Betta Disease

LowieTheLoach

Member
So my second betta from Petco just died from velvet. The first one died from dropsy. In between the two I did a thorough tank cleaning and large water change.

The tank is a 10 gallon that's moderately planted. The temp stays right about 80°and it's fully cycled. My parameters are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and between 5 and 10 nitrates. It's been running for months, the previous inhabitants were moved to a larger tank.

I tried treating the velvet with imagitarium parasite remedy and kept the tank dark. The poor guy kept getting worse. I ordered kanaplex but it hasn't arrived. I'm wondering if I should go ahead and treat the tank once it arrives? I'm planning on tearing down the tank and doing a bleach dip on the plants. The substrate I'm just going to throw out. Anything else I should do before setting it back up?

I'm pretty frustrated right now. I feel like these guys can only thrive in deplorable conditions. My friend's kid has a betta in a tiny, dirty tank and they haven't had a single issue.
 

Georgie Girl

Member
I'm sorry you've lost your fishes, Lowie. I don't have an answer for you re what to do with your tank, but it's obvious you care very much. I'm sure you'll make the right decisions.
 

Mcasella

Member
They can thrive in a bigger tank, but you have to remember the bettas sold now are mutts, they breed them for color and tail type aspects (laughable though the names they give them) without thought to health. The best thing to do is not pick up a sick betta (I know they tug at the heartstrings but if you don't know what is wrong with them illness wise avoid them), go for recently brought in and healthiest looking ones.
My strongest, thriveist, betta is a male I got from Wal-Mart out of pity (he was in about an inch of dirty water that was likely over 1ppm ammonia, his fins were curled and pinned which he has recovered from), he is a bright orange red color and is the most aggressive betta I have.
 

Laxin10

Member
I understand your pain. When I was first getting into the hobby with a betta, I had the same problem. I remembered my betta in a bowl that lived for 6 years when I was a kid, and couldn't understand why my bettas in a filtered and heated 10 gallon couldn't sustain them.

I agree with Mcasella, the bettas being sold at walmart and petco nowadays simply aren't worth it. I recommend going to a proper fish store and choosing from a better breeder.
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
Mcasella said:
They can thrive in a bigger tank, but you have to remember the bettas sold now are mutts, they breed them for color and tail type aspects (laughable though the names they give them) without thought to health. The best thing to do is not pick up a sick betta (I know they tug at the heartstrings but if you don't know what is wrong with them illness wise avoid them), go for recently brought in and healthiest looking ones.
My strongest, thriveist, betta is a male I got from Wal-Mart out of pity (he was in about an inch of dirty water that was likely over 1ppm ammonia, his fins were curled and pinned which he has recovered from), he is a bright orange red color and is the most aggressive betta I have.
I tried to pick out the healthiest, most active betta they had. The velvet showed up a couple days after I got him.
 

DutchAquarium

Member
You can still get betta splendens with good genetics, your just not going to find them at petco. Aquabid has a lot of good breeders. As for cleaning the aquarium, make sure to clean the filter box also, a lot of people seem to forget about replacing the media
 

leftswerve

Member
It's interesting, between the two Petco's in our area, one has a great looking betta "display" and the other has an endcap. The display one always has so much nicer fish. Wonder if that is an outside company keeping up with it?
 

xloe

Member
I tried with 2 bettas from petsmart. Both showed signs of illness within days of bringing them home. I took them back (and felt terrible about it).
Then I stocked my 10 gal with something else, but now I have acquired another 10 gallon (oops) and am kind of itching to buy one of the gorgeous $35 bettas from the more reliable lfs an hour away.
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
Laxin10 said:
I understand your pain. When I was first getting into the hobby with a betta, I had the same problem. I remembered my betta in a bowl that lived for 6 years when I was a kid, and couldn't understand why my bettas in a filtered and heated 10 gallon couldn't sustain them.

I agree with Mcasella, the bettas being sold at walmart and petco nowadays simply aren't worth it. I recommend going to a proper fish store and choosing from a better breeder.
I think I'm going to stay away from betas for now. I'll have to check out the 10 gallon stocking list before I decide what to do next. I like the idea of a pair of dwarf puffers but I'd rather not keep something at the bare minimum tank size. I loved how interactive the bettas were and I'd like something with lots of personality.
 

Mcasella

Member
LowieTheLoach said:
I tried to pick out the healthiest, most active betta they had. The velvet showed up a couple days after I got him.
Take a light with you and shine it on the fish to see if they have the start of velvet (I have had to pry a fish with velvet from someones hand before explaining what they would have to do to get the fish healed and helped them pick another while taking that betta over to the sink to try and treat).
Sometimes you can find a very nice/healthy fish that sits there and flexes its good health for several years, sometimes you get one that within a week have thirteen different diseases. It is pretty much a lottery with any store bought bettas (even mom and pop type stores, there are only so many suppliers and many mom/pop places order from the same as the chain stores, local breeders are about the only way to go, import bettas are weak to the different water conditions and can die in 6 months or less (the oldest import betta I had was 2 years old when she passed after a long battle with dropsy, she wasn't what I ordered but she was a great little fish).
 

Fanatic

Member
Okay, but why do we need to be going against PetCo?
They haven't done anything wrong, or started the cause of your bettas dying.

If you didn't buy them sickened, then you cannot just blame PetCo.
I am not blaming you either, just making a little statement.
 

Hunter1

Member
I have opposite story.

I bought mine from what I believe is the best lfs with 1.5 hours of my house. He was so weak he seemed to struggle to get to the top of a 20 long. Within a couple of days, he was cruising the tank constantly.

Only been 2 months but he is fine, healthy and seems to be happy.

IMO good quality water conditions are the key.

Maybe I got lucky, maybe tomorrow he’ll get sick but I believe he’s going to live a long happy life and may even breed :)
 

trainandfishguy

Member
I have 2 bettas that I got from Petco. Both are in 5 gallon tanks all by themselves. Both are healthy, active and thriving. It may just be your petco that has issues. I have bought some of my healthiest fish there. That said, I know the guys that work at mine (Pasadena, CA). They know what they are doing, keep their tanks pristine and their fish are always healthy.
 

xloe

Member
DutchAquarium said:
You can still get betta splendens with good genetics, your just not going to find them at petco. Aquabid has a lot of good breeders. As for cleaning the aquarium, make sure to clean the filter box also, a lot of people seem to forget about replacing the media
Do you know of any good sellers in particular? I have checked aquabid on occasion and most bettas seemed to be from overseas.
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
Fanatic said:
Okay, but why do we need to be going against PetCo?
They haven't done anything wrong, or started the cause of your bettas dying.

If you didn't buy them sickened, then you cannot just blame PetCo.
I am not blaming you either, just making a little statement.
I'm just frustrated with them at the moment. Two bettas dying in a tank that had happy, healthy fish makes me a little suspicious. I was probably just unlucky and picked two that were already carrying yucky stuff. It's probably not Petco's fault, they have a few good employees that genuinely care. However, this is also the store that suggested 2 Chinese algae eaters for a 10 gallon tank. Managed to rehome 1, the other is still in my 55g. Their knowledge and quality of stock is hit or miss, honestly. Of course, I'm only talking about the Petco near me. I'm sure that each one is different. When I'm ready for new fish I'll suck it up and drive to a better LFS in Austin.
 

Fanatic

Member
LowieTheLoach said:
I'm just frustrated with them at the moment. Two bettas dying in a tank that had happy, healthy fish makes me a little suspicious. I was probably just unlucky and picked two that were already carrying yucky stuff. It's probably not Petco's fault, they have a few good employees that genuinely care. However, this is also the store that suggested 2 Chinese algae eaters for a 10 gallon tank. Managed to rehome 1, the other is still in my 55g. Their knowledge and quality of stock is hit or miss, honestly. Of course, I'm only talking about the Petco near me. I'm sure that each one is different. When I'm ready for new fish I'll suck it up and drive to a better LFS in Austin.

Yes, because PetCo didn't physically make them sick, it's just that the betta could've been unhealthy at that time, or caught something unexpected.
It doesn't help that they do keep them in those little containers. Although, most of the times those containers are pretty clean.
 

trainandfishguy

Member
xloe said:
Do you know of any good sellers in particular? I have checked aquabid on occasion and most bettas seemed to be from overseas.
I have seen some on ebay but they seem to be more exotic and expensive. Also check liveaquaria. I just feel that their shipping rates might not make it worth it. Also check ebay for betta related threads. In the past, some of those folks have mentioned in their videos where they get their bettas from. Good luck.
 

Georgie Girl

Member
DutchAquarium said:
As for cleaning the aquarium, make sure to clean the filter box also, a lot of people seem to forget about replacing the media
Wouldn't that kill the tank's bacteria? From all I've read, I think that's something that shouldn't be done.
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
Georgie Girl said:
Wouldn't that kill the tank's bacteria? From all I've read, I think that's something that shouldn't be done.
I was looking for an excuse to replace it with a sponge filter anyway. I don't mind having to cycle the tank again. I think I even have a bottle of ammonia somewhere. Plus, I get to throw out the neon gravel! I've been wanting something more natural looking now that my plants are starting to fill in.
 

Georgie Girl

Member
Mcasella said:
My strongest, thriveist, betta is a male I got from Wal-Mart out of pity . . .
Thriveist! What a great word. And good for you for rescuing him.
 

chadcf

Member
Fanatic said:
Yes, because PetCo didn't physically make them sick, it's just that the betta could've been unhealthy at that time, or caught something unexpected.
It doesn't help that they do keep them in those little containers. Although, most of the times those containers are pretty clean.
I'm curious about that... How the heck do they keep fish alive in those little cups? We got our betta from the better LFS and while they kept some bettas in larger tanks with other fish (mostly cories and otos and the like), they still had some in the little cups and the one we bought was in a cup. They have to do like daily water changes on that tiny cup to keep the fish from dying with no filter or anything...
 

Kristian Acevedo

Member
I think it’s all hit or miss, and a lot of luck. All of my bettas, 1 make in his own tank and my sorority in another, have come from petco/petsmart. I’ve been lucky, but so many of their bettas look so sick, it’s hard to really know
 

Aqua Hands

Member
going to PetCo, Petsmart, Pet Supply Plus, etc is like going to a homeless shelter. It make you want to give them a good home where they are cared for.
 

eukendywa

Member
I have had female bettas. They are really interesting but with slightly less fins. You can also have more than one in a tank. Not sure if they are hardier but mine did well.

LowieTheLoach said:
I think I'm going to stay away from betas for now. I'll have to check out the 10 gallon stocking list before I decide what to do next. I like the idea of a pair of dwarf puffers but I'd rather not keep something at the bare minimum tank size. I loved how interactive the bettas were and I'd like something with lots of personality.
 

Mcasella

Member
eukendywa said:
I have had female bettas. They are really interesting but with slightly less fins. You can also have more than one in a tank. Not sure if they are hardier but mine did well.
Bettas should not be placed together without a divider in a ten gallon tank.
 

DuaneV

Member
eukendywa said:
I have had female bettas. They are really interesting but with slightly less fins. You can also have more than one in a tank. Not sure if they are hardier but mine did well.
This is NOT good advice. Ive been keeping bettas close to 25 years and it RARELY works (Ive never had it work more than 6-8 months). I honestly believe the majority of stories and videos you hear/see about it are hogwash OR the the trouble hasn’t started yet. At some point all of my females with other females have snapped and started fighting. Once the calmest of females gets beat up, she'll start fights of her own. The last sorority we tried was about 2 years ago. We had 9 BABIES all bought at the same time. All put together, side by side on the counter for a hour or more while we talked with the lady in the fish department, etc. Brought them home to a fully cycled, HEAVILY planted 20 gallon long with lots of driftwood too. They were all happy for about three months in there and then we started noticing one in particular bullying. A few days later she had attacked a couple others. We removed her and a few days later one of the ones attacked started attacking. This went on and on for about a month until only 3 were in the tank. About 2 months later we came home and found 2 of them almost dead. We rehomed 5 of them but the other 4 are all in their own individual tanks. We also have 2 community tanks with bettas in them (the only betta among a variety of other fish) and we've had no trouble doing that (and Ive done that many times in the past with various fish, tanks sizes, male & female bettas, etc.). We even have a betta in a with guppies and have no problems. But in my personal experience, Id never recommend putting females together.
 

BReefer97

Member
Fanatic said:
Yes, because PetCo didn't physically make them sick, it's just that the betta could've been unhealthy at that time, or caught something unexpected.
It doesn't help that they do keep them in those little containers. Although, most of the times those containers are pretty clean.
Well I don’t really want to burst anyone’s bubble here, but a betta fish isn’t going to “catch something” just sitting in a cup. The reason petco/petsmart has such terrible betta fish stocking is because they use the same water between nearly all of their tanks for water changes. They use the same water from their main display tanks in the betta cups, so if one or more of the fish in their display tanks has a disease/parasite, all or most of the betta fish are subsequently going to receive said diseases/parasites. I had to report a local one of mine twice because every single one of their 50+ betta fish had dropsy, Gill flukes, etc. etc. They ended up sending a team in after I talked with a manager and they had to put down most of their stock. It’s hard to tell if you’re picking up a sick betta fish or not because sometimes it takes a while for things to progress (such as velvet).

Also, why is everyone saying you can’t keep female betta fish together all of a sudden? I’ve seen plenty of community tanks do perfectly fine. The reason there is bullying in the first few months of establishing a community betta tank is because they need to establish a pecking order (who’s the leader, who isn’t). It needs to be a minimum of 20 gallons, preferably heavily planted, and at least 6 females.
 

Mcasella

Member
BReefer97 said:
Well I don’t really want to burst anyone’s bubble here, but a betta fish isn’t going to “catch something” just sitting in a cup. The reason petco/petsmart has such terrible betta fish stocking is because they use the same water between nearly all of their tanks for water changes. They use the same water from their main display tanks in the betta cups, so if one or more of the fish in their display tanks has a disease/parasite, all or most of the betta fish are subsequently going to receive said diseases/parasites. I had to report a local one of mine twice because every single one of their 50+ betta fish had dropsy, Gill flukes, etc. etc. They ended up sending a team in after I talked with a manager and they had to put down most of their stock. It’s hard to tell if you’re picking up a sick betta fish or not because sometimes it takes a while for things to progress (such as velvet).

Also, why is everyone saying you can’t keep female betta fish together all of a sudden? I’ve seen plenty of community tanks do perfectly fine. The reason there is bullying in the first few months of establishing a community betta tank is because they need to establish a pecking order (who’s the leader, who isn’t). It needs to be a minimum of 20 gallons, preferably heavily planted, and at least 6 females.
They don't use water from the the tanks, they take it from the same source water that goes into the tanks, why would they go through the ridiculous effort of taking water from the display tanks (they need about 6 gallons to change 40 bettas' water) when they can stick that same bucket under the faucet and get water that way? The same water they use for the other tanks. Having a betta sit in water where they are overfed and maybe get two changes a week (if they are lucky and the employees are not lazy) can cause them issues beyond just slowly killing them. If the employee uses the wrong tap the fish will be exposed to chlorine and other damaging things. I just picked up a betta and had them medicate it in front of me and take it off the shelf because it was displaying signs of velvet - none of the tank fish are displaying signs of velvet?

You need to have a large enough tank and more than (just a couple bettas) in said tank with heavy coverage for them, and they can fall apart rather easily if just one fish matures out before the others and suddenly decides her roommates aren't to her liking. Bettas can be finicky, and suggesting to put them together without experience can lead to some very dead fish.
 

leftswerve

Member
Mcasella nicely said, I think end user error is mostly to blame for shortness of betta lives.
 

EllynTheBettaFan

Member
I'm sorry you have lost your fish, I know how you feel. Petco is terrible! Once I bought a sick betta and tried to rescue him, but he didn't even make it the drive home. I wish Pet stores would treat their fish better.
 

eukendywa

Member
There may be truth in that.
I had them together for a few months and it all ended in dropsy. as long as they had some space of their own they did OK but on closer contact they could scrap a bit. Too bad because I came to like them. I will probably get more.


DuaneV said:
This is NOT good advice. Ive been keeping bettas close to 25 years and it RARELY works (Ive never had it work more than 6-8 months). I honestly believe the majority of stories and videos you hear/see about it are hogwash OR the the trouble hasn’t started yet. At some point all of my females with other females have snapped and started fighting. Once the calmest of females gets beat up, she'll start fights of her own. The last sorority we tried was about 2 years ago. We had 9 BABIES all bought at the same time. All put together, side by side on the counter for a hour or more while we talked with the lady in the fish department, etc. Brought them home to a fully cycled, HEAVILY planted 20 gallon long with lots of driftwood too. They were all happy for about three months in there and then we started noticing one in particular bullying. A few days later she had attacked a couple others. We removed her and a few days later one of the ones attacked started attacking. This went on and on for about a month until only 3 were in the tank. About 2 months later we came home and found 2 of them almost dead. We rehomed 5 of them but the other 4 are all in their own individual tanks. We also have 2 community tanks with bettas in them (the only betta among a variety of other fish) and we've had no trouble doing that (and Ive done that many times in the past with various fish, tanks sizes, male & female bettas, etc.). We even have a betta in a with guppies and have no problems. But in my personal experience, Id never recommend putting females together.
 

fish_ninja

Member
Aqua Hands said:
going to PetCo, Petsmart, Pet Supply Plus, etc is like going to a homeless shelter. It make you want to give them a good home where they are cared for.
I know - it's so sad. I can't even look at the bettas when I go to these stores, because it makes me want to rehome all of them and take better care of them.

I will say though, that I was at Petco last night buying some supplies and I overheard a conversation between a teen and her mom and a store employee. The girl wanted to buy a betta and the mom had picked out a small glass bowl. They were asking the employee questions, and he cautioned them that the betta would not do well in such a small enclosure and that if they were to keep it in that bowl, they would need to be doing daily water changes, water tests, and other maintenance. I think the girl and mom were kind of disappointed but they didn't end up buying the fish, and I'm kind of glad...maybe that advice will inspire them to go home and learn more before bringing a new friend home!
 

Niaa

Member
I got a betta on sale from Petsmart who is doing great and has a great personality. I live in a big city with multiple Petsmarts, Petcos, and Pet Supermarkets, and I've been to several of them for different reasons. There is a lot of variation between stores from the same company based on management and employee knowledge.

Also, while I do think there is something to be said about the conditions causing stress and making them susceptible to diseases, ect, we also have to acknowledge that there is nature at play as well. Most fish lay tons of eggs assuming that a fraction of those will hatch, and a fraction of the fry will reach adulthood. We have changed that so that more survive, but that doesn't mean that they will all be equally healthy. It sucks, but that is nature.
 

BobNJerry

Member
chadcf said:
I'm curious about that... How the heck do they keep fish alive in those little cups? We got our betta from the better LFS and while they kept some bettas in larger tanks with other fish (mostly cories and otos and the like), they still had some in the little cups and the one we bought was in a cup. They have to do like daily water changes on that tiny cup to keep the fish from dying with no filter or anything...
The two Petco's near me change their betta water one by one by hand-

and bad news- most LFS get their bettas from the same place as Petco/petsmart and they all come in those little bags with the blue water.

The only way to know you have a quality betta is to know your breeder.
 

wolfdog01

Member
Mcasella said:
They don't use water from the the tanks, they take it from the same source water that goes into the tanks, why would they go through the ridiculous effort of taking water from the display tanks (they need about 6 gallons to change 40 bettas' water) when they can stick that same bucket under the faucet and get water that way? The same water they use for the other tanks. Having a betta sit in water where they are overfed and maybe get two changes a week (if they are lucky and the employees are not lazy) can cause them issues beyond just slowly killing them. If the employee uses the wrong tap the fish will be exposed to chlorine and other damaging things. I just picked up a betta and had them medicate it in front of me and take it off the shelf because it was displaying signs of velvet - none of the tank fish are displaying signs of velvet?
When I worked at Petsmart we just scooped water from the bigger fish tanks for the betta cups. So if that tank/row had a disease in it, the bettas would get it too. I can't remember how many water changes they got per week but I know they didn't get fed everyday. Could also be from the seller, they are just shipped in the cups they come in so anything could have happened. But the water is so blue when the bettas came in, so we changed 100% of it with water from the other tanks, leaving the betta in a net temporarily.
 

SegiDream

Member
BobNJerry said:
The two Petco's near me change their betta water one by one by hand-

and bad news- most LFS get their bettas from the same place as Petco/petsmart and they all come in those little bags with the blue water.

The only way to know you have a quality betta is to know your breeder.
2 of my 3 lfs have Bettas. I know for sure 1 gets their Bettas from breeders. The owner puts them in large jars. Better than cups I guess.
 

mjfromga

Member
My local Petco is not better than my Walmart with regards to health. Yeah they have more selection but the fish are no healthier. After a store clerk gave me a nasty attitude about returning two cichlids that I had bought, I decided not to buy from them again.

She was a real WITCH about it and didn't want to honor store policy and gave me an extremely nasty attitude. She finally said that she would take the fish back "this time" but in the future an "unspoken policy" was that they don't. Policy says they will refund even DEAD fish within 30 days with a receipt and it had not been 30 days and both fish were ALIVE and she didn't want to refund me for them.

She didn't mind the woman behind me returning an OPEN bag of expensive dog food that they can't even resell. She was very cordial with that woman actually. That woman was the same race as she was and probably about the same age. I am a different race and maybe 20 years younger than them. I won't make any accusations directly but just wanted to point that out, but I definitely won't be returning there.
 

Ohio Mark

Member
mjfromga said:
My local Petco is not better than my Walmart with regards to health. Yeah they have more selection but the fish are no healthier. After a store clerk gave me a nasty attitude about returning two cichlids that I had bought, I decided not to buy from them again.

She was a real WITCH about it and didn't want to honor store policy and gave me an extremely nasty attitude. She finally said that she would take the fish back "this time" but in the future an "unspoken policy" was that they don't. Policy says they will refund even DEAD fish within 30 days with a receipt and it had not been 30 days and both fish were ALIVE and she didn't want to refund me for them.

She didn't mind the woman behind me returning an OPEN bag of expensive dog food that they can't even resell. She was very cordial with that woman actually. That woman was the same race as she was and probably about the same age. I am a different race and maybe 20 years younger than them. I won't make any accusations directly but just wanted to point that out, but I definitely won't be returning there.
That's awful... on ALL counts!
 

mjfromga

Member
Lol it most certainly was. Like I said... It's the only one truly close to me and I haven't been back since. I was made to stand and wait while they got someone from the fish department and they talked it over and everything. It was a huge waste of time for something that I should have been in and out for.
 

WinterSoldier.

Member
I am dealing with petcosyndrom now. My water is fine, I have a heater, and a filter and live plants, and the bettas tail is rotting away to nothing. I am furious. Mostly bc the betta was expensive
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
My Petco has gotten consistently better. I've noticed newer, more knowledgeable employees since that fish died. I did end up returning that betta, but I got one of the good employees who knew about fish. I still stay away from the bettas though. All of the fish I've gotten since have done pretty well.

I actually used the opportunity to redo the entire tank and it's sort of a QT tank at the moment. I'm still letting the plants grow in but I think Santa will be getting me some chilI rasboras as new permanent residents. This is the tank at the moment:
 

SegiDream

Member
A lot of employees don't know what their store's policies are and don't like being called out on it, regardless of their appearance. I find it useful to open the store policies on the phone when employees have doubts. If they refuse to honor store policy then their manager or supervisor will when I request one. I try to be cordial about it from the get-go though, the saying you win more flies with honey is true, and it's just not healthy to be upset over these things. We're all human, we all make mistakes.
 

goldface

Member
Wrong thread.
 
  • Thread Starter

LowieTheLoach

Member
I completely agree! It makes a huge difference on how you approach the situation. Petco is my closest store with fish, but I've since developed a good relationship with the people in the fish department. In fact, had a really fun conversation on their filtration last time I was there. Leaps and bounds of improvement. The right employees can make all the difference. Having fish keepers in the fish department makes a world of difference.
 

BlackOsprey

Member
Just from my experience, the Petcos tend to have better fish sections than Petsmart. The employees tend to be hobbyists themselves and can be actually quite pleasant to chat with. Most of the bettas in the cups usually have clean water and don't look totally dead.

I will agree that bettas, and fish from stores in general, are still a total gamble. I've bought 3 bettas in the past year, all from Petsmart... one got fungus and died within a week of purchase, Foosh lasted a school year but had persistent problems and fin rot that just kept coming back no matter what I did (might've just been his veiltail genes honestly), and the latest one, Nier, seems to be perfectly happy and healthy with no issues to speak of. He was a real steal too... I've seen black crowntails like him at small LFS's for forty freakin' dollars, while he didn't cost me more than $10 at most.
 

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