Any ideas? Neon Tetra Mouth

DLishDJ

I have had these neon tetras for about 6 months now and my first though was they got a fungus disease like columnaris / cottonmouth. But I have treated it with all kinds of bacterial treatment. From kanaplex to erythromicin. It just keeps getting slower bigger and bigger. I just don't know what it is at this point or what to do. I am scared to put any other tetras in there. But it is just the neons that have these white month cluster. They are hard as a rock not fuzzy or soft. Any one have a idea?

Also I have Guppies, Phantom Cats, and a Bristlenose in the tank with them and they have had no signs of getting any fungus or anything. Which is strange
 

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Rits

Get all diseased fish out ASAP. This is Neon Tetra Disease!!! Put them in a quarantine container!

How to Manage Deadly Neon Tetra Disease

I would do a water change and make sure all fish are accounted for and none have died. If any have died, remove immediately.
 

DLishDJ

Get all diseased fish out ASAP. This is Neon Tetra Disease!!! Put them in a quarantine container!

How to Manage Deadly Neon Tetra Disease

I would do a water change and make sure all fish are accounted for and none have died. If any have died, remove immediately.
Would of neon tetra disease killed all my fish in the tank by now? The tetras have not lost any coloring/nor swim wrongly. This has been going on for months. I have not lost any fish and no all of my other fish are healthy and happy.
 

Rits

I wouldnt risk it. Ive seen mouths like that and it was almost always NTD. They need to be put in a separate tank. You can treat them in the quarantine. Keeping them in your tank could kill all your tank inhabitants.
 

DLishDJ

Neon Tetra disease is untreatable
 

Rits

Doesnt hurt to try.
 

vyrille

I have had these neon tetras for about 6 months now and my first though was they got a fungus disease like columnaris / cottonmouth. But I have treated it with all kinds of bacterial treatment. From kanaplex to erythromicin. It just keeps getting slower bigger and bigger. I just don't know what it is at this point or what to do. I am scared to put any other tetras in there. But it is just the neons that have these white month cluster. They are hard as a rock not fuzzy or soft. Any one have a idea?

Also I have Guppies, Phantom Cats, and a Bristlenose in the tank with them and they have had no signs of getting any fungus or anything. Which is strange
Hello, are these the only two neons that have this growth? Or are these 6 different individuals?
 

DoubleDutch

It isn't NTD.

It is often seen in Neons nowadays.
It could be false NTD (Columnaris strain) and I still have the suspecion it is a viral issue.

It is neonspecific, not lethal and not treatable. Clean water and up the circumstances can make things better.
 

DLishDJ

Do you recommend a water change for the tank I just did on yesterday. I know it’s spread once they died and other fish eat the body.


If I can not get it them any better, would it be better to euthanize them? I don’t want them to hurt and stress.

Hello, are these the only two neons that have this growth? Or are these 6 different individuals?
This is just two neon tetras

It isn't NTD.

It is often seen in Neons nowadays.
It could be false NTD (Columnaris strain) and I still have the suspecion it is a viral issue.

It is neonspecific, not lethal and not treatable. Clean water and up the circumstances can make things better.
I didn’t think it was NTD, it just on the 2 neons, they eat good as much as they can. They have good colors and are very active and swim together.
 

vyrille

I agree it doesn't seem to be NTD, but it doesn't appear to be false NTD either. It does seem to be viral though, as the chances of a neoplasm growing on two fish at the same area at the same time is particularly unlikely. Without a biopsy my guess is as good as any, but I would speculate it's a variant papillomatosis primarily affecting the mouth region. Unfortunately I don't have a prognosis for these, as I've only ever encountered these on necropsy specimens. Luckily, viral infections are often species-specific (or conspecific, anyway), and should it turn out to be indeed viral, transmission to other fish is unlikely...unless of course you decide to add neons, or other tetras for that matter.
 

DoubleDutch

I agree it doesn't seem to be NTD, but it doesn't appear to be false NTD either. It does seem to be viral though, as the chances of a neoplasm growing on two fish at the same area at the same time is particularly unlikely. Without a biopsy my guess is as good as any, but I would speculate it's a variant papillomatosis primarily affecting the mouth region. Unfortunately I don't have a prognosis for these, as I've only ever encountered these on necropsy specimens. Luckily, viral infections are often species-specific (or conspecific, anyway), and should it turn out to be indeed viral, transmission to other fish is unlikely...unless of course you decide to add neons, or other tetras for that matter.
Only specific thing pointing me towards Columnaris are the whitish spots in the tailfin.
 

vyrille

Only specific thing pointing me towards Columnaris are the whitish spots in the tailfin.
Admittedly, I had dismissed the spots as artifacts; on such small fish it can be hard to tell sometimes. I consider the first indication of columnaris presenting on the fin as erosion (more commonly, fin rot. which can develop as rapidly as overnight), but these look healthy tails to me.

And to be honest, the vets I trained under never mentioned 'false neon tetra disease' even once. It was explained that neon tetra columnaris is the same columnaris as any other, it's just that the characteristic 'saddleback' lesion we associate with columnaris is often mistaken as NTD when it appears on neons, hence the term. And growths like on these specimens are not associated with a columnaris infection anyway.
 

DLishDJ

Admittedly, I had dismissed the spots as artifacts; on such small fish it can be hard to tell sometimes. I consider the first indication of columnaris presenting on the fin as erosion (more commonly, fin rot. which can develop as rapidly as overnight), but these look healthy tails to me.

And to be honest, the vets I trained under never mentioned 'false neon tetra disease' even once. It was explained that neon tetra columnaris is the same columnaris as any other, it's just that the characteristic 'saddleback' lesion we associate with columnaris is often mistaken as NTD when it appears on neons, hence the term. And growths like on these specimens are not associated with a columnaris infection anyway.
I am supposed to have candy cane tetras going into this tank, should I remove the neons and the place them into there own tank to make sure it does not spread?

It is just so weird, that’s it just on the neons. If it is just species viral.

They have healthy tails, colors, eat amazing, playful.

I have noticed that the white lump has grow from the inside of the mouth to the outside. Same of both fish and it just slowly growing until they won’t be able to eat.

I just don’t want them to suffer. And trying to figured out the best solution.
 

DoubleDutch

Admittedly, I had dismissed the spots as artifacts; on such small fish it can be hard to tell sometimes. I consider the first indication of columnaris presenting on the fin as erosion (more commonly, fin rot. which can develop as rapidly as overnight), but these look healthy tails to me.

And to be honest, the vets I trained under never mentioned 'false neon tetra disease' even once. It was explained that neon tetra columnaris is the same columnaris as any other, it's just that the characteristic 'saddleback' lesion we associate with columnaris is often mistaken as NTD when it appears on neons, hence the term. And growths like on these specimens are not associated with a columnaris infection anyway.
Hahahaha this is so funny.
I've always had the suspecion this is a viral issue and telling so in several threads.
Ever so often I was corrected that it was Columnaris causing this woohahahha.
 

crazycracker

Sure it ain't fish herpes? Any fish can get them
 

DLishDJ

Sure it ain't fish herpes? Any fish can get them
I have multiple types of fish in that tank, I think they would of all had it by now
 

vyrille

I am supposed to have candy cane tetras going into this tank, should I remove the neons and the place them into there own tank to make sure it does not spread?

It is just so weird, that’s it just on the neons. If it is just species viral.

They have healthy tails, colors, eat amazing, playful.

I have noticed that the white lump has grow from the inside of the mouth to the outside. Same of both fish and it just slowly growing until they won’t be able to eat.

I just don’t want them to suffer. And trying to figured out the best solution.
Yes, I've forgotten to mention that this is squamous in nature, meaning it originates the inside lining of the mouth. a similar lesion is reported on eels called 'somatopapilloma' and is also suspected to be viral in nature. As for the candy cane tetras...I don't want to scare you but viruses are very difficult to completely remove from a system. You remember the debate of whether viruses are considered living things or not? That's because they become nothing more than pieces of protein outside a host...and can wait forever in suspended animation under the most adverse conditions until they find their next target cell. We've found viable viruses trapped under the ice for millions of years, so there's that. So I cannot say in confidence that introducing tetras there would be advisable. I mean if it were me, I wouldn't, and keep equipment separate from now on (nets, heaters, etc). On the other hand, you might be lucky and it may turn out that condition is strictly on those neons only. I honestly can't say.
Hahahaha this is so funny.
I've always had the suspecion this is a viral issue and telling so in several threads.
Ever so often I was corrected that it was Columnaris causing this woohahahha.
Well, some infections do cause growths, like say, metacercaciae infestation, lymphocystis, and so on, but not columnaris. If you look at a tissue sample of a columnaris infection under a microscope, you'll find necrosis and tissue liquefaction, resulting into the nasty ulcers on gross examination. Columnaris is an erosive process - it causing growths is a physiological paradox.
Sure it ain't fish herpes? Any fish can get them
Any fish can get it true, but as far as we know, the virus is species specific. Say, koi herpes (Herpesvirus cyprini) will not affect say, catfish, which have their own herpes virus strain (ictalurid herpesvirus), and so on.
 

Bluebellie

I don’t get tetras anymore because there’s always kill off my tanks. I don’t think what you have is NTD. Usually with NTD, all the fishes start dying really quickly one by one except the tetras. You don’t see it coming and it’s impossible to treat.
 

DLishDJ

Yes, I've forgotten to mention that this is squamous in nature, meaning it originates the inside lining of the mouth. a similar lesion is reported on eels called 'somatopapilloma' and is also suspected to be viral in nature. As for the candy cane tetras...I don't want to scare you but viruses are very difficult to completely remove from a system. You remember the debate of whether viruses are considered living things or not? That's because they become nothing more than pieces of protein outside a host...and can wait forever in suspended animation under the most adverse conditions until they find their next target cell. We've found viable viruses trapped under the ice for millions of years, so there's that. So I cannot say in confidence that introducing tetras there would be advisable. I mean if it were me, I wouldn't, and keep equipment separate from now on (nets, heaters, etc). On the other hand, you might be lucky and it may turn out that condition is strictly on those neons only. I honestly can't say.

Well, some infections do cause growths, like say, metacercaciae infestation, lymphocystis, and so on, but not columnaris. If you look at a tissue sample of a columnaris infection under a microscope, you'll find necrosis and tissue liquefaction, resulting into the nasty ulcers on gross examination. Columnaris is an erosive process - it causing growths is a physiological paradox.

Any fish can get it true, but as far as we know, the virus is species specific. Say, koi herpes (Herpesvirus cyprini) will not affect say, catfish, which have their own herpes virus strain (ictalurid herpesvirus), and so on.

I think I’m going to try putting them into a different tank, that I have cause I don’t have another tank for the candy canes and hope it just for the neons. Like I said I have fish in there that are more prone to disease and they have no signs of what the neons had.
 

Redshark1

DLishDJ I've looked closely at your photos.

I believe I have had this issue on several purchased Neon Tetra.

In my case it gradually faded away without causing deaths attributed to it. It did not spread to other species.

I have seen this problem increase in frequency on the forum and have noted that with other people's fish it often gets worse leading to death.

DoubleDutch has said it may be viral and specific to Neon Tetra and I am inclined to agree until I see evidence to the contrary because what he suggests is backed up by the evidence I have seen.

My approach to these problems is to provide optimum care in as many factors as possible in the hope that the immune system of the fish can fight off the disease. I only use medications where I am convinced there are cases where they made a positive difference.

Whitespot/ich is a good example where I feel medications are useful.

In the case of this issue and others such as suspected Columnaris and Neon Tetra Disease I haven't yet seen evidence to suggest that medications are of help.
 

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