Angelfish swimming vertically

One more would only make it 15. Just saying. Alison

 

One more would only make it 15. Just saying. Alison

Well I think the dollar per gallon sale is still going on at Petco LOL

 

Run quick before it ends. Alison

 

Here is dad right now after his salt dip....

 

I agree that he still doesn't quite look "right", but he does look better than he did in your previous video, imo. I sure am hoping he pulls through.

 

He looks a lot better than he did. I still have my fingers crossed. Alison

 

Run quick before it ends. Alison

Just got home with two 20 gallons

 

how is he doing?

 

how is he doing?

Well there's been no improvement at all unfortunately. I'm doing the best I can to keep him comfortable by giving him a water change every day. Everytime I think he's starting to look better then he starts to go downhill again. Up and down up and down it's been a roller-coaster.

Thanks for asking I'm losing my hope though!

 

Do you think you might go ahead and try an antibiotic now like Tolak suggested?

 

Do you think you might go ahead and try an antibiotic now like Tolak suggested?

That whole idea just scares me because that means every fish he's been in contact with is at risk :-( I really hope it's nothing like that! But I do plan to look into it as the next step.

 

I completely understand. I would be nervous too.

Whatever you decide to do will be the right choice. Hang in there.

 

My loach was doing this, then eventually he couldn't swim at all. I'm going for parasites due to this belly. That's what mine was, nematodes. RIP poor loach. Alternately, it could have been compounded by this. Do you have a TDS meter?

My angelfish only have bellies like that just after eating. However they are 1/3 through treatments

Many fish have it and are kinda ok. Jusst sometimes it takes over. Let me know how it goes!

 

I just went googling across the internet and read a fish vet's comment that a ruptured swim bladder can take 3-4 weeks to heal but that even if it does the fish may never swim normally. I don't know that what your guy has is a ruptured swim bladder but I suppose it's a possibility. Hope he recovers!

 

Yeah nematodes can venture into the swim bladder and rupture it. But there are other causes. In my case this was the issue and because he is fat that is what I was going for with yours. Is he always so fat? Have you ever treated for worms? What does his poop look like? Being so fat it generally shouldn't look stringy and or clear because he should have plenty of excess to discard.

 

Yeah nematodes can venture into the swim bladder and rupture it. But there are other causes. In my case this was the issue and because he is fat that is what I was going for with yours. Is he always so fat? Have you ever treated for worms? What does his poop look like? Being so fat it generally shouldn't look stringy and or clear because he should have plenty of excess to discard.

Honestly...he has been fat for quite some time now. I always just kind of assumed he was full of sperm all the time from breeding. LOL I know I know. That's silly.

I didn't think much of it because he is/was a very healthy fish. (and his poop is normal) It was not until he and his gal started fighting all the time and I removed him that this started happening. His fatness has been around for months and months. So....did it just take that long to affect him? Is it a coincidence that this didn't happen until he started getting beat up by his wife and I moved him?

Its just strange. I feel like he should be dead by now if this was something other than an injury.

I just went googling across the internet and read a fish vet's comment that a ruptured swim bladder can take 3-4 weeks to heal but that even if it does the fish may never swim normally. I don't know that what your guy has is a ruptured swim bladder but I suppose it's a possibility. Hope he recovers!

Did they say what the best way to handle a ruptured swim bladder? Would we just have to wait it out? Or are there things I could do to speed up the process? or at least make him more comfortable while he heals (assuming this were to be the problem)

The "good" news is he is still not declining. He is just kind of stuck where he is at. It makes me so sad when he gets excited and then quickly realizes he can't physically act excited...

 

Feed ur fish some skinned peas. Sorry if u already know that

 

No, it's not peas, there are some actual medications that apparently may help with healing. I'll have to go turn on my computer. That's where I was looking things up and links were saved there.

 

yeah if it is constipation. Nematode infection in fish is quite common... Especially in salt water. It is hard to find a fish without some type of parasitic infection. Here is a freshwater catfish parasitic infection prevalence rates. Results indicated that 18.96% of the examined catfish were infected with digenean trematodes including Orientocreadium siluri(27%), Crowcrocoecum skrjabini (39%), and cestode Bothriocephalus gowkongensis (34%). All the parasites were found in the intestine. Mid-gut followed by foregut appeared to be the most commonly infected parts of the alimentary tract of hosts. The results showed that there was a significant correlation between infection rate, catfish body size, and weight (P < 0.05).

Here is another one.
A total of 1520 ornamental fish of 13 species from 26 export farms in SrI Lanka were collected between October 1999 and March 2000 and examined for parasites. Fish species examined were guppy Poecilia reticulata, goldfish Carassius auratus, platy Xiphophorus maculatus, molly Poecilia sphenops, angel Pterophyllum scalare, swordtail Xiphophorus helleri, tetras Hyphessobrycon species, barbs Capeota and Puntius spp., gourami Colisa sp., carp Cyprinus carpio, fighters Betta spelendens and others (Brachydanio and Astronotus spp.). Nine species of monogenean trematodes (Dactylogyrus extensus, Dactylogyrus cf. extensus, D. vastator, Dactylogyrus cf. vastator Dactylogyrus spp., Gyrodactylus turnbulli, G. katherineri, Gyrodactylus cf. katherineri, Gyrodactylus spp.), 7 protozoan species (Trichodina nigra, Trichodina spp., Tetrahymena corlissi, T. pyriformis, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, Ichthyobodo necator, Piscinoodinium spp.), 3 species of copepod arthropods (Lernaea cyprinacea, Ergasilus ceylonensis, Argulus foliaceus), 1 metacercarial stage of a digenean trematode (Centrocestus spp.) and 1 nematode (Capillaria spp.) were identified. Parasites were found in fish from 23 of the 26 farms with an overall prevalence of parasitism in 45.3% of fish. The variation in farm prevalence among different parasites was significant (p < 0.01). Fish infection rates with monogenean trematodes, protozoans, copepod crustaceans, digenean trematodes and nematodes were 28.3, 18.4, 4.8, 0.8 and 0.4%, respectively. In all, 50 out of 590 (50/590) guppies were infected with Tetrahymena, compared with 13/930 for all other species, which is a statistically significant result (p < 0.01). Similarly, 13/44 and 18/44 carp were infected with Argulus foliaceus and Lernaea cyprinacea, compared with 7/1476 and 15/1476, respectively, for all other species combined (p < 0.01). Capillaria spp. was found only in guppies (4/590) and angelfish (3/92) while Centrocestus spp. was found in goldfish (12/153) only.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12747641

I am going with a nematode or flukes (e.g. roundworm infection cause), as this was also my fish problems and he is acting as yours was. Also, you might check the TDS of your fish tanks to make sure that they are within spec. TDS changes can cause osmolarity changes within the fish (e.g. taking in more water), which when compounded with something like a nematode infection might affect the swim bladder more strongly-due to a change in weight.

Nematodes primarily inhabit gastrointestinal areas, but when the fish has a lot- the nematodes might venture out into the entire body cavity.

Also there are such things as tissue flukes that are primarily found in tissues (e.g. swim bladder). It is possible that infections are co-occuring; nematode and fluke. But flukes I think are more common than nematodes...

Also, this is very gross- but true from wikipedia. These are flukes (trematodes) Human infections are most common in Asia, Africa, Latin and South America and the Middle East. However, trematodes can be found anywhere where untreated human waste is used as fertilizer. Schistosomiasis (also known as bilharzia, bilharziosis or snail fever) is an example of a parasitic disease caused by one of the species of trematodes (platyhelminth infection, or "flukes"), a parasitic worm of the genus Schistosoma. Clonorchis, Opisthorchis, Fasciola and Paragonimus species, the foodborne trematodes, are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trematoda

Despite this great complexity, helminths usually cause asymptomatic or subclinical chronic infection, although some parasitized individuals can suffer from severe disease which may be fatal. Indeed, worms tend to be aggregated in their distribution, with a large number of hosts harboring few parasites and few heavily infected hosts [1, 2]. This remarkable equilibrium between most hosts and parasites is the product of long-term coevolution of the two partners and particularly of the immune defence of the host and the immune evasion of the parasite. The immune responses of the hosts to helminth infection are generally characterized by a skewed Th2-like response. Helminths have developed several means of escaping these immune responses. Recently, Maizels et al. [3] called them “masters of immunomodulation”. These immunomodulatory abilities enable the worm to persist in the host and can lead to interactions with inflammatory and immune mechanisms involved in other infections or to vaccines or in allergic and autoimmune diseases. The focus in this review is on pathogenic helminths of veterinary importance, especially in Ruminants medicine, and includes Fasciola spp. and gastrointestinal nematodes.https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2010/428593/




What can happen is that stressors can change the balance of parasitic infection in fish... TDS is one vector for that. The reason I mentioned it was because I assumed your water chemistry in the tanks is otherwise very close and it may be an overlooked variable on your part.

 

yeah if it is constipation. Nematode infection in fish is quite common... Especially in salt water. It is hard to find a fish without some type of parasitic infection. Here is a freshwater catfish parasitic infection prevalence rates. Results indicated that 18.96% of the examined catfish were infected with digenean trematodes including Orientocreadium siluri(27%), Crowcrocoecum skrjabini (39%), and cestode Bothriocephalus gowkongensis (34%). All the parasites were found in the intestine. Mid-gut followed by foregut appeared to be the most commonly infected parts of the alimentary tract of hosts. The results showed that there was a significant correlation between infection rate, catfish body size, and weight (P < 0.05).

Here is another one.
A total of 1520 ornamental fish of 13 species from 26 export farms in SrI Lanka were collected between October 1999 and March 2000 and examined for parasites. Fish species examined were guppy Poecilia reticulata, goldfish Carassius auratus, platy Xiphophorus maculatus, molly Poecilia sphenops, angel Pterophyllum scalare, swordtail Xiphophorus helleri, tetras Hyphessobrycon species, barbs Capeota and Puntius spp., gourami Colisa sp., carp Cyprinus carpio, fighters Betta spelendens and others (Brachydanio and Astronotus spp.). Nine species of monogenean trematodes (Dactylogyrus extensus, Dactylogyrus cf. extensus, D. vastator, Dactylogyrus cf. vastator Dactylogyrus spp., Gyrodactylus turnbulli, G. katherineri, Gyrodactylus cf. katherineri, Gyrodactylus spp.), 7 protozoan species (Trichodina nigra, Trichodina spp., Tetrahymena corlissi, T. pyriformis, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, Ichthyobodo necator, Piscinoodinium spp.), 3 species of copepod arthropods (Lernaea cyprinacea, Ergasilus ceylonensis, Argulus foliaceus), 1 metacercarial stage of a digenean trematode (Centrocestus spp.) and 1 nematode (Capillaria spp.) were identified. Parasites were found in fish from 23 of the 26 farms with an overall prevalence of parasitism in 45.3% of fish. The variation in farm prevalence among different parasites was significant (p < 0.01). Fish infection rates with monogenean trematodes, protozoans, copepod crustaceans, digenean trematodes and nematodes were 28.3, 18.4, 4.8, 0.8 and 0.4%, respectively. In all, 50 out of 590 (50/590) guppies were infected with Tetrahymena, compared with 13/930 for all other species, which is a statistically significant result (p < 0.01). Similarly, 13/44 and 18/44 carp were infected with Argulus foliaceus and Lernaea cyprinacea, compared with 7/1476 and 15/1476, respectively, for all other species combined (p < 0.01). Capillaria spp. was found only in guppies (4/590) and angelfish (3/92) while Centrocestus spp. was found in goldfish (12/153) only.

I am going with a nematode or flukes (e.g. roundworm infection cause), as this was also my fish problems and he is acting as yours was. Also, you might check the TDS of your fish tanks to make sure that they are within spec. TDS changes can cause osmolarity changes within the fish (e.g. taking in more water), which when compounded with something like a nematode infection might affect the swim bladder more strongly-due to a change in weight.

Nematodes primarily inhabit gastrointestinal areas, but when the fish has a lot- the nematodes might venture out into the entire body cavity.

Also there are such things as tissue flukes that are primarily found in tissues (e.g. swim bladder). It is possible that infections are co-occuring; nematode and fluke. But flukes I think are more common than nematodes

Ok, now you are just losing me.....lol That is info overload.

What exactly is TDS anyway? I have 14 tanks...don't you think I would have had more problems with 14 tanks over the last 4 years if I had issues with my water or my water source?

It is really unfortunate that it is so difficult to diagnosis a fish's problem. So you know exactly how to treat it. I really can't afford to try this medicine and that medicine until one of them hopefully work. And then I read stories about things being misdiagnosed all the time and the money was wasted on medications that only ended up making things worse for the fish!! Its just really sad.

 

Oh I added some information at the end to try to explain it a little further. I am pretty sure it is flukes or nematodes and the treatment for both are very similar and some treatments- treat both. TDS is total dissolved solids. You use a meter which measures where this value is. Basically it would be different unless you change the water in the tanks (biggest factor!) the exact same in each tank and frequency (this is a bit much and it is just easier to measure by TDS)- and have the exact same substrate, chemicals and feeding behaviors. . That is the one I am using. TDS basically affects water regulation and the degree that water has the tendency to naturally into their bodies- and the extent that the fish must adapt to regulate changes.

The rate of fluke infection is highest among parasitic infections, so if you wanted to just guess generally that is the issue, but he has a distended stomach which is a big warning sign too.

As a comparison the highest reported bacterial infection is about 35% in fish that I could find, whereas it is common of 45% of fish having parasitic infections.

Also, generally parasitic infections leave the host open to bacterial infections because they can break the stomach lining barrier. So, bacterial infections are often secondary.

 

Oh I added some information at the end to try to explain it a little further. I am pretty sure it is flukes or nematodes and the treatment for both are very similar and some treatments- treat both. TDS is total dissolved solids. You use a meter which measures where this value is. Basically it would be different unless you change the water in the tanks (biggest factor!) the exact same in each tank and frequency (this is a bit much and it is just easier to measure by TDS)- and have the exact same substrate, chemicals and feeding behaviors. . That is the one I am using. TDS basically affects water regulation and the degree that water has the tendency to naturally into their bodies- and the extent that the fish must adapt to regulate changes.

The rate of fluke infection is highest among parasitic infections, so if you wanted to just guess generally that is the issue, but he has a distended stomach which is a big warning sign too.

As a comparison the highest reported bacterial infection is about 35% in fish that I could find, whereas it is common of 45% of fish having parasitic infections.

Also, generally parasitic infections leave the host open to bacterial infections because they can break the stomach lining barrier. So, bacterial infections are often secondary.

Gosh...if this TDS business is so important why have I never heard of it before? I have never seen it talked about on fishlore at all.....

So if you are convinced you know what this is, what medication do you think I should be using to treat it? Do you have experience with angels specifically?

Thanks!

 

Well, it is important because it can add to the level of stress the fish experiences when switching tanks and generally TDS is only a small problem in the short term. Unless, fish are otherwise compromised or very sensitive, or the differences are high (very possible). Longer-term it affects kidney and heart health and the effects would not be immediately seen or may be even at all (e.g. may be in late life, it instead dies of high ammonia).

Yes, I have angels in my tank and when I treated them, they had white, strongly, very long poop protruding from their anus. However, the treatment was not directed toward them, it was to my clown loaches, I was surprised they were also infected- there's was subclinical- unlike yours (this means it was a small infection and did not have any maladaptive symptoms), unlike my loaches.

I used flubendazole- this treats for protozoan, nematodes, and flukes. But you can also use prazipro (this just treats for flukes). If you can't find it, let me know.

 

Treatment depends on the cause I'm afraid. If it's a bacterial infection of the kidneys, liver or swimbladder then some of the recommendations are Triple Sulfa or Quinine sulfate. I've also read Furan and Maracyn 2 for some infections.

It's possible that it started out as an injury and the stress from the fighting left him more susceptible to infection. Since you say his poops are normal then I would guess an internal bacterial infection, but that's based on zero experience so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Treatment depends on the cause I'm afraid. If it's a bacterial infection of the kidneys, liver or swimbladder then some of the recommendations are Triple Sulfa or Quinine sulfate. I've also read Furan and Maracyn 2 for some infections.

It's possible that it started out as an injury and the stress from the fighting left him more susceptible to infection. Since you say his poops are normal then I would guess an internal bacterial infection, but that's based on zero experience so take that with a grain of salt.

You may have zero experience, but I really appreciate that you have taken the time to research to try and help MY fish I think that that is so kind of you.

Now...I am curious to see what Tolak thinks about all the added info from you and uncclewis. He has a ton of experience with angels as we all know....so I sent him a message asking for some insight on all of the contemplation going on since he was last here.....

 

Generally bacterial infections present with skin lesions- but there are also protozoans who do this. They however can have internal bacterial infections. It is actually not as common as parasitic infections. Further, the outer layer of most organs is what protects it against the outer contents, this is what parasites may breach. The stomach for example is considered a closed system, which is not breached under any normal circumstances. So, some consider the digestive system outside of the body. When organisms travel, such as flukes in stomachs- and attach to the lining of the stomach, they can breach the barrier, along with sometimes maladaptive immune responses which can damage the tissue further. This would allow bacteria to enter into the organ or area, in which it might otherwise be protected. There is definitely bacteria in the intestines and this bacteria because it is a closed loop system often cannot travel easily into the body when eaten. Very few can cross these linings, and these can definitely be pathogen. It is much easier for bacterium to cross into the blood stream from a cut. But often the white blood cells can attack the bacteria in the blood. However, they cannot do so in the stomach and think of this. You are a tiny guy who speaks through chemical and physical communication but I am only allowing you to make so many of you. I am asking you to take on an organism that is 1 billion times your size and allowing you to work some with others, but not to the extent that there are too many of you.I am also asking you to do it in your closed system- the stomach. This is the problem the cells face against bigger organisms.

And to complicate it, most of them have adaptations to reduce your immune response in defense- but also some of the worst bacterium do too.

 

Here he is today Tolak

Again...not much improvement...but also not worse....

 

I don't know if this really means anything but he looks like he's swimming with "intent". I would think that if he was hopeless he would be moving aimlessly, if at all.

 

I don't know if this really means anything but he looks like he's swimming with "intent". I would think that if he was hopeless he would be moving aimlessly, if at all.

I agree with that! I feel like after this many days he should either be dead, miserable, or at least LOOK ill. But he seems to only have a swimming problem and nothing else. I am glad that he has not deteriorated any further....and I do feel that I am seeing a tiny bit of improvement. But it could just be in my head.

The other thing he does all the time now (you can probably tell in the video) is cross his ventral fins. He either has them crossed or has both of them on one side of his body. I view that as his trying to keep balanced or something. The poor guy.

For the record, I did consider putting him back with his wife to see if that would help. But my 14 year old daughter adamantly insisted that I do not because she feels strongly that the female is responsible for the male's condition. I told her that without the babies around, they should get along fine. But she insisted I don't move him. So I am picking my battles on this one and leaving him where he is.

 

I hope he survives!! Prayers to the fish there will be!!

 

Any antibiotic use would be just for this fish. I'm almost certain it's swimming issues are due to scuffling, the antibiotic would be needed for a secondary infection should there be no progress, or a worsening in the condition. There's plenty of bacteria in a tank, as it is with out own environment. Compromise the immune system of a fish, an opportunistic one can take hold. It's no different than us really, skimp on sleep & healthy meals, run yourself ragged at work, you risk coming down with whatever bug is going around.

I'm seeing progress here, but I sure wouldn't put him back in with his mate. Angels can take a pretty severe beating, the problem that usually occurs with an internal injury is the less aggressive fish attempts to hide, has something solid to one side of them such as a deco or the tank. The fish takes a hard hit to the other side, has no water cushion on the other side, it can get ugly. This one is a survivor, and while he may heal, and perhaps not swim quite right for a while I wouldn't count him out.

As far as the nematodes or internal protizoans, anything of this sort would manifest as fry that die off pretty quickly at an early age, even if the adults are surviving quite well with it. Internal protizoans are a common part of the digestive flora of many cichlids, seen most often causing issues in angels & discus. If that were the case with this fish, after being obviously stressed in a romantic battle, you'd be seeing him hide more, refuse to eat, and stringy feces. I've seen enough of this, I'm not seeing it here. There's plenty of other pathogens that can affect a spawn, ones that adults with a stronger immune system live just fine with.

As mentioned, it may take time, but I'm seeing no backslide. If things did start to go downhill an antibiotic flake would be your best bet, Angels Plus carries a good flake for this.

To get a for certain on an internal pathogen you'd have to do some slides & smears, scope work, and have an idea what you're looking at. It isn't real difficult, the scope & related gear can get a bit pricey, this is why for the hobbyist observation & some guesswork is what is normally used. Commercial hatcheries can afford to sacrifice a few fish for dissection & scope work, few hobbyists will do this.

 

Tolak he's starting to spit out his food. He wants to eat it and keeps it in his mouth for quite a while and then spits it out. Is that a really bad sign?

 

What kind of food? Maybe try something maybe more nutritious? like lets say fruit or veggies that are fish safe?

 

Tolak he's starting to spit out his food. He wants to eat it and keeps it in his mouth for quite a while and then spits it out. Is that a really bad sign?

Hard to say with a suspected internal injury. Give it a day, 2 max, some food dosed with metronidazole may be in order. Besides being a good antiprotizoal it does have some antibiotic effect. It's one of the few meds I do keep on hand, slow to eat or not eating angels are fairly common after the stress of pairing tanks.

 

Also... Flukes are quite common and are neither of those. Yes, the young would probably be greatly affected- if the mother was infected, particularly heavily. Some stats place flukes really high for captive fish.

I would definitely pay attention to their progress... I didn't think of that. But I had a couple of loaches doing similar recently. Two died... I had treated them first with antibiotics and it didn't work. They seemed worse. They were young, so they were also skinny. But my adults while did not seem as affected or have stringy poop, after treatment for protozoan, flukes and nematodes (flubendazole) they did. Except a smaller adult angel, did die too. He was not skinny.

One of my loaches I was going to euthanize, the day after had a worm coming out of him.

Now he is getting better!

 

Hard to say with a suspected internal injury. Give it a day, 2 max, some food dosed with metronidazole may be in order. Besides being a good antiprotizoal it does have some antibiotic effect. It's one of the few meds I do keep on hand, slow to eat or not eating angels are fairly common after the stress of pairing tanks.

I do have seachem metroplex on hand. I worry that dosing his food won't help if he is having trouble eating...what do you suggest?

 

I want clown loaches so bad but I don't have the tank space!! :'(

 

I used erythromycin. A strong broad spectrum used in people. I recommend it... It wasn't my problem, but may be yours. Look up the specific bacterial infection with symptoms. Line that up with whatever you want to treat. Look up if it can kill that sort of bacteria. But also. If you frequently use that stuff then it might be flukes... It is not at all effective against them. I think. It is to gram - bacteria and protozoans.

 

I usually use frozen brine shrimp for dosing metro. Put a bit of shrimp on a paper towel, let it thaw & drain a bit. Sprinkle a bit of metro on the food, stir it in a bit & feed.

 

Hard to say with a suspected internal injury. Give it a day, 2 max, some food dosed with metronidazole may be in order. Besides being a good antiprotizoal it does have some antibiotic effect. It's one of the few meds I do keep on hand, slow to eat or not eating angels are fairly common after the stress of pairing tanks.

Should I do a couple more salt dips? He's only been having them for a day and a half...you originally said to do that for 2-3 days. Should I keep it up? Or is it time to move on to other avenues?