Bacterial infections - Page 3

[Danjamesdixon]

It would probably need to be a medication targeted at aquatics, like the interpet range or similar.

Literally the only symptoms visible are flashing (although it's very occasional and intermittent) and the three guppies with tail issues, as I have photographed on this thread. One other has somewhat stringy excretions though which is backing up the parasite theory...ish. Other than that everything seems in order, the other fish are exhibiting no signs of being infected.

I agree, I don't particularly want to dose anything, but I can't just keep changing the water daily and have them flash a little for the rest of their lives. Something needs to be done

 

[toosie]

If you can't see any swelling or definite signs of parasites on the fish, this is what I would propose for you to do first. I would treat these fish as if they have ich in their gills. If this is the case, all you would need to do is increase water surface disturbance with an air stone, or drop your water level so that the water from your current filtration splashes into the water. Then I would follow through with the ICH Heat Treatment. You would slowly increase the temp over a few days time to 86F - 88F. 88 being preferable if your fish can tolerate it, but you'll have to watch to make sure they can. Usually they can, if enough oxygen is being created, hence the increased water surface movement. You would keep this temp for 2 weeks, syphoning the gravel periodically throughout the course of the treatment to remove any ich spores. After treatment, slowly lower your temp back down to your normal tank temperature.

This treatment could prevent you from having to use harsher chemicals. It it turns out not to be ich, then that is one protozoan you have eliminated in a safe way for your fish.

If it isn't Ich, you will need to make sure to allow enough time to get the water back down to a cooler temp before using a chemical to treat other parasite possiblities. Chemicals, like heat, can hamper a fish's ability to obtain adequate oxygen, so you don't want both things happening at the same time.

If during the course of the treatment the fish starts developing visible signs of ich, don't worry, the heat treatment speeds up the ich cycle, and Ich often becomes worse before it gets better, so don't stop the treatment if you do notice this.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

Thank you for the advice Toosie - any "treatment" I can do for the fish that doesn't actually involve med's I will grasp with both hands - hence the garlic. Will a relatively small airstone create enough movement in a 25g? I have a bag of activated carbon blocking my filter outflow right now.

 

[toosie]

Thank you for the advice Toosie - any "treatment" I can do for the fish that doesn't actually involve med's I will grasp with both hands - hence the garlic. Will a relatively small airstone create enough movement in a 25g? I have a bag of activated carbon blocking my filter outflow right now.

A small airstone will certainly help. It will depend a bit on the strength of the air pump. A strong pump can bubble water very well. If you have an air valve installed on it, make sure it is in the full open position.

If your fish start breathing fast or surfacing, you'll know you need to provide them with more oxygen. If that happens, just sink your activated charcoal into the tank and drop your water level. It will still have some effectiveness removing any toxins in the tank, just try to put it in an area that is getting good water flow. It may become exhausted quicker, but activated carbon, (when it's used) should be replaced every month. Whether you choose to continue using it, will be entirely up to you.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

The pump I have is pretty powerful, but I will watch the tank like a hawk for at least the first day, and adjust accordingly

I won't be running the carbon after this episode is over, unless I can find a way to place it directly inside my filter, as right now there is a massive construction holding it over my outflow, including but not limited to - an incense stick holder, pine dowel and black thread :') Plus it blocks the flow my guppies and plecos enjoy.

 

[toosie]

Got a link to your filter or a few good pics?

 

[Danjamesdixon]

Of course -

 

[toosie]

So you have a venturI on it. That will also help along with the airstone. What do you currently have for media in the baskets?

 

[Danjamesdixon]

Actually I don't use the venturi, I use the spray bar attachment to increase the area of flow in the tank. Right now I have the stock filter wool in the bottom canister, half and half stock media and ceramic rings in the second, and the stock mechanical wool in the top canister.

I'll be overhauling my lighting setup and building a hood for my tank in the next month or so, hopefully then I could potentially have another canister in the setup and not have the filter catch on the T8 in there. That could work, huzzah for modular filters!

 

[toosie]

Yep, that sounds like it could work very nicely!

What I was wondering.... is if you could put the heavy bag of carbon into the top chamber, because I'm assuming the filter is designed in a way that would keep that media the cleanest? Maybe not, and if not it wouldn't matter much which chamber the carbon went into, but... I was thinking if the carbon went into one of the chambers, the wool might be easily strapped around the filter unit with a couple of elastic bands to hold it in place. That way you keep all of your media during treatment and the fish get there flow back and the increased water movement would be a really good idea even if you don't drop the water level.

Either that... or if you have somebody in your household that you can rob a pair of nylon knee highs or pantyhose from, you could split up the activated carbon using the nylons for media bags, and place some under the wools in those chambers. Of course you would only need a part of the pantyhose or knee highs, which will still render them useless but it's for a good cause. Also it's best if they are new and never been worn, which may make them a bigger sacrifice to a needy cause.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

Sounds like a lot of effort when I already have an airstone and pump ready to go in in the morning

Still, the elastic band method sounds good if the airstone isn't enough....I really can't wait to see the guppies reaction to the airstone, i'm sure they are going to be quite enthralled by it! I'll get a photo of the contraption I put together to hold the bag in there for now tomorrow for viewing pleasure, and to show off my.....tenacity.....yeah.

 

[Rivieraneo]

Having looked up the ingredients for Interpet No9, it looks like one of the main ingredients is formaldehyde, this should have helped with any ICH related issues, the ingredients are rather concerning though. If you are set on treating for internal/external parasite, I would suggest you treat with API General Cure. It has both praziquantel and metrodiazole. Complete the Interpet treatment, do a large water change, add some carbon to your tank and give your fish a break before treating with General cure though. Best of luck.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

The tank decided to make a statement today - I forgot my daily water change yesterday, and today the yellow guppy with one rip in his tail now has a completely shredded tail. -.- Sighhhhh

Riv, i'm going to start the ICH heat treatment today, i'm not too sure about medicating for parasites yet. Although finding that guppies tail shredded after one omitted water change sure has added another thing to the mix.

Having read up on General Cure however, it does look somewhat better than the other medications i've considered. If the heat treatment doesn't work (and i'm doubtful after today), I will be picking that up.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

Here's a photo of how the tank sits right now, you wouldn't be able to tell there's anything wrong...would you? All preservation of beauty and naturalism seems to just go out the window when a disease get's into a tank haha.

 

[toosie]

Your poor guppies.

Rivieraneo makes a good point about the formaldehyde. If this was ich it should have worked, but I believe you started doing water changes before the full course of the treatment was done? This might have made the treatment less effective.

If you have access to the API General Cure, I agree that both the ingredients are pretty safe to use. I use praziquantel to deworm even delicate fish like Discus. It's what I used for their tapeworm. It worked extremely well. The metrodiazole I believe treats external parasites and some bacteria, and it is also very safe.

I can't see your filter, incense holder, activated carbon, etc! What's the dowel for?

 

[Danjamesdixon]

I actually ordered some API General Cure today, but it's going to take over a week to get here, hopefully I can keep them alive until then. No, I followed the Interpet treatment correctly, I only started water changes 2 days before it stated I could dose again (so a week after the second dose) - there should have been plenty of time. I really hope the General Cure works, i'm seriously exhausting options here.

My filter is in the back corner, the dowel has the activated carbon hanging from it over the airstone so I could get enough surface movement from the filter, and the incense holder isn't there anymore so I could drop the carbon down low enough :')

 

[toosie]

Sounds good! Just remember to remove the activated carbon if/when you treat the tank with General Cure or it may remove the treatment.

Edit: Also remember to lower the temp back to normal before the treatment is started.

 

[Siould]

MelaFix works well for most bacterial infections. I keep it around just in case.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

This is exactly the same as what happened to the last guppy that died, except I caught this one alive with it. Yesterday his tail was slightly shredded yes, but otherwise no different to what it had been for 2 weeks. Today it's completely gone. What on earth could do this in under 12 hours with no warning? My guppies are in a 10gal QT, and I have API General Cure on it's way for Monday.

 

[toosie]

Oh my goodness! It is obviously not from flashing on the rocks anyhow, cuz you've now eliminated that possibilty. Bacterial is the only thing I can guess at. Melafix and Primafix are maybe not able to handle this bacteria. I don't think guppies tend to shred each other's tails like that? But you've done the Interpet #9 treatment for bacterial too.... I'll help you dig through the internet today to see if we can find anything more definitive out and what to treat it with.

 

[Matt68046]

We keep going in diffrent directions don't we. Try reading this OP guy (too many names)
I think this is what my fish had and it does present like a parasite tho it is actually bacterial.

Ps. I know a guy who knows a guy if you need some Terramycin. LOL joking joking

 

[Danjamesdixon]

It looks somewhat bacterial, but i'm still not sure. They are in the QT so it's been a lot easier to deal with, he's in a large net so he can lay down and I even managed to hand feed him this morning. All this is more for comfort rather than cure though of course. He's developed a curved spine since this morning.

Right now i'm still waiting on my General Cure, so a treatment of that is what's next for these guppies. If that doesn't work I will then treat for bacterial, potentially with the General Cure's sister product Furan. If THAT doesn't work? Well i'm all out of options.

 

[toosie]

Dan, what are you feeding your guppies?

 

[Danjamesdixon]

JBL Novobel tropical fish flakes Toosie, and yes they are in date haha. Usually they'll pilfer some of the plecos cucumber and courgette as well.

Ingredients - Fish and Fish by-products, cereals, molluscs and crustaceans, vegetable byproducts, vegetables, vegetable protein extracts, yeast, eggs and egg byproducts and algae.

Basically, I can either treat for bacteria, parasites or finrot directly. Just gotta decide which to do first

 

[toosie]

Well... here is another one to through into the mix. A curved spine (a lot of people think tuberculosis when they see this) but other things do cause it, like a vitamin deficiencies. Your food seems to have lot of veggies in it, but because we don't know the veggies that are used, it could still mean a vitamin deficiency. Maybe among all of the other treatments you are considering doing, it might be worth varying their food a little.

If you look close, are any of the other guppies starting to present with an even a slight curve to their spine?

 

[Danjamesdixon]

It does contain vitamins as well, including A, D, E and C. Truth be told i've been wanting to switch to that garlic infused pellet food i've heard a lot about, but money has just been too tight (thankfully remedied now though!)

All the other guppies in the tank appear ok, with minor caudal fin damage. There has been slight flashing on the thermometer wire, but that was a few days ago and I haven't seen it since. It's worth mentioning Beauty is my only fancy guppy, and was always weaker than the others (to be expected). If it was only finrot, I am confident that the state their tails are in could be cured by Melafix. However, this outbreak seems to have an underlying cause - which is what we are trying to work out.

Once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the continued support

 

[toosie]

I just like to explore all avenues, but I do feel kinda like we are grasping at straws. Especially since you've already completed a bacterial treatment. It may have been the wrong treatment for that type of bacteria though, so it doesn't necessarily rule it out.

I'd be tempted to start including spirulina flakes, peas, bloodworm, and brine shrimp, or even a couple of these, offering them on different days throughout the week, just to vary their diet some, to see if it helps prevent more from getting sicker. All but maybe with the exception of spirulina (not sure how it would soak) can be soaked in garlic juice. You can look up some of the benefits to feeding these to your guppies, and maybe it'll give you more ideas to try that might fit you best.

I'm going to continue to see what else I can find on this bent spine presenting now. Maybe this is common in a guppy that is about to perish, I don't know, but I'm gonna look.

 

[Danjamesdixon]

I think the curved spine is simply because he hasn't been able to swim since his caudal fin got decimated, and has been on one side ever since. And since fancy guppy fins are far too big for their bodies thanks to breeders, it's just weighed him down.

Once Beauty passes i'm going to do a course of Melafix to see what effect it has on the remaining Guppies fin condition. If it helps - great! If not - it's only Melafix after all. I'll also feed them some peas and other good stuff to help their immune systems.

Beauty's tail was in a really bad way when they went into the QT. The others seem to be doing well though, so there is still hope.

 

[toosie]

Ok, Just keep your chin up then.

 

[Siould]

Your fish aren't dying from bacterial infections, they're dying of ammonia poisoning. How often are you cleaning the tank? You need to drain and clean the aquarium. It's not the fish, but the contents. The bacteria are in the rocks, etc that are there. Disease is coming from aquarium where fish are kept before you buy. Be sure to tell shop where you are buying fish of this. They need to know.