Angelfish swimming at 45 angle, ESha Optima, real deal or snake oil?

diamonfingers

Active Member
I have an angelfish thats started to act weird. It either goes to a specific stone in the tank or the glass sides and stick close to it and look up at 45 degree angle and stays there for a long time. Its as if its laying eggs but its not.

Any one know whats going on? the male one is acting normally
 

Sunrise

Active Member
Could you fill out the emergency template? Also do you have a quarrentine tank? If you do, at least until you know what the problem is I would probably move them in case it is a contagious desiese
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
Could you fill out the emergency template? Also do you have a quarrentine tank? If you do, at least until you know what the problem is I would probably move them in case it is a contagious desiese

I didn't imagine is a disease to report it as an emergency. Just weird behaviour. I will double check. It sits like this for a long time but it does move around and come to eat. It also changes position to sit somewhere else


IMG_8329.jpg
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
I think my angel fish has swim bladder disorder. Went to the shop to ask if they have an all cure solution so he said I should get eSHa 2000 then he said its better after treatment to give it eSHa Optima , its "vitamin" that helps the health of the fish. It making claims like:

eSHa OPTIMA is a unique combination of plant extracts, trace elements, minerals and vitamins that are missing from your tap water. These ingredients help create the natural environment your fish deserve. eSHa OPTIMA strengthens and supports the immune system, boosts reproductive activity and colours and improves development and growth. Your fish will flourish!

I am wondering if I should add this to my tank maintenance routine or is it just snake oil? Any one recognize the product? Can I use with ChemiPure Green(highly recommended btw) ?

The sad part of the story is that both treatments costs more than a new fish o_O
 

ruud

Well Known
a unique combination
....should ring all alarmbells

plant extracts, trace elements, minerals and vitamins

...plants.... wait, I have those
....minerals and trace elements....very most likely in your tap water
vitamins.... aka. proper food

These ingredients help create the natural environment your fish deserve.

These ingredients help the supplier.
 

MacZ

Fishlore Legend
These ingredients help the supplier.
... make money. Finish your sentences, please. ;)

Snake oil with a hint of truth.
I agree it's not going to deliver on all the things they advertise. The company has a bad reputation in most of Europe, store employees are mostly pressed to sell EsHa 2000, I know nobody that would recommend their stuff in their right mind.

ANY vitamin product you can get from ANY manufacturer is ok as a food additive, especially for juveniles in growout. Once a week 1-2 drops in a helping of frozen food for example. A bottle lasts you at least 1-2 years, if you ignore the manufacturers recommendations.

Can I use with ChemiPure Green(highly recommended btw) ?
I wouldn't let anything with a name like that get even remotely close to my tanks. Sounds like Soylent Green. o_O
And having read what this is (gloryfied activated carbon), no, it will absorb anything you put in the tank, resulting in
a. the stuff being saturated faster and thus needing replacement quicker
b. higher amounts of whatever you add, just to get even some of it into animals or plants.
c. an allover high demand of all of these things and you paying them double to triple the money you would if you didn't use these products.

Don't step into this trap.
 

Flyfisha

Fishlore VIP
I can’t help with any experience of the product you ask about, but I can express an opinion about ” swim bladder disorder “. It is a symptom of a problem not a disease in itself.

Something may be pressing on the swim bladder stopping it working correctly.
Possibly constipation or bloat ( gass) from a bacterial infection.
I would suggest not feeding any food for a week along with clean fresh water often.
Unless someone has a better treatment?
Is duckweed a laxative?
 

DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
Esha 2000 has become a kind of snakeoil itself as well.
 

MacZ

Fishlore Legend
I can express an opinion about ” swim bladder disorder “. It is a symptom of a problem not a disease in itself.
Very important!

Esha 2000 has become a kind of snakeoil itself as well.
Of course, it's a mix of cheap disinfectants and the list of ailments it's supposed to cure is ridiculous!
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
thanks every for sharing your knowledge with me I appreciate it!

I wouldn't let anything with a name like that get even remotely close to my tanks. Sounds like Soylent Green. o_O
And having read what this is (gloryfied activated carbon), no, it will absorb anything you put in the tank, resulting in
a. the stuff being saturated faster and thus needing replacement quicker
b. higher amounts of whatever you add, just to get even some of it into animals or plants.
c. an allover high demand of all of these things and you paying them double to triple the money you would if you didn't use these products.

Don't step into this trap.

idk . Before I used it I get yellow ugly water. After I used it the water is crystal and beautiful to look at. Box says it keeps the nutrients for plants. I do not know what it does to my fertilizer and nutrients for the plants or fish, but the product does exactly what it says on the box and I got the results. Purigen seems more popular but I thought that was more harsh.

I can’t help with any experience of the product you ask about, but I can express an opinion about ” swim bladder disorder “. It is a symptom of a problem not a disease in itself.

Something may be pressing on the swim bladder stopping it working correctly.
Possibly constipation or bloat ( gass) from a bacterial infection.
I would suggest not feeding any food for a week along with clean fresh water often.
Unless someone has a better treatment?
Is duckweed a laxative?

I have no solution. I looked up online many people say to use epsom salt but I cant find it where I am. I thought it might go away on its on but it did not. Before isolation the fish came to eat but was unable to collect the food. Will it be ok with a week with no food?

Esha 2000 has become a kind of snakeoil itself as well.

please do not tell me this :( I was hoping it cures the fish. Its been 2 days does not seem any better. Dosage is 3 days. Also cost me like $10+ . Any other medication I should look out for?

I really hate it when companies advertise false information, this should be illegal.
 

MacZ

Fishlore Legend
Before I used it I get yellow ugly water. After I used it the water is crystal and beautiful to look at.
Question of taste. Irrelevant at this point.

The company says it removes a wide range of molecules of different sizes. While some filter media remove small molecules or even ions, others only remove big ones. They say it removes a wide range, which tells me it's removing indiscriminately and that will of course have an effect on the things you want in the water.

please do not tell me this I was hoping it cures the fish. Its been 2 days does not seem any better. Dosage is 3 days. Also cost me like $10+ .
To be clear: EsHa 2000 and EsHa Exit have killed more fish than they have saved.
Any other medication I should look out for?
I suggest opening a thread and fill out the emergency template to find out what exactly is happening. With the little information you provided It could be anything from something that doesn't need treatment to untreatable ailments.
 

Flyfisha

Fishlore VIP
I also think filling out the emergency template is a good idea .
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
Question of taste. Irrelevant at this point.

The company says it removes a wide range of molecules of different sizes. While some filter media remove small molecules or even ions, others only remove big ones. They say it removes a wide range, which tells me it's removing indiscriminately and that will of course have an effect on the things you want in the water.


To be clear: EsHa 2000 and EsHa Exit have killed more fish than they have saved.

I suggest opening a thread and fill out the emergency template to find out what exactly is happening. With the little information you provided It could be anything from something that doesn't need treatment to untreatable ailments.

Sorry , will do. How do you know EsHa 2000 kills fish more than it treats? No way the company would be still in business if that is the case. Is General Cure from API any better?

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank?
-25G
How long has the tank been running?
-3months
Does it have a filter?
-yes
Does it have a heater?
-no
What is the water temperature?
-idk , its open tank in a living room in a 25C/75F AC. Hot climate outside

What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)

2 Angel 2 driftwood catfish, few zebra snails

Maintenance

How often do you change the water?
How much of the water do you change?

-20% weekly

What do you use to treat your water?

-none, use drinking water from RO filter that re mineralise the water

Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?

-both but for the sand I just vaccuum the top layer.

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
What do you use to test the water?
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:

-I did cycle, and I am out of test kits. Tank was near zero nitrite for weeks. Everything is stable and flourishing including plants. I stopped checking. PH 7

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
-daily once
How much do you feed your fish?
-about a tip of a tea spoon.
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
-new life pellets , seaweed pellets
Do you feed frozen?
-no
Do you feed freeze-dried foods?
-no
Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
-1 year
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
-a week
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
-fish feels like its heavy and something is pulling it down when it swims. Just sits by the glass at the bottom. It can swim around but looks like this makes it tired so it just -goes to rest.
Have you started any treatment for the illness?

eSha 2000 3 day dosage.
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
-no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
-no
Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

Everything is listed up.
 

DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
Whst Mac means is that all "wonder" or "general" meds are in fact a shot in in the dark. The used chemicals aren't effective enough to treat any kind of infection, making the bacteria parasite more immune / resistant every time these are used. So ID the disease and use a specific med to treat the disease.
 

MacZ

Fishlore Legend
How do you know EsHa 2000 kills fish more than it treats?
I bred fish for a decade, have a network of other fishkeepers with similar experience level, read a lot of reports, have witnessed a lot of catastrophic outcomes of attempted treatments. And if it didn't kill the fish it did simply nothing, because it was used for something it was not going to have an effect on in the first place.
The main problem is the copper sulphate, which is a sure way to send catfish over to the other side. A general side effect is the oxygen depletion it causes in most cases.
It is mostly still in use because here in Europe we don't have a "I'll sue you" mentality. People just learn their lesson and stop using something that doesn't work.
It's often user error when people use it without even knowing what they do. So they print a disclaimer in the instructions, tell you to aerate the tank during treatment (most beginners think this means leaving the tank lid open, which doesn't cut it) and the company walks out scot-free.

In my opinion there is - at best - 1 diagnosis when the use makes sense: Oodinium (which can pretty much only be treated with copper). Except if it's a catfish or a loach. Or a labyrinth fish. Or a livebearer. Or you have invertebrates in the tank.

Is General Cure from API any beter?
No. Besides the fact API is not sold in my country (with reason, both ingredients are prescription meds here and one is not allowed for use on fish anyway), these broadband one-thing-fixes-all-meds are not worth using.

I take the approach of diagnosing as precise as possible and treat with something actually indicated for the problem.
 

Coradee

Resident Scouser
**Threads merged**
Multiple threads often get confusing & may not get the best responses if members don’t have all the information to work with in one place.
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
Whst Mac means is that all "wonder" or "general" meds are in fact a shot in in the dark. The used chemicals aren't effective enough to treat any kind of infection, making the bacteria parasite more immune / resistant every time these are used. So ID the disease and use a specific med to treat the disease.

That is what I am trying to do but I thought the general ones work

I bred fish for a decade, have a network of other fishkeepers with similar experience level, read a lot of reports, have witnessed a lot of catastrophic outcomes of attempted treatments. And if it didn't kill the fish it did simply nothing, because it was used for something it was not going to have an effect on in the first place.
The main problem is the copper sulphate, which is a sure way to send catfish over to the other side. A general side effect is the oxygen depletion it causes in most cases.
It is mostly still in use because here in Europe we don't have a "I'll sue you" mentality. People just learn their lesson and stop using something that doesn't work.
It's often user error when people use it without even knowing what they do.

I wouldn't say it user error. Companies should held accountable + not allowed to advertise false claims. Its no use to have on the box big red letters saying "CURES 99.99% of fish diseases!" then somewhere in a 70 page manual with 4pt font is written "customer responsible for any damage".

So they print a disclaimer in the instructions, tell you to aerate the tank during treatment (most beginners think this means leaving the tank lid open, which doesn't cut it) and the company walks out scot-free.

Yeah I do not have air stone in this "isolation" bucket.

In my opinion there is - at best - 1 diagnosis when the use makes sense: Oodinium (which can pretty much only be treated with copper). Except if it's a catfish or a loach. Or a labyrinth fish. Or a livebearer. Or you have invertebrates in the tank.

I take the approach of diagnosing as precise as possible and treat with something actually indicated for the problem.

I am trying to figure it out except I have no idea. I am no fish doctor. I am just a simple guy who bought fish from a store and built a nice looking tank and take care of them.

Do you think I should keep it without food for a week?
 

MacZ

Fishlore Legend
I wouldn't say it user error. Companies should held accountable + not allowed to advertise false claims. Its no use to have on the box big red letters saying "CURES 99.99% of fish diseases!" then somewhere in a 70 page manual with 4pt font is written "customer responsible for any damage".
Let's put it this way: Esha has somehow kept evading having their stuff prohibited, but they soon won't have a way anymore.
Yeah I do not have air stone in this "isolation" bucket.
But a filter I hope?
I am trying to figure it out except I have no idea. I am no fish doctor. I am just a simple guy who bought fish from a store and built a nice looking tank and take care of them.
I'm not a veterinarian either, here in Germany you can find maybe 10 vets in a country of 80 million that even take fish cases that are not Koi or professional aquaculture. I couldn't get a vet to even look at my fish if I wanted without paying a lot of money (I don't have) and waiting weeks or even months for an appointment. Regulations here are hard. No antibiotics (actually a good thing), most parasite meds are off the table since last year, a lot is only available on prescription. We have so little choice, there are now more cases that end up in euthanizing fish than successful treatment unless noticed very early and diagnosed correctly.

But with experience comes the insight: Medicating with the wrong med does more damage than not medicating. And to get a better diagnosis there are communities like this one.

Just don't get yourself pressured into just medicating randomly and hoping for the best. That's the point when you better get the clove oil out and ready instead.

Otherwise I see you still do several of the things you mentioned before here on the forum many people told you to change (Water source, maintenance, tank size etc). Maybe go through all the advice and improve general holding conditions as a preventive measure in the future.

Do you think I should keep it without food for a week?
I see no indication, and I know of no possible ailment that could be treated by fasting a fish. Especially that long.
The description of the symptoms is also so general, it could be anything.

Also: Pictures of the tank and the fish are really necessary in such a case.
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
I am confused by my fish behaviour. I heard sick fish do not eat. Mine comes to eat a little but somehow it seems unable to pick up the pellets like the other fish. It doesn't move as fast.

It feels as if something in its belly thats making it heavy to swim upwards.

Let's put it this way: Esha has somehow kept evading having their stuff prohibited, but they soon won't have a way anymore.

But a filter I hope?

I'm not a veterinarian either, here in Germany you can find maybe 10 vets in a country of 80 million that even take fish cases that are not Koi or professional aquaculture. I couldn't get a vet to even look at my fish if I wanted without paying a lot of money (I don't have) and waiting weeks or even months for an appointment. Regulations here are hard. No antibiotics (actually a good thing), most parasite meds are off the table since last year, a lot is only available on prescription. We have so little choice, there are now more cases that end up in euthanizing fish than successful treatment unless noticed very early and diagnosed correctly.

But with experience comes the insight: Medicating with the wrong med does more damage than not medicating. And to get a better diagnosis there are communities like this one.

Just don't get yourself pressured into just medicating randomly and hoping for the best. That's the point when you better get the clove oil out and ready instead.

Otherwise I see you still do several of the things you mentioned before here on the forum many people told you to change (Water source, maintenance, tank size etc). Maybe go through all the advice and improve general holding conditions as a preventive measure in the future.


I see no indication, and I know of no possible ailment that could be treated by fasting a fish. Especially that long.
The description of the symptoms is also so general, it could be anything.

Also: Pictures of the tank and the fish are really necessary in such a case.

I thank your time, effort, care to reply, and sharing your knowledge with me I most appreciate it.

I do have a picture proved here in this post. This is all it does. Sits there, some times it moves around and goes to sit some where else. I took it out of the bucket and returned it to the main tank as the eSha treatment failed.


Indeed I do take into consideration everyone's input and do work by it but I can not work with everyone's advice as some advice are conflicting and you can't trust the judgement of random people. I try to keep with the general consensus. You gave advice IIRC to keep 20G for each angel fish , this guy on youtube says put as many fish as you want as long as you have enough filtration.

Please see it from my own POV as I hear conflicting advice online.
 
OP
diamonfingers

diamonfingers

Active Member
Fish dead :(

Is this part of the hobby? I have only been keeping them around a year and finally I reached enough knowledge to take care of them correctly. I am not sure if they just randomly die without fault from my side. I mean if there is a fault with the feeding or parameters surely the others will die or get ill too.
 

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