Are Ca Cichlids As Murderous As Their African Counterparts

Title basically says all.
I'm scrapping a South African tank because I'm tired of them killing each other and any I add.
Hoping this will be more manageable with some CA's so I can still have some nice color and character. Plus I already have a SA/Amazon tank so I'm looking for something new

 

I think the Central American Cichlids in general are far more aggressive and more colorful than most South Americans.
Red Devil - Midas - Texas - SalvinI - Firemouth (ect.)
Comparing aggression between African Cichlids & Central Americans; Africans are "Punch & Run" Centrals are "Knock out punchers". If you go the Central American route, construct a well planned hardscape, stock juveniles together in groups.

 

Yeah I have a mbuna tank and oh boy. To avoid getting this post deleted I'll just leave it at they're going to be out of the house by the end of the month.
I actually decided to go with South Americans but a dedicated cichlid tank(not angels with other tropicals). For the sake of how big my favorite CA's get and how mean they can get.
I'm thinking firemouths and electric blue acras for sure, maybe some convicts.

 

Look at the Salvini's before getting the Convicts. This pic is of a pair I once kept.

 

I totally forgot about those thanks for the reminder

 

Firemouths are Central American, not South. South Americans are generally a lot more peaceful than most Centrals... although there are some fairly peaceful Centrals.

 

That's why I opted for the firemouth. It's supposed to be more lax then most

 

Firemouths are schooling fish though, that live in small groups. They shouldn’t be kept singly. A group of about 6-12 is best, which needs quite a big tank (75g+).

 

Really, if you've got Cichlids in a mixed type tank, more is usually better than fewer to prevent aggression. If you're going to mix aggressive and non aggressive Cichlids in a tank, it's better to get a few of the smaller (when full grown) aggressive fish and a bigger proportion of larger non-aggressive types. So, it's just figuring out a balance in a tank. I just kept adding fish until they were so distracted and busy they couldn't focus on picking fights!

 

Firemouths are schooling fish though, that live in small groups. They shouldn’t be kept singly. A group of about 6-12 is best, which needs quite a big tank (75g+).

My apologies, but are you sure?
I've only been reading that females and juvies will shoal while males keep to themselves. I've also seen a lot of people saying large numbers can have problems. I did plan on more than one though

Really, if you've got Cichlids in a mixed type tank, more is usually better than fewer to prevent aggression. If you're going to mix aggressive and non aggressive Cichlids in a tank, it's better to get a few of the smaller (when full grown) aggressive fish and a bigger proportion of larger non-aggressive types. So, it's just figuring out a balance in a tank. I just kept adding fish until they were so distracted and busy they couldn't focus on picking fights!

I think I'll stick with convicts instead of salvinI since there's a fair difference in aggression. Do you have any recommendations for numbers of each?

 

My apologies, but are you sure?
I've only been reading that females and juvies will shoal while males keep to themselves. I've also seen a lot of people saying large numbers can have problems. I did plan on more than one though...

Yes. Pairs form, split off from the group to breed, then rejoin the group after the breeding season. Those problems only occur when the tank isn’t big enough for the group as individual pairs... and also because we tend to keep fish at their breeding temperatures all year round, so the group won’t reform.

They’re best in a small group, with enough space for them all as pairs to have a breeding territory of their own. But keeping a pair is doable at breeding temperatures.

 

Ah gotcha. That makes more sense, I'll have to put more thought into them then.
Is it the same with acras and convicts?

 

They’ll both live quite happily as pairs. Acaras are fairly peaceful for cichlids, convicts are not. They’ll tackle any fish of any size when they’re breeding. I would only risk them in a community with much bigger cichlids. I had two female convicts in a 180g a couple of years ago and the tank wasn’t big enough for both of them. They’re not normally as aggressive as Salvini... until they breed.

I wouldn’t mix acaras with Centrals though... totally different water requirements.

 

Oh I thought they overlapped a little bit, at least for ones that are domestic not wild caught.
Honestly I'm just looking for nice colors in a bigger package, but with less of a temper then my mbunas
That's probably not helpful but if you have any suggestions let me know

 

Well I suppose if you compromise on the water you could keep both, but I just wouldn’t risk convicts with small peaceful cichlids.
Do you have hard water? If so then Rainbow Cichlids (Herotilapia multispinosa) are about the most peaceful CA Cichlid.

 

I don't have hard water from the tap but I am capable of getting it there maintaining it in a tank though

 

If you have soft water why not go for some South Americans or West Africans?

 

Mostly lack of selection at the stores I go to, but also because all my other tanks (except mbuna) are SA Amazon setups or tropical.
Just wanting to change things up a little

Are kribensis west African? I've never heard of any fish specifically from that region

 

‘West African’ is used for all African fish that are not from the Rift Lakes. There’s hundreds of them... Pelvicachromis (including kribs), Jewels, Pelmatochromis, Nanochromis, Pseudocrenilabrus, Steatocranus... to name but a few of the smaller ones. They’re all from soft neutral-to-acid water.

 

I'll look into those then. Find what I like then com back to you.
Probably gonna skip jewels though. I've heard they're incredibly mean

 

Yeah jewels are like Malawis in the wrong water, lol.

If you want colour, look at the various Pelvicachromis spp, Enigmatochromis, Anomalochromis, Nanochromis, Pseudocrenilabrus (mouthbrooders, 1 male to several females).

 

I have had African cichlids. Really, when you're referring to African Cichlids, I think you should refer to them as 'river' or 'lake' Cichlids. The river Cichlids either CA,SA or African ALL tend to be more aggressive than the lake cichlids. In the lake cichlids, Mbuna seem to be the most aggressive. If you are stocking your tanks with a mixture of aggressive/non-aggressive Cichlids, putting large aggressive cichlids with smaller or same size non-aggressive cichlids, under or over stocking your tanks, mixing breeding groups with aggressive singles, carnovours with omnivores, SA's/Ca's with Africans they're GOING TO beat each other up and kill each other. I know dozens of people with hundreds of tanks FULL of Cichlids that co-habitat peacefully. No one species, kept appropriately, is a "murderous" type. No offense nikm128 but I think maybe you have had the wrong 'mix' and that's why you've had problems. CHECK OUT the availability of this breeder/sellers site (his 'available' list).
Cichlid Lovers | Price List
He lives here in Arizona. Pay special attention to the "Copadiochromis azureus OB" Alan developed that one over years of careful breeding. His Cichlids are almost all African Lake Cichlid and prefer hard alkaline water.

 

The river Cichlids either CA,SA or African ALL tend to be more aggressive than the lake cichlids....... No one species [of cichlid], kept appropriately, is a "murderous" type.

These two points are simply not true.

The African Lake cichlids tend to be more aggressive than most African or SA riverine cichlids. It’s in their nature as they often live in close proximity, in holes in rocks that don’t afford them a safe territory size for breeding. Plus the same goes for their feeding territories. Even most CA cichlids, from lake or river, are peaceful if given enough space.
There are exceptions... species such as the large Hemichromis spp or some of the Tilapias, that are “murderous” in any size tank.

 

Momgoose56 I haven't mixed any cichlid type with each other. The problem tank that I'm considering taking down is just mbunas from lake Malawi. They're in a 55 gallon tank with 3x as many hiding places as fish. There were no issues the first 5 ish months, but then they started killing each other and I can't even over or fully stock to spread aggression. They kill everything I add regardless of size or number.
So I was hoping to switch to something equally colorful with the famous personally cichlids have, but less eager to kill.

 

Maybe just trade in the Mbuna and build a male only Aulonocara Peacock tank. I've got a 120 gal. Mostly male Aulonocara & Hap tank. Lots of color and manageable aggression.
Going back to your original question regarding Central American Cichlid aggression vrs. African Cichlid aggression;
Here's a pic of my murderous Red Texas Flowerhorn (a Frankenstein monster built w/Central American cichlid parts)
With his buddy, an adult male, equally murderous, OB peacock hybrid. Their horrible attitudes ended up a stalemate.

 

I'll think about that one, but wow that flowerhorn is stunning! I'm on the fence about several smaller fish, or just 1-2 big ones.
My tank is more square then rectangular. Very wide instead of long.
Would it be possible to keep a solo flowerhorn, JD, or Texas?
Wow I probably should've put this in the stocking forum

 

Maybe just trade in the Mbuna and build a male only Aulonocara Peacock tank. I've got a 120 gal. Mostly male Aulonocara & Hap tank. Lots of color and manageable aggression.
Going back to your original question regarding Central American Cichlid aggression vrs. African Cichlid aggression;
Here's a pic of my murderous Red Texas Flowerhorn (a Frankenstein monster built w/Central American cichlid parts)
With his buddy, an adult male, equally murderous, OB peacock hybrid. Their horrible attitudes ended up a stalemate. View attachment 522173

Right therr you have a very large aggressive hybrid cichlid, considered an invasive species and banned in some places in with a species that is more peaceful in general when kept with others of their 'type' (same lake/same region). It's no brainer that you're going to have aggression problems between them.

Momgoose56 I haven't mixed any cichlid type with each other. The problem tank that I'm considering taking down is just mbunas from lake Malawi. They're in a 55 gallon tank with 3x as many hiding places as fish. There were no issues the first 5 ish months, but then they started killing each other and I can't even over or fully stock to spread aggression. They kill everything I add regardless of size or number.
So I was hoping to switch to something equally colorful with the famous personally cichlids have, but less eager to kill.

Got a picture of your tank?

 

Not the current tank but their growout yes. I also have a picture of each fish if those would help too.



The snow whites in there are no longer with us

 

What about severum? They come in many different color morphs and are pretty tame. If you're really looking for color how about an electric blue jack Dempsey? Mine is docile enough that hes with angelfish in harmony.

 

For some reason severums aren't very popular around here which makes them harder to get. The electric blue JD is absolutely stunning though. If I go through with the tank swap I'll definitely get one of them

 

What gender are those labs? If you've got 2 males in there and a female, there's part of your problem with aggression. You'll have to look at the vent to tell them apart. The males usually, but don't always, have the black on the fin. What is the blue one and the uncolored ones? Is that a julie in the first pic?
The other huge problem I see is that you DON'T have enough rocks and caves and the tank is way under stocked with the wrong combo of Mbuna.
The mbuna keeper's survival guide
I had a ton of Yellow labs and 2 DemasonI males + a few blue zebras that were cross breeding with the Demasoni. No problems whatsoever with aggression. BUT you have to replicate their 'comfort zone'. Stacks of large rocks with multiple caves, piles of smaller rocks, shells they can move around, small-ish gravel or sand they can dig in, and sightline breaks. I don't see much of that. What are your tank dimensions? It looks more square than long. Luckyyyy! You could make that SO AWESOME! What I'd do right off the bat is get about 9 or 10 more big rocks, a bunch of flat rocks, and handfuls of ping pong ball sized rocks and a dozen medium snail shells. Put stacks of big and flat rocks in the back 1/2 of the tank, either in opposite corners or stretching across the back with LOTS of caves. Stack them at least to half the height of the water. Put piles of smaller stones around the tank and scatter the shells. Next I'd rehome one of the Male labs (unless they're all males and more caves will fix that problem) And I'd get more fish that are compatible with the ones you have. You could easily have (with adequate filtration and the right combination of mbuna) 25 cichlids in that tank!


This is part of tank I'm cycling for cichlids now. Same type setup I always have for them with great success. At least 20 caves, various sizes, all the way around and more on the other end of the tank.

 

That's actually just their 20 high growout from a few weeks ago so I was already pushing it by having that many in there.
To my knowledge I don't have any labs; which ones are you referring to? It's probably the 2 female auratus
The blue one is a female kenyI and there's a male kenyI too, but he's changed color already.
I'm assuming you mean the brown ones as uncolored? I don't know the common name, but they're lodotropheus sperengerae. If you meant the white ones they are Snow White socolofI
I won't be able to get a pic of their current tank as I'm out of town at the moment but I could show you the tank without setup if you'd like. I'll give dimensions too

18" wide, 3' long, 2' tall
Sorry for the slow response

 

Just wanted to let people know that not all Mbuna are nasty.

I had a Mbuna tank for a few years. Not one fish got injured in those years. I even had some fry surviving in that tank. I researched the fish before buying, did a fishless cycle and added them all at the same time (18 I think). I only had 3 different varieties. Yellow labs, Cynotilapia sp. Hara and Labeotropheus chilumba.

I would never stock kennyi, auratus or johanni. I've heard too many bad stories about them. Unfortunately those are usually the ones commonly stocked in the big box stores.

I also had a 4 foot tank with rocks stacked from bottom to top. One hidey-hole for each fish won't be enough.

Wish I still had the pictures, but lost them when my hard drive got fried.

 

Totally agree, surprisingly the auratus are the most peaceful out of that tank.
Unfortunately I think I am sending them to someone with a nicely scaped 120g.

 

I have 2 Electric Blue Acaras, 2 firemouths, a threadfin acara and a female convict in my 80 gallon and they all get along very well. My bigger eba is the boss of the tank. What did you decide to put in your tank? Just curious

 

I'm curious too. I have a jaguar cichlid, still waiting for it to grow more to be able to sex it before I finally decide on a tank build and possibly mates for it.

 

I have 2 Electric Blue Acaras, 2 firemouths, a threadfin acara and a female convict in my 80 gallon and they all get along very well. My bigger eba is the boss of the tank. What did you decide to put in your tank? Just curious

Haven't decided yet actually, though I might do a saltwater tank. That or a bigger one for my discus

 

Haven't decided yet actually, though I might do a saltwater tank. That or a bigger one for my discus

A salt water tank would be cool. I was thinking of doing that in my little 30 gallon one day as well.

 

Yeah the only thing being difficult right now is whether I should build my own setup (for a small fortune) or risk jumping right into it by buying a full setup, maybe even with fish for a slightly smaller fortune than it would be to do it myself

 

Yeah the only thing being difficult right now is whether I should build my own setup (for a small fortune) or risk jumping right into it by buying a full setup, maybe even with fish for a slightly smaller fortune than it would be to do it myself

For sure. At first I was thinking of doing it in my 80 gallon but looking into it, it is very expensive. So decided to get cichlids instead and bigger cichlids in my 125. And possibly do the salt water in the smaller 30 tank. It is soo pretty and cool but yes definitely a fortune lol.