Angelfish swimming vertically

I'd keep up with the epsom salt dips, it won't hurt, and if anything helps keep the digestive tract clear, less pressure on a potential swim bladder or other internal injury.

 

Please just don't do what one girl did on here. She did 5 antibiotics and the poor angel looked horrible. I told her most like after the 2nd or even 3rd it was not bacterial. Try a different class to treat. You're torturing it. Two meds Max for each type. That's why it's good to plan. It was protozoan I think. It was losing its skin.

 

Please just don't do what one girl did on here. She did 5 antibiotics and the poor angel looked horrible. I told her most like after the 2nd or even 3rd it was not bacterial. Try a different class to treat. You're torturing it. Two meds Max for each type. That's why it's good to plan. It was protozoan I think. It was losing its skin.

that is exactly what I am trying to avoid!! I don't want to get all crazy with this med and that med....I am a big fan of just doing daily water changes to heal a fish. It has worked for me in the past...but maybe because I haven't dealt with true illnesses with my fish before. I also haven't dealt with such a bad injury (if this is an injury)

Anyway, so today's update....I mentioned yesterday that he is starting to have trouble keeping his food down which makes me nervous. He hasn't declined in any other way.

He is now starting to behave like a betta....in that he is trying to rest in the plants and not have to use energy to swim and stay balanced. Again, that leads me to believe it is an injury that is just making his life difficult.

Again, I just feel like he should be dead by now!! I am continuing with daily water changes on the tank and a he has had 2 salt baths per day for the last two days.

I do have metroplex and frozen brine shrimp on hand. So the next thing I will try is what Tolak said about sprinkling that metro on the food and give that a try. (since I have the stuff I need anyway) If that doesn't work....then I don't know. Because as you just said...I don't want to try a million different medicines!!

 

Maybe he's resting to conserve energy is he can't eat as much as he'd like to?

 

Maybe he's resting to conserve energy is he can't eat as much as he'd like to?

That's kind of what I was thinking too!
This morning was the first time I saw him doing that. And right now I am heading home for lunch, so I am curious to see if he is still "resting" or not.....

 

What seems really odd to me is his stomach isn't as distended typically seen in dropsy (bacterial) and his swimming is more odd than him being unable to swim (like he is sick rather than his swim bladder is messed up), which leads me to think it is more parasitic (flukes or nematodes) or a more systemic infection like fish TB. It may be he is just constipated, but that doesn't explain his swimming behaviors which suggest something more severe.

The symptoms to me either match fish TB (low-moderate), intestinal flukes (moderate), or nematodes (fairly strongly)- based on number of symptoms [sickly behavior and distended stomach, but no other symptoms]. The particular nematode common in angelfish is called : Capillaria (source at the bottom).

If he presents with other symptoms typical of bacterial infection, like comorbid bacterial conditions (which suggests it is bacterial in nature-pop eye or etc...) or loss of scales, wasting, breathing difficulties, curved spine or lesions, then I would change my thoughts. The reason I say parasitic is because he has little symptoms and the only he has to me best suggest a parasite or stress, congenital or water parameter based.

Protozoan parasites (eukaryotes not bacteria!) might be the cause too and could cause specific organ problems. This is another likely cause.

If protozoan this is the most likely culprit only based on symptoms ALONE are:Microsporidia from that source and unfortunately there are no treatment,

OR Cryptobia


Ask IFAS - Powered by EDIS

also, I will be very interested to see how the fry are doing, because his determination will be greatly helped by that. Unfortunately, it is not a GREAT indicator, but a moderate one, because he is not the female. If they do well and are not skinner than normal, or are not growing more slowly then you have some evidence against parasitic infections.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/...uarium_fishes/parasitic_diseases_of_fish.html

Oh and I want to specify that I am not talking about gill flukes, I am talking about the intestinal flukes, they aren't as common- but tapeworms are and that is another possible cause. Either way most of the treatments are very similar for the parasitic worms, but many produce a stomach like that and in later stages or juveniles, quick death, wasting, eating less and stuff.

I treated my loaches for tapeworm and flukes (prazipro), followed by a roundworm and general anti-parasitic which for also protozoans (flubendazdole). I have only lost a guppy since, and nothing else- whereas I was slowly losing all of my juveniles, and I lost 2-3 early adults (1 was an angelfish). The reason I am so adamant is because my loaches were swimming like that too in the beginning, they eventually got really skinny but had still big stomachs

 

The poor guy....just trying to rest ...

Edit.. I just noticed that redness by his Gill. That's not seeable when he's moving. And it's not seeable in most photos. It must be under his Gill... it seems a little redder than it should be

 

Hiding is an indicator of internal protizoans, pretty common for them to show up after having the snot beat out of him in a breeding situation. If he even mouths the dosed food & spits it out it'll be starting to get the medication where it needs to be. I've got a source of fish size pipettes for forced medication if need be, sounds harder than it really is. This works more quickly than dosing the water, which is fine for slow to eat, not so good for refusing to eat or even mouth the food.

While the info uncclewis is good to have for reference, anything of that nature would manifest in fry. I had a situation years back with green aeneus, good spawn & hatchout from the parents, after about 3 days swimming they were surfing the sides, heading for the surface, then after a bit hitting the bottom & dying. Pretty certain it was a respiratory issue, so I contacted a buddy who has been breeding corys for decades. He said oodium (velvet), the parents have no issue with it, so you won't see it on them. You won't see it on the fry, as it's hitting the gills first, much like ick. A half dose of copper sulfate pentahydrate was suggested, in 3 days, issue gone.

These are the sort of things you learn from experience, 30 tank cory guy helping out the 30 tank angel guy who's dabbling with corys. Due to this experience it's something I've incorporated into my angel breeding; half dose of copper once the angels are swimming.

With breeding, especially in a production situation things are done a bit differently at times. Angel fry can be touchy, anything as virulent as flukes would decimate angel fry. Often bacteria that the adults live perfectly fine with will wipe out spawns, in many cases cleaning up the pair with a dose of potassium permanginate will eliminate bacterial issues.

 

Tolak I really wish I would have tried the medicated food sooner. He's definitely refusing to eat now. I put him in a 10 gallon to try and feed him because he's still living in the 46 gallon with a few other fish. I dosed the food with the same dose a 10-gallon would use.... so even if he doesn't eat it... does that mean his water is dosed with it sufficiently? Is 10 gallons even an ok sized Hospital tank for this big guy? Because it's the only thing I've got empty...

 

Wow your angel is getting to look like my loaches WERE!. Most of my loaches had gills like that. I am uncertain which type of worm (like gill flukes) that came out of one following treatment or protozoan was also causing the wasting or in others-but my general one that treated both worked. I showed you the photo of one that had worms coming out of him following treatment. If that doesn't work, then you might use prazipro next because it will kill what some parasites that metronidazole or fenbendazole will not and is extremely safe- you just dump into water (people take it for its purpose).

 

Wow your angel is getting to look like my loaches. Most of my loaches had gills like that. I am uncertain which type of worm (like gill flukes) that came out of one following treatment or protozoan was also causing the wasting or in others-but my general one that treated both worked. I showed you the photo of one that had worms coming out of him following treatment. If that doesn't work, then you might use prazipro next because it will kill what some parasites that metronidazole or fenbendazole will not and is extremely safe- you just dump into water (people take it for its purpose).

Turns out its not his gill. I looked at him when I got home and its actually his fin..where is connects to his body...on both sides...his gills are normal.

Why do you suppose it has turned red at the fin "joint"?

 

Umm, that is still considered the "gill" as far as diseases usually. That is my understanding. You just can't see deep into his gills. My loaches are practically transparent (well to a point) so I can see there

My background was heavy in biology and I dissected fish before and had to name the anatomy so I have a headstart. But I am still always learning.

 

Umm, that is still considered the "gill" as far as diseases usually. That is my understanding. You just can't see deep into his gills. My loaches are practically transparent (well to a point) so I can see there

So you're saying the red at the base of the fin is part of the gill above it?

 

A 10 is fine for a med quar tank, I've got a drilled one in my setup, along with a 15h, same footprint, taller tank, for just these reasons. Check your inbox, I've got a guy that can ship pipettes for medication, it's not as difficult as it sounds. He's a pal in Colorado, it's on me, my food & fish sales cover more than a bag of groceries or a pizza, I am a real strong believer in giving back to the hobby, as in the past others have done for me. The aquatic community works out really well with this mindset.

With all due respect uncclewis, angels are not loachs. Loachs do have quite a few specific protocols when it comes to meds, being a scaleless, or nearly so species. I've spent decades concentrating on angels, and while some protocols do work well with other species, others not so much. My previously mentioned copper treatment as a preventive with angels would most likely affect loach fry in a very adverse manner. Loachs Online is one of my go to sites for checking med sensitivity, as if it affects loaches in an adverse manner caution is to be taken with fry of any species. I've been concentrating on angels, as well as some of the apisto species, for many years now. Much of works well with angels translates to smaller, as well as some of the larger cichlids, while there are certain things that are very much species specific.

Much of what works well with loachs translates well to corys & plecs, once again, you will have situations that are species specific. While I do personally appreciate your input, and have no problem whatsoever reading through some of the very well written & researched material you've presented as far as it applies to loachs (as well as many other species!) it really doesn't apply as a whole to angels, and my concern is that it may be a bit confusing for bizaliz3, who is trying hard to concentrate on a specific species & fish. By all means feel free to keep posting things you may see as pertinent, I for one appreciate it, and perhaps there may be a connect, but as someone who has been in a situation with a fish I value personally, as well as a part of an ongoing breeding program, tunnel vision may set in on the part of the OP, so don't be discouraged if she doesn't seem receptive to the info you've provided!

 

Some redness is normal. There is healthy looking redness and not. Unfortunately mine were all dead and formaldehyded at dissection. But I'm treating mine and this is considered slightly too red but close to normal. It's my least red one.

It will be somewhat red. It's the degree. He is in between breaths here. Also his eye isn't that big. It's just my angle

Also. I would** Really get a TDS meter Bc fishes gills have to do the work to compensate If it's far off and they are cheap.

My treatment regimen is taking like a total of a month, but they are all getting better! Even some I didn't know were messed up!

The only one who seems a bit sick is my loach who keeps eating the plastic in the tank. I fed him. But it has algae on it so he may think it is a wafer and swallows some of the plastic too. I looked up online this happens in the wild. so I took it out.

 

Often with a more lightly colored angel, gold, plat, or even a koi that expresses more white some reddening with be more apparent if they are stressed. This can often be misinterpreted as septicemia or another bacterial issue, when in fact this change in coloration can be quite normal, and is to be expected in a stressed angel of a lighter phenotype. This is the sort of species specific thing I mentioned, flipped me out many years back, until a seasoned breeder told me so what, you'd be red in the face too if some crazy female was chasing you around running you ragged.

I use a TDS meter exclusively, don't do any liquid tests unless something is really out of wack. The meter is quick & easy for a busy multI tank setup, with breeding you're generally stocking heavier, feeding heavier, and really do need to know what is dissolved in that water. It gives you a quick reference that with experience in your own setup, can equal an estimate for nitrate, as well as hardness.

 

you'd be red in the face too if some crazy female was chasing you around running you ragged.

HAHAHAHAHA love the analogy!

 

These old timers mince no words, some of which no doubt would be filtered or earn me a nice PM from the mod team here!

 

There is the loach who Now looks like he has internal bleeding from the worm leaving his body still and red gills still Ofc from recovering. But I wanted to show you how much more informative their bodies are... The second photo are of the ones that are NOW!! healthy OR tremendously better and coming to see me while I take a photo. Oh and I promise it's not food. They are STUFFED lol. It's being social. We are slowly getting tight, lol. With angels it's much more difficult. But they provide insight into their looks sometimes it seems.

Awe looks like the poor guy can't catch a break, now another worm is leaving his body. They die as soon as shoveling their way out... They are trying to escape the dewormer and dying. It died halfway through leaving and it is stuck halfway out.

The severity of disease in fish will vary with the life stage, species, and number of nematodes present; the age and species of infected fish; and the sites of infection. Even though adult nematodes are typically found in fish intestinal tracts, adult and other life stages can be found in almost any organ, as stated earlier, but they are, secondarily, most commonly present in muscle, the liver, and tissues surrounding the internal organs. Visible signs of infection may include hemorrhaging, external lumps or nodules, inflammation, and necrosis (presence of dead and dying tissue) and cysts or granulomas. A granuloma is a reaction by immune cells in which the cells try to "wall off" some foreign body--in this case, the worm. Granulomas formed around worms can look like little brown "rock-like" areas in the shape of the worm, but they will be surrounded by a distinct clear area at their very edge. Adult nematodes in the intestinal tract damage its lining and rob the fish of nutrients, causing a "wasting" effect.
During their development, many species of nematodes migrate within the body of a fish causing "worm tracks" (evidence of nematode movement through a fish's body), which are seen as "tunnels" in the tissue. Inflammation around these "worm tracks" may also be present. Extensive migration by large numbers of nematodes may cause significant physical damage to a fish. Large larval stages of some nematode species, including Eustrongylides species, may cause physical pressure on organs and abdominal distension.
Juvenile fish with nematode infections are often more severely affected than adults, displaying reduced growth, wasting, or more obvious disease signs and mortality. However, adult fish with significant parasite loads also exhibit wasting and reduced reproductive capacity.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa091

 

I set up a hospital tank finally. Here's Dad today in his Hospital tank... his bulging belly is going down but I'm sure that's cuz he's not eating....

I'm treating the hospital tank with Metro at the moment... and I'm cranking up the temperature.

 

Best of luck x

 

His gills don't seem as red. But I'm noticing some potential issues, but let's start one at a time. 1) it appears like he might have an anchor worm dangling from one fin or is it a pic artifact?

 

His gills don't seem as red. But I'm noticing some potential issues, but let's start one at a time. 1) it appears like he might have an anchor worm dangling from one fin or is it a pic artifact?

What fin are you referring to? I am not sure what you are looking at.

 

In his caudal fin, back one. Toward the bottom protruding outward. They are small if that's it. And also potentially one in the center. Let me edit a photo of it on another fish in a second. they aren't always so big or prominent.

 

In his caudal fin, back one. Toward the bottom protruding outward. They are small if that's it. And also potentially one in the center. Let me edit a photo of it on another fish in a second

No, that is just part of his fin. His tail fin has gotten a little ragged after fighting with his wife. his tail fin used to have that nice "U" shape and the "protrusion" you are seeing used to be on the top as well. He had points at the top and bottom of his tail fin. And there are tears at the tip of his tail fin all along it. That is damage to his fin.

 

see the thing at the bottom?

 

View attachment 195009 see the thing at the bottom?

yes and that is part of his fin. He has always had the top tip and bottom tip of his tail stick out very far. The top was damaged, the other is still hanging on by a thread. That is NOT a worm. I will post an old picture of him so you can see....

 

I know how you feel, I got hit hard with loosing some Angels recently. I hope he continues to recovers as it looks promising. Sending good vibes your way.

 

Here he is with his wife when they first paired up last November. Okay it's not as "u" shaped as I remember but as you can see his fin has always been that way. The top of his tail was already shortened back in Nov. I've had him since it was a baby and once upon a time it stuck out like that on top too....mom his a veil tail...so hers stick out really far



edit.... interestingly he was plump back then too! He's always been fat...

I know how you feel, I got hit hard with loosing some Angels recently. I hope he continues to recovers as it looks promising. Sending good vibes your way.

Thanks @ I appreciate the good vibes! And so does my angel.

He is very special to me and has given me some beautiful babies and I have had HIM since he was a baby. I am not ready to say goodbye!

 

Ok... Well they are actually insects, so if it
was, treatment is different From any we've talked about. Some of mine have that too. But the thing in the middle too, threw me off. I see. Ok. No worries then. Mine had worms and or protozoans and suprinsgly even since treatment they are eating more than usual and so they ate until they are gigantic. Now are really fat.

It caught me off guard when I was feeding. By their verocity for food.

2) I was going to say keep an eye on how much he likes to eat and if he spits it out a lot. And the fry!!!: )

3) good luck.

 

Ok... Well they are actually insects, so if it
was, treatment is different From any we've talked about. Some of mine have that too. But the thing in the middle too, threw me off. I see. Ok. No worries then. Mine had worms and or protozoans and suprinsgly even since treatment they are eating more than usual and so they ate until they are gigantic. Now are really fat.

It caught me off guard when I was feeding. By their verocity for food.

Sorry for getting a bit defensive! I hope it didn't come across rude. I just was caught off guard by your response to the current picture of him. Especially since I know what his tail has always looked like. And the spot you zoomed in on in the middle is definitely just from the fraying that is going on with his tail.

I actually thought he was looking up.....then you started bringing up anchor worms...so for some reason I got defensive! LOL

Again, I do appreciate your concern for my fish!!

 

No problem. I'm concerned for him too. It does appear with your care, that he can get fully better. Glad we worked it out. That's why I was trying to ask you about it first.

 

RIP

 

Oh, how awful! I'm so so sorry.

 

NO! Oh no. I'm so so sorry:'(

 

Awe. I'm so sorry!. hugs. Please keep us informed on the health of your other fish.

 

Oh Bizaliz3 I am so sorry you lost him. You certainly tried your best..Alison

 

Oh no! I was really pulling for you both. So sorry hun.

 

I am so so sorry! Makes my eyes sting a little. I know how you feel. You did all you could.

 

I'm so sorry you lost him, you did the best you could for him