantine tank.
 

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bettafish247 said:
I turned off his Life Flow internal power filter when I added the meds. Do you think that's necessary or could I leave it on to flow through the filter cartridge? Or how soon could I turn it back on after adding the meds
Do you have a filter cartridge with activated carbon in it? If so, the carbon will remove the med from the water, so that's a problem. Also, does the cartridge or media remain wet when you turn it off? If it dries out, bacteria might die. I actually turn my filter off on my 25 gallon nearly every night so food doesn't get sucked up before the fish can eat it (my filter is 2x more than needed for this tank size, so it's really strong). I don't have any problems doing this for less than an hour, but everyone's setups are different. Just something to be cautious about. Just reread you have an internal filter...
If you don't have carbon, I believe Furan-2 is filter safe and the filter can still be run while medicating.

Kanaplex can treat bacterial infections and you could use it. Paraguard is pretty broad-spectrum as it can treat various external parasites, bacterial infections, fungus, and viruses. I'd personally try that first if Furan-2 doesn't work. Speaking of which, you might as well finish up the furan-2 treatment before moving on.

Actual salt baths might be something you'd want to try. You could do those in conjunction with the furan treatment.
 
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CheshireKat said:
Do you have a filter cartridge with activated carbon in it? If so, the carbon will remove the med from the water, so that's a problem. Also, does the cartridge or media remain wet when you turn it off? If it dries out, bacteria might die. I actually turn my filter off on my 25 gallon nearly every night so food doesn't get sucked up before the fish can eat it (my filter is 2x more than needed for this tank size, so it's really strong). I don't have any problems doing this for less than an hour, but everyone's setups are different. Just something to be cautious about. Just reread you have an internal filter...
If you don't have carbon, I believe Furan-2 is filter safe and the filter can still be run while medicating.

Kanaplex can treat bacterial infections and you could use it. Paraguard is pretty broad-spectrum as it can treat various external parasites, bacterial infections, fungus, and viruses. I'd personally try that first if Furan-2 doesn't work. Speaking of which, you might as well finish up the furan-2 treatment before moving on.

Actual salt baths might be something you'd want to try. You could do those in conjunction with the furan treatment.
My cartridge DOES have activated carbon in it. So I guess I have to not run the filter until the Furan-2 doses are completed in the next 48 hours. :/ I just hope having his filter off for a total of 96 hours doesn't mess up his tank's bacteria or nitrogen cycle etc.

Ok my game plan is currently: finish Furan-2 doses. If that's ineffective, try Paraguard. If that doesn't work, I can try Kanaplex. After the last dose of of these treatments, how long would you expect it would take to see results if one medicine is helping? If one medicine is not helping, how long should I wait before trying out the next one?

What do you recommend for the salt bath treatment? Do you mean use epsom salt? How is that done?
Thanks again.
 

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bettafish247 said:
I just hope having his filter off for a total of 96 hours doesn't mess up his tank's bacteria or nitrogen cycle etc.
Well, I was addressing that in the part that is striked out... Until I saw you have an internal filter. As long as that remains wet and in the tank, the bacteria will have enough food and water to sustain itself. I believe the carbon needs water flowing through it to work, so leaving it in there until the treatment is done should be fine.

bettafish247 said:
After the last dose of of these treatments, how long would you expect it would take to see results if one medicine is helping? If one medicine is not helping, how long should I wait before trying out the next one?
First, finish each treatment as directed. Stopping midway because you don't think it's doing anything (or because you think it worked) is a common mistake people make. There's a reason why the product has you do what the directions say.
Paraguard is gentle enough that it can be used for a month or until you see results. For my betta's cloudy eye, I saw results the next day and it cleared up entirely in under a week (I treated for a whole week just to be safe; just because the eye looked better didn't mean all the bacteria is gone). It's effective but not the strongest, which means it's unlikely to be overkill. I'd at least give it a couple weeks before moving on to something stronger.

I do mean aquarium salt baths. Epsom salt is good for reducing swelling, drawing fluids out of the body, and as a laxative. It's not an antiseptic sort of thing like with salt.
You can just follow the directions on the package. I dissolve it in a separate (1 gallon Dollar Tree) container and add the fish in. I have Fritz A+ Aquarium Salt and it says for a 2.5% saline bath for external parasites, add 1/2 cup salt to 1 gallon of water and immerse fish for 15-20 minutes. Of course, you're not treating parasites, so you may not want to do that strong of a bath, so a teaspoon to a tablespoon might be better. It's for a short period of time, so a stronger dose than you'd put in the main tank would be necessary. Since you've done so much research on salt, you can probably make a judgment call yourself.
 
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CheshireKat said:
Well, I was addressing that in the part that is striked out... Until I saw you have an internal filter. As long as that remains wet and in the tank, the bacteria will have enough food and water to sustain itself. I believe the carbon needs water flowing through it to work, so leaving it in there until the treatment is done should be fine.


First, finish each treatment as directed. Stopping midway because you don't think it's doing anything (or because you think it worked) is a common mistake people make. There's a reason why the product has you do what the directions say.
Paraguard is gentle enough that it can be used for a month or until you see results. For my betta's cloudy eye, I saw results the next day and it cleared up entirely in under a week (I treated for a whole week just to be safe; just because the eye looked better didn't mean all the bacteria is gone). It's effective but not the strongest, which means it's unlikely to be overkill. I'd at least give it a couple weeks before moving on to something stronger.

I do mean aquarium salt baths. Epsom salt is good for reducing swelling, drawing fluids out of the body, and as a laxative. It's not an antiseptic sort of thing like with salt.
You can just follow the directions on the package. I dissolve it in a separate (1 gallon Dollar Tree) container and add the fish in. I have Fritz A+ Aquarium Salt and it says for a 2.5% saline bath for external parasites, add 1/2 cup salt to 1 gallon of water and immerse fish for 15-20 minutes. Of course, you're not treating parasites, so you may not want to do that strong of a bath, so a teaspoon to a tablespoon might be better. It's for a short period of time, so a stronger dose than you'd put in the main tank would be necessary. Since you've done so much research on salt, you can probably make a judgment call yourself.
Alright then. I'm going to keep up the Furan-2 through the recommended doses. I think I'll go ahead and buy some Paraguard. It'll be a good one to have on hand and ready if it's needed after the Furan-2.

As for the salt bath, for the 1 gallon of water in a separate container that you're putting your fish into, I assume you're using dechlorinated/treated water (like for a normal water change for the tank) rather than used tank water right? However, when I scoop him from his tank to the 1 gal container, I'd really rather use a small cup to transfer him instead of a net, especially since he may be ill. I've actually never ever used a net with him to avoid any stress or damage. But I know that using a cup means some of his used tank water will go into the 1 gal container. So that messes up the ratio of salt to water. How should I adjust that? Or maybe just doing a tablespoon of salt with the 1 gal of water (plus a little used tank water) is still ok.

Also, unless he seems too ill, I'm going to do his big monthly tank cleaning tomorrow. I'll vacuum the gravel and water and change 50% of the water. He's due for it and I'm hoping the fresher, conditioned water and scum removal will aid in his healing and help the meds work better too. I'm just hoping the activity doesn't make him worse. He's normally not stressed at all by thorough tank cleanings and rearrangements. Do you think it's a bad or good idea to do this now?
 

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bettafish247 said:
I assume you're using dechlorinated/treated water (like for a normal water change for the tank) rather than used tank water right?
Yeah, that's what I do. You could use tank water but I personally prefer using fresh water so I know nothing from the tank will affect the bath.
bettafish247 said:
But I know that using a cup means some of his used tank water will go into the 1 gal container. So that messes up the ratio of salt to water
I don't think it's going to be that significant. Pour as much water out of the cup as you can and then pour him in the bath. Or you can scoop him out of the cup with your hand and put him in the bath. If you're doing a tablespoon, you're doing a strong dosage, so there won't be a big impact on the salinity treatment.

bettafish247 said:
you think it's a bad or good idea to do this now?
Maybe wait until after the Furan-2 treatments? Then do the cleaning and run your filter with carbon for like a day before starting another treatment.
My only concern is that any debris stirred up might not be beneficial. I'm pretty sure that's how my betta got cloudy eye; I think he might've injured it then got an infection when I did a gravel vacuumed because he developed it the day after I cleaned his tank. If your betta already has an infection or is suspectible, he may get worse. But at the same time, it might help....
 
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CheshireKat said:
Yeah, that's what I do. You could use tank water but I personally prefer using fresh water so I know nothing from the tank will affect the bath.

I don't think it's going to be that significant. Pour as much water out of the cup as you can and then pour him in the bath. Or you can scoop him out of the cup with your hand and put him in the bath. If you're doing a tablespoon, you're doing a strong dosage, so there won't be a big impact on the salinity treatment.


Maybe wait until after the Furan-2 treatments? Then do the cleaning and run your filter with carbon for like a day before starting another treatment.
My only concern is that any debris stirred up might not be beneficial. I'm pretty sure that's how my betta got cloudy eye; I think he might've injured it then got an infection when I did a gravel vacuumed because he developed it the day after I cleaned his tank. If your betta already has an infection or is suspectible, he may get worse. But at the same time, it
Alright. That sounds like a good plan. I preferred to use fresh, dechlorinated water for the salt bath anyway. So I'll do that and scoop him into it with just enough tank water to gently transfer and not stress him out. And yes I'll wait to do it after the the rest of the Furan-2 treatments which will be Monday. I bought some Paraguard. And I can start treating him with that on Tuesday if it looks like he still needs something.

If stirring up debris during a tank cleaning is a possible concern while he may have an infection, I can just move him into the same freshwater 1 gal tank I'll use for the salt bath. Then he can stay clear of the debris til I'm finished cleaning and it settles. Plus, whenever I'm in there cleaning, he's usually right in the way because he's such a curious, nosy boy!

This morning, I made an unpleasant discovery. There is something that look like tiny living worms in his tank! They are white/clear and about as thick as a human hair. I think I only saw a couple and I'm sure they're alive because I could see them wiggling. I attached a couple photos but it's still hard to see them. I circled one in yellow. The other shows it next to a thumbnail.They're so tiny. So now I'm wondering if these things are parasitic and causing his white patch and inactivity. Or perhaps they are harmless? What do you think they are and how can I (if possible) get rid of them? Do you think it's bad if he eats them? I haven't seen him eating them but he may be. Detritus worms maybe? Nematodes? I don't think they're planaria because they don't have that triangular planaria head shape. I'm just starting to research what kind of worms these might be.Thanks again!
20190824_110157.jpg
20190824_123549.jpg
 

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You're welcome, glad I can help.
Hopefully the furan-2 will do the trick.
Bettas will eat worms for sure. I have heard of a worm that stings; I'm not sure if that's safe or not. I don't have a lot of experience with worms in the tank. I have had things like that show up on the glass walls but they disappeared after awhile and I think after a cleaning so I don't think they were harmful. Plus my fish weren't exhibiting signs of illness or anything. Let me know what your research comes up with. The timing of these worms and your betta's white patch is suspicious but could be coincidental.
 
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CheshireKat said:
You're welcome, glad I can help.
Hopefully the furan-2 will do the trick.
Bettas will eat worms for sure. I have heard of a worm that stings; I'm not sure if that's safe or not. I don't have a lot of experience with worms in the tank. I have had things like that show up on the glass walls but they disappeared after awhile and I think after a cleaning so I don't think they were harmful. Plus my fish weren't exhibiting signs of illness or anything. Let me know what your research comes up with. The timing of these worms and your betta's white patch is suspicious but could be coincidental.
I'm thinking the worms are coincidental. I found what seems to be a knowledgeable article with people's discussions and experience at the bottom. I attached a link to the webpage if you want to read any of it. I think what I can conclude is the worms I have are most likely harmless. It's not a serious infestation and I can probably rid them from the tank when I vacuum the gravel next. I haven't seen them before now because they're so tiny, they like to hide in the dark and I don't think they've been there for long.

 
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CheshireKat said:
Well, I was addressing that in the part that is striked out... Until I saw you have an internal filter. As long as that remains wet and in the tank, the bacteria will have enough food and water to sustain itself. I believe the carbon needs water flowing through it to work, so leaving it in there until the treatment is done should be fine.


First, finish each treatment as directed. Stopping midway because you don't think it's doing anything (or because you think it worked) is a common mistake people make. There's a reason why the product has you do what the directions say.
Paraguard is gentle enough that it can be used for a month or until you see results. For my betta's cloudy eye, I saw results the next day and it cleared up entirely in under a week (I treated for a whole week just to be safe; just because the eye looked better didn't mean all the bacteria is gone). It's effective but not the strongest, which means it's unlikely to be overkill. I'd at least give it a couple weeks before moving on to something stronger.

I do mean aquarium salt baths. Epsom salt is good for reducing swelling, drawing fluids out of the body, and as a laxative. It's not an antiseptic sort of thing like with salt.
You can just follow the directions on the package. I dissolve it in a separate (1 gallon Dollar Tree) container and add the fish in. I have Fritz A+ Aquarium Salt and it says for a 2.5% saline bath for external parasites, add 1/2 cup salt to 1 gallon of water and immerse fish for 15-20 minutes. Of course, you're not treating parasites, so you may not want to do that strong of a bath, so a teaspoon to a tablespoon might be better. It's for a short period of time, so a stronger dose than you'd put in the main tank would be necessary. Since you've done so much research on salt, you can probably make a judgment call yourself.
I've given him his first salt bath today. How many more do you recommend I do? Like once daily for how many days - or what do you suggest? Or were you only suggesting to do this salt bath one time?
 

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Usually salt baths are done for many days, I think until improvement is shown or when it seems to have no effect. I'd do at least one for a few days to a week to see if there's any change or effect. You're doing a pretty strong saline treatment so I think one would be enough per day. I worry about too much salt exposure for a betta. My Mollies or my platies, I'd be less concerned about.
 
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CheshireKat said:
Usually salt baths are done for many days, I think until improvement is shown or when it seems to have no effect. I'd do at least one for a few days to a week to see if there's any change or effect. You're doing a pretty strong saline treatment so I think one would be enough per day. I worry about too much salt exposure for a betta. My Mollies or my platies, I'd be less concerned about.
Alright then. I'll keep going with the salt baths daily for now. I'll just keep an eye on his condition and decide when it's best to stop. Perhaps it is best to reduce the salinity a bit from a tablespoon. That's fine. I'll do that. I'm not too worried about the salinity with him though because he is so used to having some in his normal tank.
 

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I know this sounds stupid, but does it look a bit like it's crusty? I think my betta has the same thing going on. He's got these weird white spots that are flush with his body. When I shine a light on him he looks at bit crusty in spots for lack of a better word. I thought it might be velvet, but I'm not sure and I know it isn't Ich (I've seen that before). When I got him he had the spots along with fin rot. I put him a hospital tank and treated with Furan 2 and Kanaplex for 10 days. While his fins are starting to look great again the white spots remain. I even took him to my local fish specialty store they said they thought it was scale damage but it doesn't seem to get any better.
I will be following your post!
 

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BettaMum said:
I know this sounds stupid, but does it look a bit like it's crusty? I think my betta has the same thing going on. He's got these weird white spots that are flush with his body. When I shine a light on him he looks at bit crusty in spots for lack of a better word. I thought it might be velvet, but I'm not sure and I know it isn't Ich (I've seen that before). When I got him he had the spots along with fin rot. I put him a hospital tank and treated with Furan 2 and Kanaplex for 10 days. While his fins are starting to look great again the white spots remain. I even took him to my local fish specialty store they said they thought it was scale damage but it doesn't seem to get any better. I will try and post a better picture later, but you can see two spots in the picture.
fwbettashm1564547283.jpg

I will be following your post!
I wouldn't use the word "crusty" to describe the appearance of the white patch on my betta. It's smooth and flush with his body. I've just read about a fish disease I didn't know of before called Columnaris, or Saddleback disease. Perhaps both our bettas have this. Part of the white patch on my fish is on his back (which makes me think of the saddleback part), between his head and dorsal fin. It's also on his side and I think the overall size of the patch is growing. I believe columnaris can appear on any part of the fish. When you attach another picture I'd like to take a closer look at the white spots. From what I can see in your picture, I think I agree that it's not velvet or ich. Another thing with columnaris is it makes fish susceptible to secondary infections. So it's good to keep an eye out for signs of more than one disease at a time, like columnaris + fin rot. If your fish does have columnaris, some of the recommended treatments, and maybe the best for it, are Furan 2 and Kanaplex - which you're already doing so that's good!
 
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BettaMum said:
Aww thanks! I think you're baby is pretty awesome too! I know what you mean. I feel as though I need a degree in ichthiology! I will try putting a post out there thanks! Maybe somebody has run into this before. I originally though columnaris too but it hasn't really responded to treatment (although it did fix his tail and fin rot). I did find another possibility they mentioned Saprolegnia. It's some sort of fungus that looks very similar to columnaris but rather than rapidly killing your fish it moves very slowly. Comes from poor water quality.

I hope you find something that works for your baby!
Oh I haven't heard of Saprolegnia. I see that it can be confused with columnaris. I'll keep reading about both and learn the differences. Unfortunately, the the link you sent me doesn't seem to be able to open. Thanks for your comments and well wishes.

Yesterday, I did a 50% water change, vacuumed gravel, switched out tank ornaments (but not all to keep good bacteria growth), filter cartridge change and other scrubbing. I just started using Paraguard today after a 25% water change with water vacuuming. I gave him a salt bath too. I think all this cleaning up, trying to get the water as pristine as possible (and removing as many of those worms as I can! I think I got most of em) and perhaps the aid of the salt baths has helped him get better. I don't think he's all clear yet but his discoloration has changed. His normal scale colors appear to be coming back through. What's especially encouraging is his behavior. He's gotten more active and is interested in chasing bubbles again. I think this combination of treatments has definitely caused these improvements, as they probably would in other bacterial/fungal cases too. Maybe you're already doing things like this to your tank right now, but if not, perhaps they would help you too (or rather I mean doing some of these things to your main tank and other things to your hospital tank), with your own judgment on what's best.
 

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bettafish247 said:
I don't think he's all clear yet but his discoloration has changed. His normal scale colors appear to be coming back through. What's especially encouraging is his behavior. He's gotten more active and is interested in chasing bubbles again. I think this combination of treatments has definitely caused these improvements, as they probably would in other bacterial/fungal cases too.
Oh yay! I'm glad to read that! The furan-2 and salt baths sounds like they helped for sure and the Paraguard may help clear up anything left over. Time seems like it'll be the best indicator and healer now.
 

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bettafish247 said:
Oh I haven't heard of Saprolegnia. I see that it can be confused with columnaris. I'll keep reading about both and learn the differences. Unfortunately, the the link you sent me doesn't seem to be able to open. Thanks for your comments and well wishes.

Yesterday, I did a 50% water change, vacuumed gravel, switched out tank ornaments (but not all to keep good bacteria growth), filter cartridge change and other scrubbing. I just started using Paraguard today after a 25% water change with water vacuuming. I gave him a salt bath too. I think all this cleaning up, trying to get the water as pristine as possible (and removing as many of those worms as I can! I think I got most of em) and perhaps the aid of the salt baths has helped him get better. I don't think he's all clear yet but his discoloration has changed. His normal scale colors appear to be coming back through. What's especially encouraging is his behavior. He's gotten more active and is interested in chasing bubbles again. I think this combination of treatments has definitely caused these improvements, as they probably would in other bacterial/fungal cases too. Maybe you're already doing things like this to your tank right now, but if not, perhaps they would help you too (or rather I mean doing some of these things to your main tank and other things to your hospital tank), with your own judgment on what's best.
I'm so glad he's doing better, that's very encouraging! They seem to have a lot of good information on that site. I went with your suggestion to put up a post - Thank you! So far the consensus is wait and see if it gets worse - it may be natural coloring or scale damage.
Isn't it funny how much we end up loving these little guys!
 
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CheshireKat said:
Oh yay! I'm glad to read that! The furan-2 and salt baths sounds like they helped for sure and the Paraguard may help clear up anything left over. Time seems like it'll be the best indicator and healer now.
I agree. Continuing the Paraguard and salt baths and time is probably the best thing now. Thank you
 
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BettaMum said:
I'm so glad he's doing better, that's very encouraging! They seem to have a lot of good information on that site. I went with your suggestion to put up a post - Thank you! So far the consensus is wait and see if it gets worse - it may be natural coloring or scale damage.
Isn't it funny how much we end up loving these little guys!
It sure is. They really do have a lot of personality! Waiting and watching is so hard to do when they're sick. But patiently observing as others suggested may very well be the next best move. Perhaps this can even clear up on its own if he's left undisturbed for awhile. Sometimes simply avoiding stress on the fish is a big aid in their healing. Best of luck to you. Hoping and praying he gets better quick!
 

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bettafish247 said:
It sure is. They really do have a lot of personality!
Yes. It's been two weeks since I found my blue-teal-lilac Veiltail female betta on the other side of the divider, missing her tail and all fins, barely breathing. I cried so hard and she died within a few minutes of me finding her... Probably a blessing since her chances of recovering were slI'm and I don't know how or if I could have put her down. But she might've been lying there all day; I'd been sick and sleeping so I hadn't checked on her before, didn't even think to. I like my other bettas, but I had a soft spot for her in particular.

I had no idea how much I loved that fish until I saw her in that condition and I'm still not over it. My beautiful, lively, silly girl...
 

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CheshireKat said:
Yes. It's been two weeks since I found my blue-teal-lilac Veiltail female betta on the other side of the divider, missing her tail and all fins, barely breathing. I cried so hard and she died within a few minutes of me finding her... Probably a blessing since her chances of recovering were slI'm and I don't know how or if I could have put her down. But she might've been lying there all day; I'd been sick and sleeping so I hadn't checked on her before, didn't even think to. I like my other bettas, but I had a soft spot for her in particular.

I had no idea how much I loved that fish until I saw her in that condition and I'm still not over it. My beautiful, lively, silly girl...
That is so SAD!! I am so sorry for your loss..That is just an awful way to find your little buddy
 

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CheshireKat said:
Yes. It's been two weeks since I found my blue-teal-lilac Veiltail female betta on the other side of the divider, missing her tail and all fins, barely breathing. I cried so hard and she died within a few minutes of me finding her... Probably a blessing since her chances of recovering were slI'm and I don't know how or if I could have put her down. But she might've been lying there all day; I'd been sick and sleeping so I hadn't checked on her before, didn't even think to. I like my other bettas, but I had a soft spot for her in particular.

I had no idea how much I loved that fish until I saw her in that condition and I'm still not over it. My beautiful, lively, silly girl...
I'm so sorry to hear that!
 
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CheshireKat said:
Yes. It's been two weeks since I found my blue-teal-lilac Veiltail female betta on the other side of the divider, missing her tail and all fins, barely breathing. I cried so hard and she died within a few minutes of me finding her... Probably a blessing since her chances of recovering were slI'm and I don't know how or if I could have put her down. But she might've been lying there all day; I'd been sick and sleeping so I hadn't checked on her before, didn't even think to. I like my other bettas, but I had a soft spot for her in particular.

I had no idea how much I loved that fish until I saw her in that condition and I'm still not over it. My beautiful, lively, silly girl...
What a terrible thing to go through. I'm really sorry for your loss. I wouldn't expect you to get over it quickly. They're like a little piece of our family. I hope you don't feel bad about how you found her. Sure sounds like it's just tragic and not your fault. The end is always sad, but it does get better over time. You remember the good things about them easily and more than the painful things that happened. I hope you will feel better soon and take comfort in enjoying your other fishies
 

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