Angelfish not happy with new additions - update: I think it’s going to work out!

I have a 132 gallon community tank with two angelfish - they are about four months old and I'd say about half grown. So, reasonably big.

I just added to baby Angelfish (this has taken me many weeks of contemplation but I thought I could make it work) and the more dominant of the two that I already have is not happy.

He/She is chasing the new ones around the tank - not nipping at them but darting at them. They're not hiding, they don't seem particularly fazed, but I don't want the behaviour to escalate.

What are some ways that I could help smooth the process? It's a well-planted tank with a LOT of hiding spaces, tunnels, caves etc.

 

I have 2 angels fish that fight with each other all day long. I am not sure what they are fighting about... wish someone more knowledgable can give us an input

 

It is best to add all the angels that you are going to add at the same time to avoid this kind of territorial behavior. You can move around all the decorations and add new decorations and hiding places. If it dosnt work, you might consider rehoming someone before stress kills them.

diamonfingers, It sounds like you have 2 males, they will probobly never be truly comfertable, together. You may also want to consider rehoming.​

 

Agree with everyone here. If your existing Angel has been in the tank for a while then that is his/Her space in his/her mind and won't settle until the smaller juvenile leaves. Both male and female can be equally aggressive. This is actually a worst case for the smaller Angel as while he may not seem phased I almost guarantee he or she is. I made this mistake before and ended up selling the younger Angel.

The normally solution is add more plants etc to remove the line of sight. But you said you have already done that.

 

It's a well-planted tank with a LOT of hiding spaces, tunnels, caves etc.

Well-planted is a very subjective term. What one calls well planted, the other might deem almost barren. Can you post pictures?
Tunnels and caves are useless to Angelfish, they need lines of sight broken and cover from above and the sides in the form of driftwood, branches and plants.

Angels are cichlids after all and as such very prone to territorial aggression. Only as juveniles and in sufficiently big (read: long!) tanks groups can be kept relatively trouble free.

 

I've done this myself. How big are the babies that you added?

When mixing babies with juveniles to adult sized angels, the babies have to be juveniles also and about nickel size working to quarter size, too big and too fast for the larger angels to really get at. Younger than this, they might be small enough to be worth destroying, and smaller than that they are less coordinated and can't really turn fast enough to get out of the near adults or adults way, which if they do that, the adults usually take it as submission and just give up as they fall in line behind the larger angels, as long as the babies move out of their way when they approach every time.

So if they are smaller than the nickel size, even dime to cent size, I've had the adults keep chasing them down and eventually killing and eating them if they are even smaller than that.

The juveniles really need the size of the large tank to grow out right. A way to buy some time would be to put the adults in the rearing tank, and let the babies have the larger tank to grow out more and faster and then try to reintroduce the adults back in a couple weeks to a month. It will be tight having the adults in a small tank but I've had it work and they can take a beating from each other if equally sized.

You can just remove the most aggressive one and see if the sub male then decides to take the role or go along to get along with the smaller angels. And yeah you can try to add them back when the babies are bigger stronger faster and more coordinated.

IF it's darting at them and stopping not really chasing them down, this is normal and just telling them who's boss and in charge this continues if they cross paths but doesn't escalate as long as the babies back down. Eventually they all fall in line and the larger angels feel secure in their positions and they all get along. You have to determine if it's actual aggression or just dominance.

 

Ok I need to add some more info. Unfortunately I can't post photos as every time I try, my phone poops itself

The new ones are not babies, as in, only just older than fry. They're more what I would call juveniles. Their body sizes are about an inch. The existing angels have probably two-inch bodies. One of them is a veil so looks a lot bigger. I don't know what sex they are but I'm guessing male and female. My fervent hope is that I haven't now ended up with three males and one female. (If this ends up being the case and it gets bad I have another tank they can go in - no other fish in it, it's the tank I use to grow out plants. It's not as big [26 gal] but it would do to put them in if there are any dramas as it's fully cycled but no other fish in it and 40 inches long.)

My tank has loads of driftwood and two plants that go from the substrate up to the surface of the water in order to provide line-of-site breaks (I set it up like this originally for the angels). The caves and tunnels are for the kuhlis and cories but my angels used to go and hang in them when they were very little (about the same size as these new ones).

There are also plants that are only partially submerged just at the surface and have spreading leaves across the surface. There are several quite "bushy" plants around the tank that even my big veil likes to get underneath and check out. I have a bunch of artificial plants in there too that I'm removing as my live ones grow out.

There is no nipping - just darting. Like, "Hey, newbie, I'm the boss. Deal with it".

They're actually all just hanging together at the moment. The little ones are definitely able to get out of the way quickly but keep going back to the bigger ones like "hi hi hi hi hi - play with me?" (I love that about baby angels, actually).

I'm more concerned that actual aggression may start at night with the lights out when everyone is in bed and they can't be supervised.

Or, come to think of it, like human children when a new sibling arrives. It's all fine at first and then the existing child realises the new child isn't going anywhere and then the shiz hits the fan, so to speak.

My tank is 132 gallons, 56 inches long (or wide), 24 inches deep (i.e. from back to front) and 24 inches high.

 

Ok I need to add some more info. Unfortunately I can't post photos as every time I try, my phone poops itself

The new ones are not babies, as in, only just older than fry. They're more what I would call juveniles. Their body sizes are about an inch. The existing angels have probably two-inch bodies. One of them is a veil so looks a lot bigger. I don't know what sex they are but I'm guessing male and female. My fervent hope is that I haven't now ended up with three males and one female. (If this ends up being the case and it gets bad I have another tank they can go in - no other fish in it, it's the tank I use to grow out plants. It's not as big [26 gal] but it would do to put them in if there are any dramas as it's fully cycled but no other fish in it and 40 inches long.)

My tank has loads of driftwood and two plants that go from the substrate up to the surface of the water in order to provide line-of-site breaks (I set it up like this originally for the angels). The caves and tunnels are for the kuhlis and cories but my angels used to go and hang in them when they were very little (about the same size as these new ones).

There are also plants that are only partially submerged just at the surface and have spreading leaves across the surface. There are several quite "bushy" plants around the tank that even my big veil likes to get underneath and check out. I have a bunch of artificial plants in there too that I'm removing as my live ones grow out.

There is no nipping - just darting. Like, "Hey, newbie, I'm the boss. Deal with it".

They're actually all just hanging together at the moment. The little ones are definitely able to get out of the way quickly but keep going back to the bigger ones like "hi hi hi hi hi - play with me?" (I love that about baby angels, actually).

I'm more concerned that actual aggression may start at night with the lights out when everyone is in bed and they can't be supervised.

Or, come to think of it, like human children when a new sibling arrives. It's all fine at first and then the existing child realises the new child isn't going anywhere and then the shiz hits the fan, so to speak.

My tank is 132 gallons, 56 inches long (or wide), 24 inches deep (i.e. from back to front) and 24 inches high.

I believe it's just dominance biggest fish asserting he's the boss. I was of the impression they were baby babies, but at 1" and 2" fish, they are juveniles.

These guys are 5 months old going on 6. The 4 adults in there are 2 year old males. At first, there was some chasing for a couple days but not actually hitting, swimming at them quick and stopping short as they moved out of the way. After that first couple days it's settled down. This is after about a month to 6 weeks being together. The angle is off due to avoid glare tank is 48x18x22 adults are 6" juveniles are 2"-3" tops.

The more you have, the more chance a female appears at maturity. Theres going to be challenges for who's strongest as they mature also but that's usually settled quickly. It's when there's a mature female when everyone gets extremely aggressive and territorial. All heck really breaks loose when a female matures and I'm not looking forward to it in my situation when it comes time to separate females.

In a couple weeks or so around that 2" mark those will slow down growing and the smaller ones will start catching up.
My angels sleep almost immediately with the lights out and don't get active again until about 5 minutes after lights come on. Yours should do the same. Angels are diurnal and are active at night only when spawning in which case one of the pair is awake while the other rests.

 

When dealing with bully Cichlids peace is sometimes achieved "Making the hunter the hunted".
Add one or two young "adult" Angels into the mix.
The bigger new guys will quickly become the top dogs on the hierarchy, demoting the previous bullies.
Instead of four Angels, there will be five or six, which will further dilute the aggression.
A 132 gal. tank should be fine for a large Angel community.
When keeping Cichlids total peace is rarely achieved. As long as the aggression doesn't lead to injury, no worries.

 

I think there is a good chance they will settle down. As long as they are not getting hurt it is probably OK to wait a while and see what happens. Alternatively, if you have another tank, you could remove the two bigger ones while the small ones settle down and then try introducing them again later. I have 6 big angelfish in a similar sized tank (160 x 60 x 60 cm, 63 x 24 x 24" approx.). I had two of them for a few months in a smaller tank and they were about the size of your bigger ones when the big tank was ready. But I added 4 new little ones first, let them settle then added the bigger ones after just a few days (they were actually quite shy and hid in the corner for a couple of days after the move, the little ones were fine). I have had them all about a year and a half and have been lucky as there has not been any major aggression or pairs forming (they are probably all males). They do argue quite a bit but nothing serious and they usually move around together most of the time. Definitely make sure there are plenty of potential hiding places and line of sight breaks, so that they can get away from each other if they need to.

 

Great info across the board. With a 132 you can add more. Larger or smaller it will spread out the aggression. But none the less angels are to me the most vicious of the cichlids people keep together. For me I only keep 2 at a time. Always keep in even numbers. Good luck!

 

Well, everything seems fine this morning. The new ones are out and about a little bit, came and said hello to me.

Then I got what could only be described as a highly indignant telling-off by the original two. Even the shy one joined in. I'm not kidding, they were up at the glass giving me such a lecture, moving their lips like they were yelling at me. Very energetic, swimming back and forth at me.

Lordy. I can't remember the last time I was in this much trouble!

 

Naa they were just hungry!!

 

Naa they were just hungry!!

As usual!!

 

Naa they were just hungry!!

Ahaha probably but there was plenty of food floating - I'd just fed them

Following on about adding two little angels to my community tank, and my bigger angels not being happy about it, I bit the bullet and bought two more.

I read in so many different places that six is really an ideal number, and my tank is big enough.

There was some quite angry darting and intimidation by the veil, so I decided to rearrange the tank, too.

Within one hour ... they're all hanging out like they've been together since birth. It's soooooo sweet!!

(Don't anyone burst my happy bubble here, mkay? )

 

I think it would be dangerous to add more angels as the dynamics tend to not be sustainable. I think but could be mistaken that you have a female in with mostly males. The aggression tends to be different depending on the sexes. The males tend to not be overly aggressive beyond establishing pecking order but the females once paired tend to be more aggressive with regards to territory et all. My last set of angels was 7 males and a female ( a bacteria infection killed most of them after 4 years when I added some cherry barbs that were immune to the bacteria). They were mostly stable for about 3 years but after a while the dynamics slowly decade. One was a hyper aggressive male but the dominant male was significantly larger then the others. The hyper aggressive male used threats after pairing with the female but never actually attacked due to size difference. Unfortunately every morning there was drama because the female and he would hang out in the back and when i fed the fishes they would come to the front to eat and threaten everyone else in the process. In this specific case the female was a sweetheart and never bothered anyone but that is not always the case. If you add more angels you risk more pairs and space becoming an issue. However if you can keep them all male or all male with a female it should mostly work out depending on individual fish personality. Having all females run the risk of the females pairing up and then being quite aggressive. While males will peck and show aggression without attacking female aggression tends to be a lot more damage driven and sometime death depending on the level of aggression of the individual fish.
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I would say the primary reason the aggression stopped is pecking order was established and none of the non-alpha feel confident in challenging the alpha. My issue arose over time because after a while challengers formed. Here time was in order of a couple of years after reaching maturity. It isn't something that happened in weeks; though I did have another tank with 6 angles where the alpha and beta were nearly the same strength and so weekly they would bicker. After a year they got tired of the bickering and stopped and there was mostly harmony. In that aquarium they were all males.
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While in general the females can be significantly smaller i find them more problematic when it comes to aggression - mostly because an angry female does not use threat but rather out right attack and at least the ones i've had - can be quite persistent. I find an aquarium just doesn't provide enough room for true escape in that case and I've had to resort to removal. The worse of the aggression tends to be female on female (i've not had so much issue with females attacking males beyond territory when breeding; but female <-> female aggression even not breeding can be quite harsh and damaging). I've speculated why this happens but am not overly confident in expressing those speculation. One exception to this has been when a female mates with a male and then for some reason later rejects him. She will drive him out of the tank at all cost - or at least a 6 foot tank (not sure if a larger tank would help). Over a period of 3 or 4 months I tried removing the male and then putting him back at a later date and she would not allow it.
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I do plan on setting up a 10 foot tank next year and might try to run a few experiments with the larger aquarium (it will be 10 foot long and 3 foot wide with fairly heavy planting). I will also note that over the years I've seen a wide range of behavior depending on individual fish personality which makes it more difficult to predict long term behavior. Some have been fairly passive and others have demanded at least 4 foot (this has been after pairing up).

 

I’m with Linda. The females can be vicious! I had 3 in a 30g. 1 male 2 females. The male mated with both at different times. Than one day the females killed the male. Vicious attack. They went right after the males swim bladder. It was over before I could remove the male. These 3 were together for over a year before this happened.

 

Than one day the females killed the male.

This is probably less likely to happen in a larger tank, I think a 30 gallon is too small for full grown angels long term and it would be very easy for an angry female to chase down and kill a fish that was annoying her for whatever reason. But really all this just goes to show how very different individual cichlids can be. I have 6 angels in a tank that is about 150 gallons, they have all been in that tank for about 18 months and there has been no sign of pairing so I am assuming they are all males, although there is one that is smaller than the rest. One of them is particularly aggressive to one other in particular, and yet those two always go round together, the subordinate one never fights back, just seems to take being chased and pushed around, but still sticks close to the one that attacks it (obviously no serious harm is done). Then there are two stripy ones that look alike and I am sure are males as they both have the characteristic humped heads and those two are always bickering with each other, but not so much with the others, the two are pretty evenly matched, I can't identify a dominant one. And yet they are nearly always together as well. The remaining two are more independent, and at times may have altercations with any of the others but don't seem to be concerned about any individual in particular. The smallest is the only one that I have seen take any notice of other fish. It will (briefly) chase and peck at emperor tetras and the Laetacaras sometimes. The others ignore all other fish. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the 10ft tank with a mixed sex group....

 

This is probably less likely to happen in a larger tank, I think a 30 gallon is too small for full grown angels long term and it would be very easy for an angry female to chase down and kill a fish that was annoying her for whatever reason. But really all this just goes to show how very different individual cichlids can be. I have 6 angels in a tank that is about 150 gallons, they have all been in that tank for about 18 months and there has been no sign of pairing so I am assuming they are all males, although there is one that is smaller than the rest. One of them is particularly aggressive to one other in particular, and yet those two always go round together, the subordinate one never fights back, just seems to take being chased and pushed around, but still sticks close to the one that attacks it (obviously no serious harm is done). Then there are two stripy ones that look alike and I am sure are males as they both have the characteristic humped heads and those two are always bickering with each other, but not so much with the others, the two are pretty evenly matched, I can't identify a dominant one. And yet they are nearly always together as well. The remaining two are more independent, and at times may have altercations with any of the others but don't seem to be concerned about any individual in particular. The smallest is the only one that I have seen take any notice of other fish. It will (briefly) chase and peck at emperor tetras and the Laetacaras sometimes. The others ignore all other fish. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the 10ft tank with a mixed sex group....

A 30 is pretty small; but i had them in a 6 foot tank and one day my female decided she didn't like the other female (this is a different stocking than the one described above where I had 2 females and 1 male (i had 2 males but then one day this female decided she preferred the other; and drove the other male out of the aquarium). Normally when there was bickering the picked on angel would hide in the plants but when she went berserk she would find her no matter where she hid. The next day i took the picked on female to the lfs. Again this depend on individual fishes but in nearly all instances where I had angels doing serious damage it has been the female. As to other fishes other than those small enough to eat i've not seen angels actively pick on other fishes (tetra, loaches and cichlid). This particular female was actually a good community fish just lousy with other angels. When they bred in the community tank she was able to raise her frys to free swimming but only guarded the area immediately around the eggs/frys and was generally comfortable with other fishes that stayed 6 or 8 inches away. This is in contrast to another pair i had before her where she demanded most of the tank and everyone else had to hide in the corners. She was not great at handling the eggs but she was a terror to other fishes.