Bacterial infections - Page 2

toosie

Thank you very much. I'm a little amazed on how little information is provided. I do know the UK has different regulations than we do, and many products we are use to having here, just aren't available there. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

I can tell you, that I have killed more fish using treatments, than I have saved. A lot of those due to the treatment itself. In some cases, the fish was in dire straights minutes after dosing a product, in others, it's kind of like yours, where different symptoms developed during treatment. I've been at this a lot of years, and a lot of those years things were learned the hard way. Now, I almost never treat a fish. If I'm positive my fish has a parasite, like when one of my Discus passed a tapeworm, I will treat for parasites. Internal parasites require different treatment than external parasites. Bacterial and fungal infections I find cure just as fast with fewer casualties if I just pick up the water changes and soak food in garlic juice. (Yes, even I slack off on water changes sometimes when life gets too busy.) Sometimes, I'll turn the lights off for a few days, just to provide the fish with more down time. These things all help boost the fish's natural defense systems, both internal and external. If a fish has a strong immune system, they can fight off most things by themselves. I am a real advocate for providing our fish with a lot of fresh clean water for these reasons and believe in large water changes to provide them with an ample source of all the necessary electrolytes to keep them and their immune system strong and healthy.
 

Danjamesdixon

I know what you mean toosie, but we gotta deal with what we have I guess.

I too am an advocate of using as little meds as possible, and i'd like to not have to use them again (who does?) I was just so blown away by how severe whatever hit my tank this time was I felt I had to do something more active about it. I didn't appreciate how heavy meds can be however (hence the no active carbon), but I thank you for guiding me to it, I feel somewhat better now knowing my tank has a much stronger level of filtration (for the time being anyway).

If I can successfully fight this off however, I will be looking into more preventative procedures such as the garlic, or whatever else I can glean from you wonderful people.
 

toosie

I certainly don't knock people for doing what ever they feel they need to do to save their fish. When a good diagnosis is made, and the appropriate treatment is given, it CAN have a very favorable outcome providing the fish responds well to it. All fish are different just like people. What works for one person, or fish, may not work for another. Strange in a way, isn't it?
 

Danjamesdixon

I wouldn't say strange...moreso beautiful I always pity those who say "it's just a fish", they really are missing out on such a wonderful and interactive world.

I will keep this thread updated for as long as I feel it is needed, if the red dots don't recede, and I keep finding split guppy tails, I will be leaning more towards fin rot, or something of that ilk, which I hear is somewhat easier to treat than parasites and bacterial infections. Fingers crossed!
 

toosie

Hope it goes well. Good luck!
 

Danjamesdixon

Update for the day -

The red tail seems to be receding, although there is a rather sizable hole appearing in his tail to replace it (not huge, just noticeable). No improvement in the other 2 guppies with shredded tails. No behavioral problems I have seen either.

All the symptoms seem to be coalescing into what looks like finrot or similar, which I suppose is a good thing since it's only one ailment rather than potentially loads. Any thoughts on that one?

Parameters after a 20% water change -

Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrates - 5-10
Nitrites - 0
pH - 7.4~
Temp - 24.5
 

toosie

If it's starting to look like just fin and tail rot, things just might be improving. I'd continue doing daily water changes. If you'd like to start soaking food in pure garlic juice, it could help.
 

Danjamesdixon

I will probably do that as feeding time is still a frantic rush for food haha! There has been a little bit of flashing, but there are now only 3 distinct fish with any sort of ailment, I'll get photos of them tomorrow (unless of course they cure overnight - let's hope!)

Would finrot cause guppies to flash? The only 2 who are flashing incidentally, are the only ones with ripped up tails.

EDIT - so now they are all flashing, moreso than i've seen this whole episode. Any ideas?
 

toosie

The tails may very well be getting ripped due to the flashing then. Substrate and ornaments can be hard on these little guys.

There are usually two main causes of a fish to flash. One is of course parasites, two is something else that is irritating the skin. That could be ammonia, if there is a trace, which I understand you haven't been able to get a test result yet that reads absolute 0, and have worked hard to figure that out, so, there maybe a trace, or there may not be. Any other harsh or irritating chemical that could be in the water. You've now run new activated carbon, and there should no longer be any of the product you used for treatment left in the water. It should have also helped remove other types of toxins in the water. You use Prime for your water conditioner so it shouldn't be from chlorine, chloramine or heavy metals....

Have you ever tested your tap water (if that's what you use for water changes) for ammonia? Do you know if chlorine or chloramine is used to treat your water?
 

Danjamesdixon

That is definitely a possibility. Finrot I am ok with but the flashing is making me think there is still something there that shouldn't be.

I have read that those are the only two reasons for it, and have been considering the possibility that there could STILL be a parasite in there based on the fact that the water should be pristine with daily water changes AND activated Seachem Matrix carbon.

I did also read that finrot can be caused by those same two things, again - the water should be pretty pristine. Perhaps I will start feeding the fish some form of garlic, be it in Garlic Guard, actual garlic, or soaked flakes. After all what harm can that do? The benefits sure outweigh the negatives, and if there is still a parasite, it can only help.

I did actually test my tap water some time ago. I can't remember the results but I'll do it again tomorrow and see what they say, for curiosity.
 

toosie

If you wouldn't mind too much... I'd like you to test it 3 times, so run some water into a container. Test the water as soon as you fill the container. Then treat the water with Prime, and wait 5 minutes or so, giving it a few stirs while you wait, and then test it again. Then I'd like you to just leave the water sit for 24 hours, and test it again after that. Then post all 3 test results, please. It may sound silly, but it might tell us something.

EDIT: Prime can monkey with that second test result. Any chance you have a different water conditioner on hand?
 

Danjamesdixon

Of course Obviously the results won't come for 2 days now, since it's 11 at night here in the UK! Anything that can help my tank I will happily oblige by. Unfortunately, Prime is my only conditioner and I can't afford another right now though.

What're your thoughts on the garlic treatment? I'm torn between yes and no, since it isn't really a treatment - but I also don't want to add any other variables into the situation.
 

toosie

If Prime is the only conditioner on hand, we'll just take that second test result with a grain of salt, but I'd still like to see it. Also, because of the little bit of complication Prime might give us, don't throw out your water sample after the 3rd test. I may get you to do one more 24 hours (give or take) later that may better represent what I am looking for. We'll start with just the 3 tests, but be prepared for the 4th.

The garlic can only help. It has natural antibiotic properties, is claimed to kill internal parasites, boosts immune system, and so yeah... I think it's something you should try. It won't interfere with other treatment if you decide you really need to do one, so I really don't think it can hurt anything.

If you have a garlic press and fresh garlic, you can even make your own. Mortar and pestle work well too or anything else you can press the garlic with. You can strain the garlic and juice through a paper coffee filter, but if the garlic is on the dry side, it can become a little like work to get the juice out. I have full instructions somewhere in my files here. If you would like, I can track them down for you.
 

Danjamesdixon

You're starting to make me doubt Prime toosie I will definitely do all that in the morning though.

I would also really appreciate that! I've been looking into methods of feeding, and would certainly prefer the lower cost and more natural homemade pure garlic approach, just seems a bit less clinical to me, i'm all for Seachem but I don't know what other ingredients are in Garlic Guard. I don't have a garlic press....but if I can bet one for cheap I would consider making it a regular thing in my fishes diet, especially if all the claims are true. You wouldn't think fish would enjoy vegetables so much haha
 

toosie

It's just the juice the food soaks up that they eat. They do seem to love it though, which is an added bonus! I'll find those instructions for you and post them as soon as I do.

I don't want you to doubt Prime. It's a very valuable product. It just messes with test results for 24 hours after using it, which complicates things for me a bit if I want to know what water tests like after something like chloramine has been disassembled into chlorine and ammonia. If I can't find out how much ammonia is created in that process, the other test I'm getting you to do need to be extended in order for me to see what it is I'm looking for.

What it is I'm looking for, actually doesn't really have anything to do with Prime. I am curious and want to see if ammonia continues to accumulate in the sample of water over time, without a beneficial bacteria colony readily there to munch away at it.
 

Danjamesdixon

Thank you

Who doesn't love a good experiment! What're you hoping to find? Wouldn't the level stay low for 1-2 days and then increase once the detoxifying effects of the Prime had worn off?
 

toosie

UH... you're a curious one.

I'm hoping Prime doesn't interfere that much. To satisfy your curiosity a little more, and because you're being a good sport doing this, I'll try to elaborate some.

If you have ammonia in your water due to hahaha, having ammonia in your water, or due to chloramines, the ammonia level should stay constant, except for any concentration the effect of evaporation may have on it. In other words, if the water evaporates too much, the ammonia level may become more concentrated. This is what a person would expect to see.

What I'm being curious about is seeing if ammonia will increase beyond the level you may have in your tap water. If it does, I may have you buy a small bottle of RO or distilled water, and test them in the same manner. This would eliminate (or should) the possibility it only happens with your water source. Basically, I'm testing to see if ammonia gas, which can be present in the environment, (particularly when cats or a lot of ammonia based cleaning products are used) is getting absorbed by the water. Ammonia gas readily dissolves in water and I'm trying to see if this may be a plausible explanation to the continued ammonia reading in your tank. So if that is the case, I would expect to see the ammonia in your sample of water increase daily above the amount that may be attributed to any evaporation.

Here is a link to making Garlic Juice. It's not my original one, but it's exactly the same, but also offers a method if you have a blender or food processor. And it has good pics.
 

Danjamesdixon

Yeah I read the words "test subject" on a certain other recent thread and felt I had to grill you for knowledge a bit It's a valid theory though, and if it turns out to be true could help A LOT of people. I'm going to build a hood for my tank in a couple of weeks, if my ammonia decreases after that it'll only back up your theory (I think), since it's cutting off the water from the environment in the main.
 

toosie

It would do that. It may also mean that the only thing you might have to do is add another filter to support more media for more bacteria to colonize. Not something I'd ask you to do unless I had a good reason to support the need for you to spend the money.

It's probably a long shot, but hey, who knows. I've come across reasons to make me think it's a possibility and who better to test a theory out on than people it might make a difference to.

So, for the purpose of this test... enquiry minds want to know.... Do you have cats or use a lot of ammonia based cleaning products?
 

Danjamesdixon

If the hood thing does actually work I'll just drill holes in the back to allow more air (and apparently ammonia gas) in, which would introduce an element of control into it which would be nice. No we do not have cats, and the only thing that could potentially get into the tank is my deodorant, which as far as i'm aware does not have ammonia in it
 

toosie

Thank you! Due to those answers, I anticipate no such increases in the water, but since it is never good to assume, lets do the tests. Maybe other things contribute to this as well. We will see.
 

toosie

I've decided to start a thread to give a bit of a back story and to explain why I've asked for this test. If anyone is interested, here's the link.
 

Danjamesdixon

I was actually considering that last night toosie, you beat me to it

There has been no signs of regression or advancement in the physical symptoms for some time now, despite water condition being kept at it's highest through activated carbon and daily water changing.

This, combined with the fact that both symptoms now being seen - ripped tails and flashing - can be caused by either bad water quality or a parasite, is leading me to believe there is in fact a parasite in the water still. I will not be medicating straight away, instead opting to try garlic soaked food, in the hope it will bolster the fishes immune systems enough to fight the parasite off themselves.







These are the 3 fish showing physical symptoms. The third photo shows the guppy just starting to get red tail (I was unaware at the time) and the hole toward the bottom of his tail. On the fancy in the first photo, the particularly large chuck out of his tail was a bite that had been there anyway.
 

toosie

The garlic claim is in regards to internal parasites. I don't believe it to be as effective if at all effective on external parasites. If you are confident it is parasites, see what treatment options are available to you to treat external parasites.
 

Danjamesdixon

I might try that, it's strange that these are supposedly caused by an external parasite and yet there hasn't been any signs of ich, velvet or anything like that. Could be flukes?

Just as a side note, I have been extremely impressed with my 4 ember tetra survivors throughout this whole thing. They are in numbers that would otherwise stress them out usually, and have shown no signs of being affected by anything this entire time, other than the 2 that succumbed at the start unfortunately.
 

toosie

That's a really good thing! Nice to know they are still doing well.

There are quite a few external parasites other than ich and velvet. Flukes would be a possibility, yes, so would anchor worms and lice, etc. You aren't seeing any swelling, or protrusions which you might see with anchor worms or flukes. It could be gill flukes or ich that is just bothering the gills, but you might notice a gill not moving quite right, or redness or swelling.

I've done a search. It's a link from guppy breeders it seems to be quite informative on things you could look for. See if it helps in some way.

https://guppies.weebly.com/diseases.html
 

Danjamesdixon

I wish I had known how susceptible guppies were to disease before I got into them. Ah well, they won't be receiving any less treatment and care from me regardless of susceptibility

I think I'll try the garlic for a few days, since there seems to be no advancement in how they are behaving/looking. If not, I'll move onto something stronger like a parasitic treatment. Seems to be the best course of action right now in my eyes.
 

toosie

Sounds good to me.

Are you making garlic juice today?
 

Danjamesdixon

I tried and failed miserably haha, so I cut up a clove, and have some of their normal flakes soaking with them in the fridge right now - I'll feed them some later I might end up going with garlic guard to really guarantee they are getting garlic - garlic juice is hard to come by around here!
 

toosie

Yeah, it can be a miserable thing to try to do. I haven't tried a food blender yet. We got a new Ninja for Christmas so I might try using it at some point. I'm sure Garlic Guard will do fine though. At least you gave it a shot.
 

Jsigmo

When you guys talk about soaking food in the garlic juice, are you talking about plain flake fish food? Doesn't it just turn into a blob of goo?

I love garlic. I should go into the business of mashing it and selling the juice.

You really do want to mash it very well to break open all of the cells, releasing their contents. Like toosie said, a mortar and pestle will do a good job.

A food processor or blender will do well, too, but the problem is usually that you need to add some liquid to allow the mush to recirculate past the blades so you don't have to manually scrape down the sides over and over. But if you want this garlic juice to be diluted with water anyhow, you can just peel all of the cloves (the more the better) and then add enough water to keep things fairly runny, and blend away.

Then you could filter the resulting mush through a coffee filter or something to get a reasonably clear liquid.

Darn. Now I'm thinking about garlic, and it's making me hungry!
 

toosie

You caught me Jsigmo. I never even asked what kind of food he fed. :-[ Usually people will soak pellets or bloodworm or something with some substance. I think you are right. I think flakes would more difficult at the very least.

Just don't chomp on tooooo many cloves Jsigmo, or I'll be able to smell you from here!

Also, that sounds like a good method. A little water wouldn't hurt.
 

Jsigmo

That makes sense. Even the old freeze dried tubifex worms (if those are still available and used) might work well because they'd soak up the garlic juice, and then they'd be more or less in the same form they always end up in once they've been in the tank for a short while, anyhow.

You could soak a cube of them in the juice, then just dump them into the tank, or use an eyedropper to suck 'em up and put them in.

I like the idea of trying something like the garlic in the food because it shouldn't have as much devastating effect on the beneficial bacteria and other aquarium microbes as treating the whole tank with an antibiotic or other whole-tank medicine would.
 

toosie

Some people won't feed food that hasn't been soaked first. They use it full time. I've never heard of any tank mishaps from it, other than, if you dump all the juice in and the food, it can soon make your whole aquarium stink like garlic. Something you might not mind. But I don't advise it.
 

Jsigmo

It'd probably make me hungry every time I came into the tank room!

So you mean they pre-soak it in garlic juice all of the time? That might not be a bad idea if it helps the fish' immune systems out.

If the garlic juice kills some bacteria, I'd kind of be tempted to try to get it soaked into just the food. That way, the fish would get the benefit of it, but it wouldn't potentially start killing off your beneficial aquarium bacteria.

It seems like if it's antibacterial, then it may be pretty indiscriminate. On the other hand, if it just boosts one's immune system, then that seems like it'd have no downside at all.
 

Matt68046

I have been just keeping a jar of "minced garlic" which I bought and ate all of and just left a few pieces and the juice next to my food and have been feeding mine "frozen variety pack" avaliable at petstores with a little dash of garlic juice added, and along with more frequent water changes, it seems to be helping my fish with internal parasites, If nothing else it makes them eat it even the skinny ones so they get ample nutrition to ward off watever it is that makes them skinny. Tossed my mixture of dried food (I had all kinds of diffrent food mixed in there, might have just made them constipated and given them direahhea, tho I doubt I would be loosing fish from that there is some kind of internal problem) but a lot of mine seem to be getting over it. I know your problem may or may be diffrent, but id say +1 on the clean water, garlic, and also add that you might try frozen brine shrimp and some deshelled peas too if you do think its something internal, if nothing else it makes them eat and makes them more comfortable and act normal, and ive gotten 40 or so fry the last week, their not acting quite so bad so it might be worth a shot (the bottle of garlic was like 2 dollars at the supermarket and ofc a can of peas is like 79 Cents)
 

toosie

It'd probably make me hungry every time I came into the tank room!

So you mean they pre-soak it in garlic juice all of the time? That might not be a bad idea if it helps the fish' immune systems out.

If the garlic juice kills some bacteria, I'd kind of be tempted to try to get it soaked into just the food. That way, the fish would get the benefit of it, but it wouldn't potentially start killing off your beneficial aquarium bacteria.

It seems like if it's antibacterial, then it may be pretty indiscriminate. On the other hand, if it just boosts one's immune system, then that seems like it'd have no downside at all.

Yeah, you got it. Once a day, every day. I don't think you'd want to do it every time if you fed more than once a day. Not sure though. Maybe some do.

Too much of a good thing isn't always good, so just what is soaked into the food is all you need.

Sshhh..... Here's my secret:

https://www.marthastewart.com/316055/roasted-garlic-paste

You can also find "garlic puree" or "garlic paste" which is essentially pure garlic with some olive oil in the ethnic food isle of your local food store, I usually, just roast and mash.

Seriously??? Where were you a hundred and forty cloves of garlic ago!

Can you put my posts together? I don't know how to quote after a post is posted. So I made a new one especially for you.
 

Rivieraneo

Posts merged,

Sorry toosie, I learned this trick from wife, I used to microwave my garlic and crush it before the hardway as well, then my wife saw me and laughed and taught me this nifty way to do it
 

toosie

Posts merged,

Sorry toosie, I learned this trick from wife, I used to microwave my garlic and crush it before the hardway as well, then my wife saw me and laughed and taught me this nifty way to do it

Well, it sounds fantastic! I bet Dan tries again now that someone smarter than me came to his rescue!

I just finished reading cloves. Should have been 140 bulbs, and over the years that's probably low. :-\ Cloves sounds better though.
 

Jsigmo

Sshhh..... Here's my secret:

https://www.marthastewart.com/316055/roasted-garlic-paste

You can also find "garlic puree" or "garlic paste" which is essentially pure garlic with some olive oil in the ethnic food isle of your local food store, I usually, just roast and mash.

I love roasted garlic. It's great just spread on crackers or toast, and excellent in things like mashed potatoes, or just about anything!

...
Seriously??? Where were you a hundred and forty cloves of garlic ago!

Can you put my posts together? I don't know how to quote after a post is posted. So I made a new one especially for you.

Hey. You got the fun of mashing all of that garlic!

Posts merged,

Sorry toosie, I learned this trick from wife, I used to microwave my garlic and crush it before the hardway as well, then my wife saw me and laughed and taught me this nifty way to do it

I love the flavor of roasted garlic. But the thing I wonder is: For fish-treatment, or for humans to get the most health benefits, would it be best to stay with fresh uncooked garlic? I have no idea which compounds in the garlic are supposed to be the healthful ones, but perhaps cooking it might destroy some of the ones we want. Then again, cooking it might generate even MORE of the compounds we want! Who knows?

So for eating, I like garlic either way. But for treating fish food, I wonder which way would be the best.

The jars of pre-mashed stuff might be just great, too. But isn't that cheating? You'd miss out on all of the fun of peeling and mashing it yourself!

Well, it sounds fantastic! I bet Dan tries again now that someone smarter than me came to his rescue!

I just finished reading cloves. Should have been 140 bulbs, and over the years that's probably low. :-\ Cloves sounds better though.

Hey, bulbs are better than cloves because more is always better!
 

Rivieraneo

I love roasted garlic. It's great just spread on crackers or toast, and excellent in things like mashed potatoes, or just about anything!



Hey. You got the fun of mashing all of that garlic!



I love the flavor of roasted garlic. But the thing I wonder is: For fish-treatment, or for humans to get the most health benefits, would it be best to stay with fresh uncooked garlic? I have no idea which compounds in the garlic are supposed to be the healthful ones, but perhaps cooking it might destroy some of the ones we want. Then again, cooking it might generate even MORE of the compounds we want! Who knows?

So for eating, I like garlic either way. But for treating fish food, I wonder which way would be the best.

The jars of pre-mashed stuff might be just great, too. But isn't that cheating? You'd miss out on all of the fun of peeling and mashing it yourself!



Hey, bulbs are better than cloves because more is always better!

Seems like your rather motivated by your stomach tonight
 

Jsigmo

Seems like your rather motivated by your stomach tonight

I guess I am! I'm at work, and I haven't had anything to eat since about noon. Watching the crayfish chowing down is making it even worse!

Hmmm. Crayfish. They ARE rather yummy, aren't they?
 

Rivieraneo

I guess I am! I'm at work, and I haven't had anything to eat since about noon. Watching the crayfish chowing down is making it even worse!

Hmmm. Crayfish. They ARE rather yummy, aren't they?

i've got a great garlic fry recepie... but we'd get off topic
 

Jsigmo

Hah! Couldn't let THAT happen!
 

toosie

i've got a great garlic fry recepie... but we'd get off topic

Ummmmmm, you're the moderator so you would know, but ummmm..... aren't we already? What more do you got to lose??
 

Jsigmo

As long as the OP doesn't mind, then I figure it's OK.

In another forum I frequent, a guy started a thread saying that he had a stupid question, and asking what "hijacking a thread" meant. That thread immediately became a random, stream-of-consciousness, source of great amusement, camaraderie, levity, and fellowship for a lot of the forum-members. It became known as the "SQT" or Stupid Question Thread.

Eventually, it got so huge that the mods felt they had to delete it, especially since that section of the forum was always known to be "pruned" periodically. So just before its demise, we started a recurring thread, that we called "TWH" (the watering hole). A new TWH thread is started fresh every week, so the mods can delete the old ones, keeping the size of the files on the forum servers manageable.

It's still running strong after five or six years, and I think most of us who participate regularly in that thread consider all of the others to be good friends. People even travel across the country and meet up. Everyone hears about and commiserates with any problems, joys, or random subjects and thoughts people share. And the whole spirit of the thread is like meeting up with a bunch of friends at a club or barbeque, or something, where folks come and go at random and shoot the breeze about whatever happens to strike their fancy with whoever happens to be there at the time. It's actually a huge chore to keep up with everything if you decide to do that, because the thread is always very active.

There are always numerous, unrelated conversations going on all at once, but that's a lot of the fun of it. Like a bunch of people, all at the same party, but chatting with small groups within that larger gathering.

I've slacked off on visiting it so much recently because it can be such a huge time-sink. But I still pop in occasionally to try to keep up with my friends there.

Sorry to further pull THIS thread off track. Maybe a "club" or "picnic" or whatever we might call such a recurring weekly thread would be a nice thing to have here.
 

Danjamesdixon

Thanks for the tip Riv! (even if it was slightly too late for some of us ) and don't think I won't hold you to that garlic fry recipe!

Sorry to be a bore and get back on topic but I do still require assistance haha When the time comes to medicate my guppies, I will be treating them for external parasites in hope of ceasing them flashing. I will turn my attention to their ripped fins as and when the time comes (unless they heal up after the parasite is dealt with), but this is more serious in my eyes.

My question is - what are your recommendations to medicate for external parasites? Bearing in mind here in the UK it's nigh on impossible to get drugs over the counter.
 

Jsigmo

What sort of medications do you have available there?

And have you identified any new symptoms that might help narrow down a firm diagnosis?

I still wonder if it's largely due to a water quality issue, but it's so hard to know.

I hate the idea of dosing a tank with anything if we don't know what the problem really is.

Can you get better photos? Can you examine any fish under high magnification?
 

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