Angelfish video... advice please :-)

capekate
  • #1
Hello
Earlier I had posted a topic on my angelfish that started fighting after getting along so well for 7 months. I have a youtube video that I made of the interaction between the two. Are they sizing each other up for potential mates? Or are these two ( the black one being the aggressor) really fighting with each other? I have replanted the tank and changed things around giving them each a space of their own, but still it seems that the smaller black marble wants to challenge the larger silver. does it look as tho its necessary to separate these two now after all this time together?
Thanks for looking...
 
Barbrella
  • #2
Angelfish are usually very peaceful when young, but when they mature they're like all cichlids - territorial and somewhat aggressive.

It looks like the black angel decided the tank is his and if both are males there could be trouble.

Try rearranging the tank, with some tall plants in the middle to visually cut down on the space he has. An "S" shape aquascaping sometimes helps, with the "S" running along the back of the tank.

If one fish is being constantly harassed, chased, is hiding, not eating or has torn fins you may have to separate them.
 
TheEssigs
  • #3
It does look like they are fighting... IMO.

I had a problem recently with my angels too. But it was my black angel who got all beat up. For some reason, after months of peaceful co-exsistance, they just started fighting... maybe as they aged they got more territorial. I had to remove the black angel and relocate him to another tank.

Good luck with your situation.
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #4
HI and thanks for the responses.
I have since re-arranged the tank with more plants and hiding places. It doesn't go on all the time, but enough for me to be concerned with it. There are no signs of any injury on either of them at this point. I imagine that I am going to have to separate these two if it doesn't stop. I would hope that once one has determined who is the big cheese in the tank, that the fighting would stop. I cannot add any other fish to the tank with them there, since any time I have, they both would attack the new fish. So it seems that at some point I will end up with only one angelfish in that 29 gallon tank. Seems like such a waste of space... wish there was another solution to this problem. Maybe I can re introduce only one angel to the discus tank and see how they get along.
thanks for the help and advice...


~ kate
 
Barbrella
  • #5
I used to keep a small school of tetras with my angels. They were too fast to get hurt, and gave the angels something to take out their aggression on besides each other.

Lemon tetras might be a good choice.
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #6
thanks so much! I would love to try some other fish for that tank, and I do like the tetras very much. So I will look into the lemon tetras and see what I can find. ;D I know the cardinal tetras were too small for them and they did attack them. Also attacked the black skirt tetras as well. Are the lemons are larger tetra?
thanks,

~ kate
 
COBettaCouple
  • #7
i'd agree with you, watching the vid, it seemed that the blacker angel wants to rule the tank. if you look at our tanks, in our cichlid tank, we have some rock formations and really tall plants - perhaps you could use those to divide the tank more for them? ???
 
Barbrella
  • #8
Also attacked the black skirt tetras as well

So you've tried tetras. This guy of yours is quite the bully and 29 gals just could be not large enough for the two angels since he's claiming it all.
 
Jimold
  • #9
now I hate to disagree with everyone here, but this might not be just a territory thing going on here. With it's fins all still and straight and posturing like that, it looks a lot like my black female did when she got big enough to find a mate. And she acted the same way. I posted it here somewhere, she killed 2 other angels before the big gold one accepted her, and then I had to run and take the rest of my angels back because the 2 of them started picking off the rest.

I'm curious just how big the black angel is, and do you see anything on it's belly that might look like very tiny a breeding tube by chance
 
Sabi
  • #10
I'm inclined to agree with Jim.
My 3 angels are behaving in the EXACT same manner. I don't know must I take the two I was planning on breeding and put them in their tank or let them finish whatever they are at?
 
Jimold
  • #11
I'm inclined to agree with Jim.
My 3 angels are behaving in the EXACT same manner. I don't know must I take the two I was planning on breeding and put them in their tank or let them finish whatever they are at?

As soon as I was sure my gold one and black one had paired, I took back the rest before they got killed. Angelfish may be peaceful when they're little, but after they mature they seem to remember they're cichlids.

Oh FYI, you'll know for sure when they start lip locking. It's amazing to watch. Mine only did it a few times, so I'm glad I got to see it. It started when they were wrestling with a piece of frozen bloodworms. One second the 2 of them were fighting over the food, the next second the food was gone, and they had clamped onto each other! And what happened next was mostly too fast too see. I thought they were going to kill each other, but I've seen it before with my dempseys, so I know it was normal.
After a couple days of this they stopped, but from that time on they were definitly paired. I don't know exactly how to discribe it, it's not really like they're schooling. But if you watch them, you can just tell they're TOGETHER. You'll know what I mean when it happens.
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #12
HI Jim
thanks for the input, I know that you have had Angels for awhile and I'm really interested in your opinion on this.
I watch the behavior between the two and I have also seen the lip lock going on. I assumed they were fighting when they do that. I have had these two for 7 months and they were not the tiny size when I got them. When you measure the size of them do you measure from tip to bottom fin? Or just the body size? If I was to only measure the body size without fins I would say that the silver is around 2.5 -3 inches in size. The fins make it close to 6 inches. The black is slightly smaller. The silvers behavior is more to ignore the black one and only gets mad at it after the black has been being aggressive for awhile then it goes after it, more in a way I think, like to say, leave me alone! I thought that I noticed the tube on the black at one time. I have no other fish in the tank in the hopes that these two would end up being a pair and spawn.
thanks for your help!

~ kate

So you've tried tetras. This guy of yours is quite the bully and 29 gals just could be not large enough for the two angels since he's claiming it all.

They were long fin black skirt tetras that probably looked too much like small angelfish. That may be why they attacked it.

~ kate
 
Sabi
  • #13
For about how long do they "lip lock"?
 
TSCAD
  • #14
I'm having the same problem! I woke up this morning and I noticed that one of my angels (the oldest) has a fin almost completely ripped off. I have two 80 gal tanks and I keep a breeding pair in one tank. They have produced 4 times. This morning I noticed that the female has an enlarged belly (approximately 3 days from depositing) and the male is attacking her to the point that she is laying on the floor of the tank and jumping out of the water. I immediately moved the male to the other tank and the female was alone. She is obviously stressed because she has entered a cave and won't come out. In my years with angels I have never seen one in a cave. I have had prior experiences with gravid females attacking each other and male vs male, but this is the first time I've seen a breeding pair male attacking the female. After moving the male to the other tank I moved 3 younger angels (offspring) with the female. I moved three because they are too small to determine their sex. I'm watching to see which one, if any, pair up with the female. Once the male was in the other tank he began to clean surfaces, as if preparing for his mate. Very unusual being that he is no longer with her! Any help please!
 
Jimold
  • #15
For about how long do they "lip lock"?

Mine would go at it for about 5 - 10 minutes, then calm back down. This went on for about 2 weeks. I haven't seen them do it sense, but they're definitly paired...

THEY LAID EGGS AGAIN TODAY!!! lol

I'm having the same problem! I woke up this morning and I noticed that one of my angels (the oldest) has a fin almost completely ripped off. I have two 80 gal tanks and I keep a breeding pair in one tank. They have produced 4 times. This morning I noticed that the female has an enlarged belly (approximately 3 days from depositing) and the male is attacking her to the point that she is laying on the floor of the tank and jumping out of the water. I immediately moved the male to the other tank and the female was alone. She is obviously stressed because she has entered a cave and won't come out. In my years with angels I have never seen one in a cave. I have had prior experiences with gravid females attacking each other and male vs male, but this is the first time I've seen a breeding pair male attacking the female. After moving the male to the other tank I moved 3 younger angels (offspring) with the female. I moved three because they are too small to determine their sex. I'm watching to see which one, if any, pair up with the female. Once the male was in the other tank he began to clean surfaces, as if preparing for his mate. Very unusual being that he is no longer with her! Any help please!

wow, I'm not sure what you should do, except what you already did: remove the male. Of my 2, the female is definitly the more aggressive and protective. My advice to you I guess would be leave the female alone, maybe as far as staying out of the room all together (angels are very aware of things moving around outside the tank). Hopefully she'll calm down and come out of the cave.
 
Sabi
  • #16
Mine would go at it for about 5 - 10 minutes, then calm back down. This went on for about 2 weeks. I haven't seen them do it sense, but they're definitly paired...

THEY LAID EGGS AGAIN TODAY!!! lol
Congrats! Cant wait till mine can get!!
5-10min? Well i've seen them for about 3-4 seconds not more so I guess they aren't lip locking....yet?
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #17
Well i've seen them for about 3-4 seconds not more so I guess they aren't lip locking....yet?

LOL Sabi, that's about as long my angels would lip lock too.
Good luck with your Angels.. ;D

~ kate
 
TSCAD
  • #18
Jim-
I know it's only been about 4 hours, but I've re-arranged things again. When I placed the 3 young angels with the female she came out of the cave and I noticed that her pupilla had dropped. She was chasing the 3 youngin's all over the tank while only using her one fin. I decided to move the male back into her tank and the 3 youngin's back to their original tank. The three are happy to be back into their tank and the breeding pair are now conjointly preparing a depositing surface. I guess it was just a "domestic disturbance". The guy got arrested and then released. I've never seen a breding pair act in this manner. Thanks for your advice.
 
Jimold
  • #19
Jim-
I know it's only been about 4 hours, but I've re-arranged things again. When I placed the 3 young angels with the female she came out of the cave and I noticed that her pupilla had dropped. She was chasing the 3 youngin's all over the tank while only using her one fin. I decided to move the male back into her tank and the 3 youngin's back to their original tank. The three are happy to be back into their tank and the breeding pair are now conjointly preparing a depositing surface. I guess it was just a "domestic disturbance". The guy got arrested and then released. I've never seen a breding pair act in this manner. Thanks for your advice.

hmmm, that's a little weird, but not totally unprecedented with Cichlids in general. I've heard where Jack Dempseys (Angels very aggressive cousin) may start laying & one gets the jitters or does something wrong or freaks over something and starts eating eggs, and the other turns on it and kill it outright.
It could be you angels timing was off a bit, and the male didn't know how exactly to handle it.
I have a question: How many times have they laid eggs? The reason I ask is I've heard angels commonly don't get right the first couple times.

Congrats! Cant wait till mine can get!!
5-10min? Well i've seen them for about 3-4 seconds not more so I guess they aren't lip locking....yet?

The duration doesn't matter... if it was a true lip lock then it's possible they're in the process if sizing each other up, so to speak. If each approves of the other you have a pair.
 
Sabi
  • #20
The duration doesn't matter... if it was a true lip lock then it's possible they're in the process if sizing each other up, so to speak. If each approves of the other you have a pair.
Yeah I guess so. Its more odd because there are 3 of them at it.
 
Jimold
  • #21
Yeah I guess so. Its more odd because there are 3 of them at it.

That's not necessarily that odd. Either you have 1 female and 2 males, or vice versa, and they're competing. That's what I meant by each approving of the other. In your case, my guess would be 1 is choosing between the other 2. Just keep a close eye on them, if this goes all the way, so to speak, the loser is likely to get turned on by the new pair. If so, get it out of there. I know it's kinda sad, but I had to do the same thing. My tank now belongs to just my pair (and the assorted bottom cleaning squad) But they're both so big and beautiful together any more would be too many.
 
Barbrella
  • #22
I have no other fish in the tank in the hopes that these two would end up being a pair and spawn.

They could very well be m/f, but that doesn't mean they're a pair.

Angelfish don't like arranged unions or fixups. They need to pick their own mates which is why most people, including me, start out with 5 or so babies, then when they mature and choose a mate, find other accomodations for the others.

I had a true pair and one of them ending up accidentally being removed (long story..). My female would accept no other mate. I had to go and get her original mate back, and their reunion was quite remarkable, with instant recognition.
 
TSCAD
  • #23
hmmm, that's a little weird, but not totally unprecedented with Cichlids in general. I've heard where Jack Dempseys (Angels very aggressive cousin) may start laying & one gets the jitters or does something wrong or freaks over something and starts eating eggs, and the other turns on it and kill it outright.
It could be you angels timing was off a bit, and the male didn't know how exactly to handle it.
I have a question: How many times have they laid eggs? The reason I ask is I've heard angels commonly don't get right the first couple times.

This pair has successfully deposited/fertilized approximately 4 times. You can actually see pictures of them doing so in my gallery. They do sometimes eat the eggs, most of the time it's because of other fish in the tank. Sometimes they feel that the other fish will eat their eggs, so they beat them to the punch. I never take the spawning couple from the tank (as some recommend), however if there are other angels I do move them because of the gravid female. You are correct about not getting it right the first couple times. Most of the youngsters that start of breeding (from my experience) don't know what to do, or eat the eggs. From my experience it's normally the male that can't figure it out. Just a side note: I even keep turtles in the tank with the spawning couple. They get along really well. If I put a new fish in the tank the turtles get mad and try to bite it, but all of the current fish & turtles are friends. My angels actually kick it with the turtles inside their floating log. Thanks again for your replies.
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #24
HI Barbrella
I originally bought the two Angel fish for the community tank. I had no thoughts of them breeding at the time. Just wanted two Angel fish. As time went by and they were a bit aggressive to the other fish, I had to give them their own 29 gallon tank. If they end up a pair... or spawn.. that would only be a bonus, if they don't that's ok too. I will let nature take its course and see what happens.


~ kate
 
Jimold
  • #25
HI Barbrella
I originally bought the two Angel fish for the community tank. I had no thoughts of them breeding at the time. Just wanted two Angel fish. As time went by and they were a bit aggressive to the other fish, I had to give them their own 29 gallon tank. If they end up a pair... or spawn.. that would only be a bonus, if they don't that's ok too. I will let nature take its course and see what happens.


~ kate

I hope they pair, you won't be disappointed. They take on a whole new personality. For the most part still the same peaceful angels, but when they lay eggs they become excellent, protective parents. And it's a beautiful thing to see, a little cloud of fry swimming around the parents. I definitly recommend the experience.
 
Sabi
  • #26
That's not necessarily that odd. Either you have 1 female and 2 males, or vice versa, and they're competing. That's what I meant by each approving of the other. In your case, my guess would be 1 is choosing between the other 2. Just keep a close eye on them, if this goes all the way, so to speak, the loser is likely to get turned on by the new pair. If so, get it out of there. I know it's kinda sad, but I had to do the same thing. My tank now belongs to just my pair (and the assorted bottom cleaning squad) But they're both so big and beautiful together any more would be too many.
I want to take the pair out (when they pair)as I have a tank ready for them to breed in...?
 
Isabella
  • #27
I didn't read this entire thread, so just to comment on your video, well it does appear to me like they're fighting :-\. Any changes in their behavior now Kate? The black one does seem pretty territorial! BTW, beautiful fish
 
capekate
  • Thread Starter
  • #28
HI Isabella
They are still picking on each other but there is no signs of injury to either. No nipped fins etc etc. I have a divider handy and will use it if I need too.
They are not constantly fighting and since the silver is much larger than the marble, it can take care of itself when it is pushed too far by the marble. I let them go at it, in the hopes that the marble will learn to leave the larger Angel alone. The silver is not a aggressive fish and will ignore the marble to a point. Then it just says enough is enough and goes at it. I'm hoping the marble will learn its lesson and leave it alone. If it doesn't stop soon I will be putting in the divider when I clean their tank next.

~ kate
 
Shawnie
  • #29
 
bolivianbaby
  • #30
They are beautiful, Shawnie! How old are your corys? They're huge! We only have one that is close to the size of yours and we were told he's 2 years old.
 
Lucy
  • #31
Shawnie, your angels are gorgeous. Of course so are the rest of your fish.
Which tank is this? (gallons)
 
Shawnie
  • #32
They are beautiful, Shawnie! How old are your corys? They're huge! We only have one that is close to the size of yours and we were told he's 2 years old.
ty boliv!! they are almost 2 although my sterbaI is a little over a year..and yes they are beasts for cories no I don't spoil them

Shawnie, your angels are gorgeous. Of course so are the rest of your fish.
Which tank is this? (gallons)
ty lucy!!! this is my 30 gal
 
Tony G.
  • #33
yay shawnie!! it even has my name on it
your pair is beautiful
lol am I really that demanding??
lol
 
AmongthePuffers
  • #34
yay shawnie!! it even has my name on it
your pair is beautiful
lol am I really that demanding??
lol

lol.
Beautiful tank shawnie, those corys are huge though!
What kind of angels are those?
 
Shawnie
  • #35
yay shawnie!! it even has my name on it
your pair is beautiful
lol am I really that demanding??
lol
well ya you are!!!!
lol.
Beautiful tank shawnie, those corys are huge though!
What kind of angels are those?
I agree those cories are piglets!
blushing koi are the angels
 
SWilkins
  • #36
yes they are beasts for cories no I don't spoil them

I thought mods could not tell fibs. Those guys/gals are enormous Love the tank and the fish!!!
 
Shawnie
  • #37
yes they are beasts for cories no I don't spoil them

I thought mods could not tell fibs. Those guys/gals are enormous Love the tank and the fish!!!

sher! that's why I'm always saying "cories aren't small creatures and can get huge!" arty0009:
 
MissMTS
  • #38
Your angels are gorgeous Shawnie Thanks for posting the video! I miss my angels and can't wait until I can get more one of these days. Is this your breeding pair? I love the cories, they are adorable! Mine are such little piggies, lol.
 
Shawnie
  • #39
Your angels are gorgeous Shawnie Thanks for posting the video! I miss my angels and can't wait until I can get more one of these days. Is this your breeding pair? I love the cories, they are adorable! Mine are such little piggies, lol.

ty kate!!! this is one of my breeding pair that always give me fry

these are my other ones that seem to snack on them every week when they spawn!

 
bolivianbaby
  • #40
Great vid, Shawnie! Near the end, it was like he was giving you "the eye"

The angels wouldn't eat their fry if you didn't have a million JD and con fry

I'll be thinking really hard this week on whether or not I want the cons to breed. If I do, I'll just add "your" water to the tank
 

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