Antibiotics In The Aquarium

It lately has made me really worried that people who are using drugs don't really understand the scope of what they're buying. Canada has antibiotics in meds banned, but the states does not (not sure about other countries). I think this should be a conversation we have with ourselves more often...
does anybody know of a safe way to dispose of water that uses antibiotics? or meds in general? I don't know what I'm doing, clearly.
It makes me feel really nervous that consumers can just buy any antibiotic straight off the shelf... this is definitely a big hole in health policy

 

I didn't read the link, but this is a very serious issue. We're creating superbugs that are indestructible. They're actually having to go back and use antibiotics that were banned from the 1950s to kill stuff that we used to be able to get rid of very easily. Most countries have doctors record every single time they prescribe an antibiotic, so there's data and it's controlled. The U.S. doesn't have any type of control on it, and I believe the whole topic of it is in like 70th something place (can't remember exactly) on the list of the government's top priorities. That's scary.

 

I didn't read the link, but this is a very serious issue. We're creating superbugs that are indestructible. They're actually having to go back and use antibiotics that were banned from the 1950s to kill stuff that we used to be able to get rid of very easily. Most countries have doctors record every single time they prescribe an antibiotic, so there's data and it's controlled. The U.S. doesn't have any type of control on it, and I believe the whole topic of it is in like 70th something place (can't remember exactly) on the list of the government's top priorities. That's scary.

you know, aquarium co op recommends 2 antibiotics in their quarantine trio
this means every new hobbiest looking for someone to listen to is probably doing this... that is very unsettling
look up what erythromycin and metronidazole treat. It's pretty heavy stuff

 

Pour it out in the garden.
Or do like most mfrs instruct and neutralize with carbon (for 24 hrs before changing water after treatment).

 

Pour it out in the garden.

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to pour it outside because it can still make it's way into other local bodies of water... I think.

 

I'm also not really understanding how carbon can neutralize antibiotics

 

you know, aquarium co op recommends 2 antibiotics in their quarantine trio
this means every new hobbiest looking for someone to listen to is probably doing this... that is very unsettling
look up what erythromycin and metronidazole treat. It's pretty heavy stuff

It's a bad idea. Erythromycin doesn't work well in a bath and most of its activity is against Gram positive bacteria. Most bacterial infections in fish are Gram negative so it's not doing anything.

Metronidazole is already overused in animals and humans. Pigeon fanciers use it a lot and there's widespread resistance.

 

It lately has made me really worried that people who are using drugs don't really understand the scope of what they're buying. Canada has antibiotics in meds banned, but the states does not (not sure about other countries). I think this should be a conversation we have with ourselves more often...
does anybody know of a safe way to dispose of water that uses antibiotics? or meds in general? I don't know what I'm doing, clearly.
It makes me feel really nervous that consumers can just buy any antibiotic straight off the shelf... this is definitely a big hole in health policy

Good thinking Addie.
The overuse of meds / antibiotics in Asia (breeding) and the misuse / overuse in the west are taking their toll.
One look in the disease section of this forum tells enough I think.
Antibiotics are banned here also.

 

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to pour it outside because it can still make it's way into other local bodies of water... I think.

I’m not suggesting disposal to flowing or standing water, quite the opposite. We’re trying to find alternatives to pouring treated water down the sink, drain or toilet, right?
If one doesn’t have the ability, extra tanks or media-flexible filters to neutralize medicated water prior to disposal, your back yard can be a good option (unless you’re a few feet from a stream or pond). The soil holds the water long enough for the biological activity to break the med down.
All I’m saying is it’s better that pouring it down the drain.

 

When I was a child in the Dark Ages, my doctor prescribed Erythromycin for an infection I had. Even back then, he was careful to instruct my parents to use the drug properly because of the dangers involved with its improper use. Today it's being used like a tonic by some people in their fishtanks.

It's scary to read some of the threads on here; new hobbyists who have just purchased their first fish, and give them a single treatment, or even a half-dose, of one or more powerful antibiotlcs as a preventative measure, "just in case". People who keep a half-dozen assorted bottles of assorted unknown medications, and squirt them around willy-nilly every time one of their fish blinks funny or has an off-colour poop. Behaviour like this comes straight from the How To Create Resistant Bacteria textbook.

And that's before they dispose of the stuff. Not everything breaks down in the soil, or in a reasonable length of time. There are studies that list the detectable pollutants in the Great Lakes, and reading that list is an eye-opener. Antibiotics, industrial cleaners, literally dozens or hundreds of chemicals and compounds that got into the Lakes due to improper disposal...or, in some cases, when "proper disposal" methods were used and later found to be ineffective.

Manufacturers tell you to use carbon after you nuke your tank. Great! The carbon removes the meds from the tank water...which is all the company cares about...and then what do you do with the antibiotic-saturated carbon? They don't tell you and don't care.

Folks, stop worrying and fretting about your Walstad tanks, and about trying to create a closed, "balanced" system in 15 gallons of water. We are living in the only fully-functional closed biological system that we have yet discovered. It's a thin layer wrapped around the whole planet and, like the bulk of the tanks that get discussed on Fishlore...it is getting more and more screwed up by the minute.

"Urgent! Help! My fish are dying! Why?"...sound familiar?

 

A 24 YO woman just gave birth in a hospital right in Ottawa and she died from antibiotic resistant strep https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ayesha-riaz-new-mother-dies-strep-childbirth-1.4567078
if that doesn't make you want to cry, I don't know what else will
I don't know why this issue is so overlooked, I just wish there was a way to bring attention to everyone buying bottled tuberculosis meds... the US government really needs to start doing better in their policies

 

I’m not suggesting disposal to flowing or standing water, quite the opposite. We’re trying to find alternatives to pouring treated water down the sink, drain or toilet, right?
If one doesn’t have the ability, extra tanks or media-flexible filters to neutralize medicated water prior to disposal, your back yard can be a good option (unless you’re a few feet from a stream or pond). The soil holds the water long enough for the biological activity to break the med down.
All I’m saying is it’s better that pouring it down the drain.

Overhere water that goes down the drain is filtered and chemicals and stuff is taken out of it. Rainwater / water from the streets directly flow in ditches / canals.

 

Dumping it outside is the issue. Bacteria is everywhere. We need to stop introducing antibiotics to the environment. Everytime a bacterium is exposed to an antibiotic it builds resistance. Some bacteria are also capable of gene sharing where they can literally just touch other bacterium and exchange genes, including their newly learned antibacterial resistance. These bacteria are able to gene share even with bacteria that cannot gene share, but those bacteria can pass the genes on to their offspring. All antibiotics eventually lose their effectiveness because of this. It's really fascinating stuff, but also very concerning.

 

You guys gotta watch this clip
My boyfriend loves this apocalypse prep show, apparently some people are stock piling fish medications for the apocalypse. Oh, the irony. The end of the world will likely be antibiotic resistant bacteria

 

Looks like I'll be the only one in this thread with such an opinion, but I am absolutely against any additional restrictions over access to antibiotics. I live in the US, but I know it's already terrible in the UK where you literally can NOT buy a tube with bacitracin / neomycin in it and your scratches can take weeks to heal instead of a few days with proper treatment available elsewhere.

There are so many other contaminants that pollute the body of water and I am fairly sure there are even more of those that we are still unaware of! Gasoline leaks, motor oil, other industrial waste - and we are talking gallons and tons here, not milligrams/grams like with antibiotics! And another food for thought - lots of meds may not metabolize fully and get extracted by your kidneys in almost an intact way. What it basically means (and sorry for somewhat vivid description) is that we pee those meds out in large quantities and then they get into the sewer the same way antibiotics in the water from tanks do. That said, the problem might very well be much broader, but IMO it's solution should be more within the space of "let's think of wastewater purification methods" instead of "let's just ban something". That's my 2c, of course.

And no, I am not a fan of antibiotics myself, but at the same time they are sometimes the last resort and work when nothing else helps. I had terrible coughing all week that has only been getting worse every day and it only started getting better when I started a course of antibiotics...

 

I don't think that most of us are suggesting that antibiotic use should stop; I know I'm not.

I am suggesting that they should not be made available over the counter to everybody and his cat. Antibiotics should be prescription-only; a doctor should determine which, if any, of them would be effective, and will then take pains to impress upon the patient the importance of using them properly. "Using them properly" does not include buying them in unrestricted quantities, and then utilizing them in half doses, or until you "seem to feel better" or perhaps as a preventative just-in-case technique. This is not merely a disaster waiting to happen; it is a disaster that is happening now, with more and more antibiotic-resistant bacteria cropping up constantly.

The other toxic pollutants you listed are killing living organisms; but unrestricted antibiotic use is much worse. It is creating unkillable pathogens that are already causing deaths.

I own and drive a car. I need to be a certain minimum age to do so, and require training, licencing, a knowledge of the rules of the road, and the maturity and intelligence to obey them. I don't think it's unreasonable to treat antibiotics the same way.

 

Looks like I'll be the only one in this thread with such an opinion, but I am absolutely against any additional restrictions over access to antibiotics. I live in the US, but I know it's already terrible in the UK where you literally can NOT buy a tube with bacitracin / neomycin in it and your scratches can take weeks to heal instead of a few days with proper treatment available elsewhere.

There are so many other contaminants that pollute the body of water and I am fairly sure there are even more of those that we are still unaware of! Gasoline leaks, motor oil, other industrial waste - and we are talking gallons and tons here, not milligrams/grams like with antibiotics! And another food for thought - lots of meds may not metabolize fully and get extracted by your kidneys in almost an intact way. What it basically means (and sorry for somewhat vivid description) is that we pee those meds out in large quantities and then they get into the sewer the same way antibiotics in the water from tanks do. That said, the problem might very well be much broader, but IMO it's solution should be more within the space of "let's think of wastewater purification methods" instead of "let's just ban something". That's my 2c, of course.

And no, I am not a fan of antibiotics myself, but at the same time they are sometimes the last resort and work when nothing else helps. I had terrible coughing all week that has only been getting worse every day and it only started getting better when I started a course of antibiotics...

I think most of us are with you on that, it’s just the accelerating issue of antibiotic resistant bacteria that is so terrifying. We will end up dying of things that antibiotics used to treat... penicillin used to treat gonorrhoea but not anymore
It’s a little bit ridiculous that antibiotics are so available, especially since not everyone realizes that they’re buying them at all.
Your doctor probably gave you specific instructions to finish your antibiotics, yeah? This is an example of antibiotics being way too available.
Waste issues are totally worth worrying about, but it’s a little bit crazy to think about the impact of antibiotic resistant bacteria...

if you’re interested in medicine, check out this guys channel. This girl almost died from a MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureu) from a hospital visit from misconduct and unfortunate sterility events

 

From a microbiological perspective, once bacteria is exposed to an antibiotic and develops immunity, it's almost impossible to contain.

From a chemistry perspective, it's much easier to mix than to separate chemicals. Not using an antibiotic is a million times easier than developing a sewer system that's escape-proof for bacteria or that filters out everything.

We're not really losing anything if there's an antibiotic ban. Most aquarists are using drugs willy nilly. Metronidazole and praziquantel if they don't like the look of the poop. Erythromycin for Gram negative infections. Kanamycin underdosed.

With other pets, if you can't afford a vet or can't find one, people will tell you not to get that pet. Should apply to fish, too.

 

I am suggesting that they should not be made available over the counter to everybody and his cat. Antibiotics should be prescription-only

Well, I only honestly hope this will never be this way. I don't know if it's different in Canada, but it will essentially be a death sentence for a fish in the US if it ever gets anything that can be easily treated with antibiotic, but to get one you need to go to a vet. Good luck looking for a vet like this - I know, where I live, it's essentially impossible or absolutely cost-prohibitive.

With other pets, if you can't afford a vet or can't find one, people will tell you not to get that pet. Should apply to fish, too.

Wow, this is probably one of the scariest and "elitist" things I've heard on this forum :-( It's enough for me with what pharma greed did to US healthcare, and now apparently the same should apply to pet care too :-(

 

Well, I only honestly hope this will never be this way. I don't know if it's different in Canada, but it will essentially be a death sentence for a fish in the US if it ever gets anything that can be easily treated with antibiotic, but to get one you need to go to a vet. Good luck looking for a vet like this - I know, where I live, it's essentially impossible or absolutely cost-prohibitive.

Strangely, I don't hear of fish dying by the droves in the UK, AUS, or EU. Fish die here despite antibiotic availability because the aquarist doesn't diagnose in time or diagnoses incorrectly. Many don't have antibiotics on hand and have to order it. Then they often use the wrong antibiotic (erythromycin) or the wrong dosage (Kanaplex).

Wow, this is probably one of the scariest and "elitist" things I've heard on this forum :-( It's enough for me with what pharma greed did to US healthcare, and now apparently the same should apply to pet care too :-(

Try going to an exotic animal forum and saying you want to get that animal but can't afford proper housing or veterinary care. Or even a

Some states even consider failure to provide veterinary care animal cruelty.

 

This isn't fish related exactly but antibiotic related. I'm a staph and mrsa carrier. Yes a carrier and it can reinfect me just from getting run down. I have chrones and after my intestines ruptured I was on all kinds of antibiotic to kill the abdominal infections hence were in at today. When I get infections typical oral antibiotics are no help. So it happens in use just as it does are pets. Look into old school treatments. Potasium pomegranate, peroxide, salt you would be amazed at what the first 2 kill off and since they kill it and not just control the growth of the bacteria it can not create any resistance to it.

 

This isn’t an elitist discussion. This is a discussion about fear of the misuse of antibiotics, which is more than valid. Please do not get personally offended because this isn’t a personal attack on anyone, you need to realize that antibiotic resistant bacteria are one of the greatest risks we face, besides getting bombed

There are other ways to treat your fish besides antibiotics. This doesn’t eliminate all meds. Methylene blue pretty much destroys everything in a dip and praziquantel is still around for internal parasites... we still have salt... we still have Ick meds. Maybe there needs to be more research done for other effective fish treatments... just not ones that put our health at risk.

The United States of America does not deserve to sell tuberculosis antibiotics in a cutesy fish bottle. This is a big hazard and there is no warning on what it is

 

Not to be overly pedantic, but exposure to antibiotics doesn't "make" bacteria resistant to them, but instead acts as an evolutionary pressure that favors bacteria carrying a mutation which makes them resistant. It's a narrow distinction, but an important one nonetheless. Also, not to burst any bubbles, but bacteria strains are not unique in there ability to develop resistances, all other organisms will eventually do so, fungI will become antifungal resistant, viruses antiviral, etc...

 

Not to be overly pedantic, but exposure to antibiotics doesn't "make" bacteria resistant to them, but instead acts as an evolutionary pressure that favors bacteria carrying a mutation which makes them resistant. It's a narrow distinction, but an important one nonetheless. Also, not to burst any bubbles, but bacteria strains are not unique in there ability to develop resistances, all other organisms will eventually do so, fungI will become antifungal resistant, viruses antiviral, etc...

But it is a concern that antibiotics we use to treat serious things are being overused by people in their tanks, yes? Overusing accelerates the issue

I’m talking about people who have like 5 angels in a 10 gallon and are buying erythromycin because they have no clue what they’re doing. And also aquarium co op for telling everyone to use erythromycin and metrodinzale on every new fish as a precaution
I’m not talking people using Kanaplex because their fish is about to die from dropsy/ pop eye... I do believe in some cases it’s valid and it’s sad that vets are so expensive. I just want to bring up that there’s an issue, since nobody wants to talk about it

 

But it is a concern that antibiotics we use to treat serious things are being overused by people in their tanks, yes? Overusing accelerates the issue

I’m talking about people who have like 5 angels in a 10 gallon and are buying erythromycin because they have no clue what they’re doing. And also aquarium co op for telling everyone to use erythromycin and metrodinzale on every new fish as a precaution
I’m not talking people using Kanaplex because their fish is about to die from dropsy/ pop eye... I do believe in some cases it’s valid and it’s sad that vets are so expensive. I just want to bring up that there’s an issue, since nobody wants to talk about it

I entirely agree that people should avoid using antibiotics whenever possible, just pointing out that "Lamarckian evolution" isn't the mechanism underlying AMR.

 

Not to be overly pedantic, but exposure to antibiotics doesn't "make" bacteria resistant to them, but instead acts as an evolutionary pressure that favors bacteria carrying a mutation which makes them resistant. It's a narrow distinction, but an important one nonetheless. Also, not to burst any bubbles, but bacteria strains are not unique in there ability to develop resistances, all other organisms will eventually do so, fungI will become antifungal resistant, viruses antiviral, etc...

It's called environmental, or horizontal, gene transfer, and it's actually extremely unique compared to other organisms. Exposure to antibiotics is exactly the cause for their ability to become more resistant. I just finished a microbiology class, and we went over this exact topic many times throughout the class.

 

Resistance is the result of use of antibiotics. If they weren't used there wouldn't be selection for resistant bacteria.

 

It's called environmental, or horizontal, gene transfer, and it's actually extremely unique compared to other organisms. Exposure to antibiotics is exactly the cause for their ability to become more resistant. I just finished a microbiology class, and we went over this exact topic many times throughout the class.

All this time I've been wondering if I was the only aquarist to have taken microbio...

 

All this time I've been wondering if I was the only aquarist to have taken microbio...

Lol. I can honestly say it's my favorite class to have taken.

 

It's called environmental, or horizontal, gene transfer, and it's actually extremely unique compared to other organisms. Exposure to antibiotics is exactly the cause for their ability to become more resistant. I just finished a microbiology class, and we went over this exact topic many times throughout the class.

Horizontal Gene Transfer is an important factor contributing to the rate at which bacterial strains become antibiotic resistant, but it's simply a means of transferring genetic material. It doesn't change the Darwinian nature of the process taking place: in an environment full of antibiotics, bacteria with mutations making them less susceptible to antibiotics have a higher probability of surviving and passing on their genetic material, by whatever means that transfer may occur. The antibiotics aren't making individual bacterium resistant any more than tall trees make a giraffe's neck longer.

 

Antibiotics however they do or don't work only work to help slow the issue while the body re coups enough to fight off the issue naturally .
This is never going to happen in fish world ! Waste of time and risk to all other fish in tank is what long term treatment adds up to , to me .
I am allergic to some antibiotics .
Never once heard any of you bio trained people ever say a fish could have died from being allergic .It is always they are just bad or fish was too sick ??
I am skeptical to say the least !

 

Horizontal Gene Transfer is an important factor contributing to the rate at which bacterial strains become antibiotic resistant, but it's simply a means of transferring genetic material. It doesn't change the Darwinian nature of the process taking place: in an environment full of antibiotics, bacteria with mutations making them less susceptible to antibiotics have a higher probability of surviving and passing on their genetic material, by whatever means that transfer may occur. The antibiotics aren't making individual bacterium resistant any more than tall trees make a giraffe's neck longer.

I think you might be confused. Environmental/horizontal gene transfer is when certain types of bacteria can literally just pick up genes from their environment. They can also transfer genes to completely different types of bacterium even if that type isn't capable of horizontal gene transfer. Those bacteria can now pass those genes on to their offspring. You are correct in that it affects the rate at which the resistance is built. It affects it at a very alarming rate which is why every single time an antibiotic is used, it's an issue. I get what point you're trying to make, but other organisms don't have the capability to pass around genetic material yet like some types of bacteria can. This is why antibiotics specifically, and not so much an antifungal, are an issue.

 

Antibiotics however they do or don't work only work to help slow the issue while the body re coups enough to fight off the issue naturally .
This is never going to happen in fish world ! Waste of time and risk to all other fish in tank is what long term treatment adds up to , to me .
I am allergic to some antibiotics .
Never once heard any of you bio trained people ever say a fish could have died from being allergic .It is always they are just bad or fish was too sick ??
I am skeptical to say the least !

I would say a fish can have an allergic reaction to something. It has an immune system, so why not? That's just my assumption though.

 

yeah it's pretty much impossible to tell if a fish has an allergic reaction since we just assume it's because their immune system was too weak to handle the stress of the meds
nobody really knows how to autopsy their fish
but like, you guys watched that clip right? do we need to remind ourselves how "not smart" some people are???

 

I think you might be confused. Environmental/horizontal gene transfer is when certain types of bacteria can literally just pick up genes from their environment. They can also transfer genes to completely different types of bacterium even if that type isn't capable of horizontal gene transfer. Those bacteria can now pass those genes on to their offspring. You are correct in that it affects the rate at which the resistance is built. It affects it at a very alarming rate which is why every single time an antibiotic is used, it's an issue. I get what point you're trying to make, but other organisms don't have the capability to pass around genetic material yet like some types of bacteria can. This is why antibiotics specifically, and not so much an antifungal, are an issue.

Antibiotics don't have DNA, sometimes they can be contaminated with the DNA of the organism which produces them, but the antibiotics themselves aren't sharing DNA with bacteria. I'm not denying that HGT is a thing, I'm saying that the process of AMR is Darwinian in nature. The bacteria which are exposed to antibiotics, that have no resistance, die off, leaving behind the bacteria who are resistant and allowing the genetic mutation that creates that resistance to multiply.

 

yeah it's pretty much impossible to tell if a fish has an allergic reaction since we just assume it's because their immune system was too weak to handle the stress of the meds
nobody really knows how to autopsy their fish
but like, you guys watched that clip right? do we need to remind ourselves how "not smart" some people are???

Lower animals don't have as developed immune systems as us so it's unlikely.