Angelfish Mating or killing

KribensisLover1

Member
So I have a pair of mated angelfish. Been Mates a full year. They started showing tubes but there was an aggressive lab in the tank and nobody (even my Kribs) were spawning. The lab is now moved to a different tank. HOWEVER the angelfish, who do EVERYTHING in tandem, are being odd. The male appeared to be kissing the side of her body and she swam away and then when she came back he lunged at her, touching her body, a few times, until she swam away. I hope they aren’t turning on each other. Are they? Or is this mating?
 

jake37

Member
Not mating. If it is the male - it is more of an aggression - leave. Perhaps you have two females ?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
Not mating. If it is the male - it is more of an aggression - leave. Perhaps you have two females ?
I guess that’s possible. I have some older pics of tubes. These are from October Bc I’m at the grocery store but what do you think? I know her fins are ripped Bc she has fin issues In general. What do you think? Thank you! This is to show tubes and then shape overall!!
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jake37

Member
I suck at this but i think two females. I think you should ask others who are better at this sort of thing. The problem is neither one is fully extended but they look a bit 'wider' than the males.
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That black one looks like it has taken a beating. That other one looks pretty healthy.
 

TClare

Member
I don't have much experience with angelfish, but quite a bit with other cichlids. The black one is a female, I can’t be sure about the koi one though.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
I suck at this but i think two females. I think you should ask others who are better at this sort of thing. The problem is neither one is fully extended but they look a bit 'wider' than the males.
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That black one looks like it has taken a beating. That other one looks pretty healthy.
Well she generally does look like that. Bc she got her entire tail bitten off last year in another tank. It’s has always looked a bit lacy (her name is lacy lol) since then. Their tails both also get little nipped when the Kribs mate (every time without fail). I’ll show new pics now. I do think they look pretty different in the bodies but ive never had two angels together. I also think the female (I agree TClare that the black is def a female) has different tubes than the koi. They’re the only two angels in the tank so not sure why they would start fighting. The lab left so I figured they were spawning but maybe they’re getting a pecking order? Though the male krib is the boss he doesn’t show his face ever.
I really hope it’s the pecking I have heard about when about to spawn Bc I love them so much. I don’t want the black female to get hurt—she’s my baby Bc she fought so hard after the tail was bitten off and I’m very attached to her.
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TClare

Member
Actually seeing the other photos now I think they are both females.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
Actually seeing the other photos now I think they are both females.
DARN IT! Are you positive? And why are they arguing? Will they be best friends again! I’m so upset seriously.

EDIT

don’t you think she has a more angular face by far?


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TClare

Member
I am not sure about the faces, just going by the breeding tubes. I know that sometimes two females spawn together. Often with cichlid pairs if one, usually the male, wants to breed and the female is not ready, the male can get quite aggressive with her. I am not sure if a similar situation can happen with two females, if one wants to breed and the other doesn’t??
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
I am not sure about the faces, just going by the breeding tubes. I know that sometimes two females spawn together. Often with cichlid pairs if one, usually the male, wants to breed and the female is not ready, the male can get quite aggressive with her. I am not sure if a similar situation can happen with two females, if one wants to breed and the other doesn’t??
I’m super duper hoping the koi is a male and or they stay buddies if they’re both females! Not sure how bad it has to get. It’s just started.
TClare said:
I am not sure about the faces, just going by the breeding tubes. I know that sometimes two females spawn together. Often with cichlid pairs if one, usually the male, wants to breed and the female is not ready, the male can get quite aggressive with her. I am not sure if a similar situation can happen with two females, if one wants to breed and the other doesn’t??
Also I have heard females don’t fight each other. Is that wrong?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
Ok so today they are BFF chasing others away.
 

TClare

Member
KribensisLover1 said:
Ok so today they are BFF chasing others away.
If they are chasing other fish away they might spawn soon, then you will know for sure what sex they are.
 

jake37

Member
Sometime female spawns with females but for an odd reason the eggs are never fertile.....
 

coralbandit

Member
Both have small vents .
Have you ever seen eggs ?
I would say 2 males .
The black one is getting whipped and could use some help escaping the koi IMO ...
 

TClare

Member
I think the vents are small because they are not fully out in the photos. To me they look more like females but I could be wrong.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
This is long but here’s the deets:

They are typically so gentle with each other—I had the black one in a tank with another Angel for 1 DAY, who I believe was a male (now rehomed) and this happened (see pics). However, I’m not certain that Angel was a male, and I don’t think that’s telling either way, right? Bc a male could have done that to a non mate female, or a male to a male. I have heard females don’t fight each other, but I was bringing a new Angel into a sole angels territory so perhaps they could have both been females and still had that happen? You can see what happened to her tail and how it’s never been the same. Maybe Bc she was so young?
But now I’m wondering if the black one resembles a male more with the hump on the head?!?
Either way they are being somewhat aggressive to the tetras (not super duper aggressive), yet as I mentioned, these Angels are super chill and don’t even swim away from the Kribs when necessary so any aggression is atypical. Anyway, the aggression is this: the tetras are high up top swimmers—WAY too close to the lid for my comfort when feeding—so they aren’t in the Angels territory really. Today, the koi chased the tetras away every so often (about two times every five minutes, yet not every time the tetras swam by). The koi swims straight up and lunges but not like a fast torpedo like my Kribs. The tetras also clear out so fast when the Koi does this so perhaps the koi doesn’t need to be super aggressive. I saw the black one do this once but only once. Anyway they aren’t being super territorial like other spawning fish I’ve had. The koi is picking a lot at the driftwood, which is a new thing, and I’ve heard that can be a sign of being ready to spawn. Again doesn’t mean they are m/f!! So who knows. I’ve had them for 11 months together, and I would have thought they would have spawned by now—their tubes came out a little less than they are now back at the end of October! However, as I also said, when the aggressive lab was in the tank, all spawning ceased completely (and my Kribs spawned consistently, and had babies), prior to the lab being in that tank, and the Kribs have begun the spawning process again with the lab moved out of the tank less than a week. I have read you won’t see a males tubes until they are spawning and the koi are much harder to see—though they ARE visible. Eek’ I just want them to get along and it’s so confusing! I woke this morning to a few nipped fins on the koi but I am pretty positive that’s from the Kribs Bc they do that when breeding.Ps this is the black female a few days AFTER the tail was bitten off SO the photo shows some regrowth. That’s how bad it was.


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jake37

Member
Just an fyi: Once they reach breeding age females can be quite aggressive torwards any female that is interested in mating. In my experience females will do far more damage than males - males mostly bluster and chase but females will hunt down and kill. At least that is what i've seen.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
Just an fyi: Once they reach breeding age females can be quite aggressive torwards any female that is interested in mating. In my experience females will do far more damage than males - males mostly bluster and chase but females will hunt down and kill. At least that is what i've seen.
Even if there are two females only in the tank? They seem to be BFF now but I’ll keep an eye out. Fish get nuts when breeding from what I’ve seen and what you’re describing whatever the set up (f/f even). Wait I just realized do either of their stomachs look like they are ready? Bc that’s an indicator
 

jake37

Member
If there are only two females in the tank they don't need to worry about the other mating 'their' male.....

KribensisLover1 said:
Even if there are two females only in the tank? They seem to be BFF now but I’ll keep an eye out. Fish get nuts when breeding from what I’ve seen and what you’re describing whatever the set up (f/f even). Wait I just realized do either of their stomachs look like they are ready? Bc that’s an indicator
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
If there are only two females in the tank they don't need to worry about the other mating 'their' male.....
Right so they wouldn’t fight right? All that matters is that I have a peaceful tank! Love these two together! You have been so helpful—everybody has! Thank you and I’ll keep you posted!!
 

jake37

Member
They shouldn't fight but each fish is different. Still let us know if they lay eggs - if they do maybe take a picture while they are laying the eggs (of both fishes) so we can see if you have 2 males (not likely if they lay eggs); 2 females or 1 male and 1 female.

KribensisLover1 said:
Right so they wouldn’t fight right? All that matters is that I have a peaceful tank! Love these two together! You have been so helpful—everybody has! Thank you and I’ll keep you posted!!
 

TClare

Member
Please do, its interesting! I am pretty sure at least the black one is a female but lets see...regarding picking at driftwood, it could be cleaning a site for spawning, but I have some new very small angelfish and they are always doing that.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
THANK YOU! I most certainly will! Is there any specific time they might lay? For ex when lights are off, in early morning or late at night etc? Just curious!
I just spent two hours aquascaping my 30 gallon lab tank. I ran out of hot water. I refilled and the tank was 79.7 and after was 76.6-77.00
Let’s hope I didn’t kill them
 

TClare

Member
KribensisLover1 said:
THANK YOU! I most certainly will! Is there any specific time they might lay? For ex when lights are off, in early morning or late at night etc? Just curious!
I just spent two hours aquascaping my 30 gallon lab tank. I ran out of hot water. I refilled and the tank was 79.7 and after was 76.6-77.00
Let’s hope I didn’t kill them
I dont think there is a particular time for spawning, not with other cichlids anyway. I have never bred angels. And I am sure the labs will be OK, its not a big temperature difference. Sometimes a water change with cooler water can stimulate spawning behaviour...
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
I dont think there is a particular time for spawning, not with other cichlids anyway. I have never bred angels. And I am sure the labs will be OK, its not a big temperature difference. Sometimes a water change with cooler water can stimulate spawning behaviour...
Thank you! Shoot did my water change for the Angels tank on Monday so can’t try that until next week! Also, I try to spy on them at night and it’s so tough Bc even my phone flashlight is too bright. Has anybody come up with a way to observe? Bc I know a lot of bullying goes on at night.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
UPDATES: and thank you all for your help!
They’re BFF again and are both pecking at the driftwood. I see the black Angelfish trying to peck at the mirror reflection Lolol. Here are updated pics Bc the black ones tubes have DEF come out more and I think the Koi’s have also. Doesn’t mean they are a male female pair just an update to show tubes.
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jake37

Member
The black one is not out very far the koi is looking more like a male. The pecking on the wood would be to clean it for egg laying.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
The black one is not out very far the koi is looking more like a male. The pecking on the wood would be to clean it for egg laying.
Thank you! So much! So tough to tell. SO appreciate your help.
 

TClare

Member
Yes I agree the koi looks more like a male now. Black is female I am sure. Good luck!
 

TClare

Member
Any news on those angels?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
Any news on those angels?
I just realized I had written an update and not posted and lost it!
So the Kribs are mid spawn; she’s been in the cave about three days. The koi angelfish has more nipped fins. Not really relevant just some tank background.

So last Friday/Saturday both Lacey (black) AND Goldie (Koi’s) parts were FAR out, and I had read that the males tubes only come out when they are ready to spawn so I thought it was coming. However, I saw no eggs, and Sunday his tubes were back to how they had been in the first pics I posted on this thread.
Today is Tuesday. The black Angelfish’s tubes have stayed extremely visible, and the Koi’s have come out a little again, similar to the last pics I posted on this thread, yet not to the degree they had been for the 24 hours during the weekend.

Back in October, Lacey’s tubes started showing for the first time ever, and they stayed visible since then, but consistently—never out more or less. Then last week, her tubes became WAY more visible and the Koi’s tubes also have shown more in varying degrees. So I’m not certain if this means a spawn is imminent, or if the tubes will stay like they are for another few months and no spawn will occur. Is this just a progression, like October, or is this TIME Lolol. Again I am not sure about genders but I just say male and female. What I had written in the post I lost was that they (and forgive me for this) but they resemble human parts—like the Koi’s tube looks like a human males that could enter Lacey’s tubes (which look like a human females). I know that’s not how they breed but that’s the best way for me to describe how they looked and how different they looked from each other’s. I’m sorry for the description! Thank you for asking! And they are getting along as they usually did—shadows to each other—except when they sleep she hides in the back and he’s way up front.
 

TClare

Member
It does sound like the koi is mostly likely a male, but it is strange that the female has her tube visible all the time. In my experience with several other cichlid species the tubes only come out at the most a couple of days before spawning and disappear very soon after. Is it possible they could have spawned and eaten the eggs?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
It does sound like the koi is mostly likely a male, but it is strange that the female has her tube visible all the time. In my experience with several other cichlid species the tubes only come out at the most a couple of days before spawning and disappear very soon after. Is it possible they could have spawned and eaten the eggs?
Yes def. Bc I’m sure that can happen fast and I have a morning timer for the lights on but then a break mid day and then I went to my in laws until late that night and the lights were off so I basically barely saw them all Sat. Not sure how fast the spawn happens Bc my Kribs go into hiding for days but I can’t imagine it’s a super long process right?
 

TClare

Member
No, it doesn’t take long at all. I did have a similar thing with my Cichlasomas recently. They spawned and reared their fry successfully, then almost as soon as I removed the fry the female started displaying to and chasing the male, cleaning a rock and her tube was out. But the male did not take any notice. This went on for a couple of days, then she was back to normal. Because her tube was out I think she probably spawned and ate the eggs as the male was not not cooperating, not quite sure what was going on though as its usually the male who wants to breed first and the female not ready...
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
No, it doesn’t take long at all. I did have a similar thing with my Cichlasomas recently. They spawned and reared their fry successfully, then almost as soon as I removed the fry the female started displaying to and chasing the male, cleaning a rock and her tube was out. But the male did not take any notice. This went on for a couple of days, then she was back to normal. Because her tube was out I think she probably spawned and ate the eggs as the male was not not cooperating, not quite sure what was going on though as its usually the male who wants to breed first and the female not ready...
I am super curious to know if I missed it! I wish I could spy on them at night and have a quick fast forward recorder to check what they do with the lights out. I know the Kribs come out more even with the lights on and then see me and hide more. So yes if it did happen I missed it! Thank you!
 

TClare

Member
Oh well, if they did spawn it will probably happen again. I think it is unlikely to be at night, but who knows!
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
Oh well, if they did spawn it will probably happen again. I think it is unlikely to be at night, but who knows!
Well the tubes are out so much! They are chasing tetras away but the Kribs are flying around in the middle. She’s just impossible to photograph. The koi is pecking at wood and the black is chasing others away. Oh wait they both are. But the silly Kribs keep flying through the middle.
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TClare

Member
I am pretty sure now the koi looks like a male, maybe you will get a spawning soon....good luck!
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
I am pretty sure now the koi looks like a male, maybe you will get a spawning soon....good luck!
Yes now the koi is chasing away so I am trying to extrapolate a snap shot of behavior from one sec so it’s tough. Fed frozen brine shrimp and lights out!
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
MAJOR update. So now look at her parts. And she’s dropping stuff out of her? Look kinda like brine
 

jake37

Member
Well it sort of looks like a lady part.
 

TClare

Member
Not really sure what you mean by the brine? But it does look like she is close to spawning...
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 TClare well EGGS! Sorry for the dark pics. I’ve left lights off Bc we also have DAY OLD Krib babies. And a paralyzed tetra who is dead I. The tank but I can’t change water or the parents will freak. I can’t find the dead tetra but I know he’s gone or close. He’s fertilizing now!
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jake37

Member
Adding coralbandit in case he is curious about the fishes sex. Also be aware it might take them 4 or 5 times to get it right. First they might not actually get the eggs fertilized; then they might not handle the wrigglers well; then they might not handle the free swimming frys. If the parents are by themselves you might try raising the free swimmers with the parents or you might find you have to remove them when they are wrigglers. It is normal the parents to move the wrigglers once they hatch. Also they will eat fungus or unfertilized eggs so don't be upset if they eat some of the eggs. They will also pick up wrigglers or eggs that fall and spit them back out.
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
Adding coralbandit in case he is curious about the fishes sex. Also be aware it might take them 4 or 5 times to get it right. First they might not actually get the eggs fertilized; then they might not handle the wrigglers well; then they might not handle the free swimming frys. If the parents are by themselves you might try raising the free swimmers with the parents or you might find you have to remove them when they are wrigglers. It is normal the parents to move the wrigglers once they hatch. Also they will eat fungus or unfertilized eggs so don't be upset if they eat some of the eggs. They will also pick up wrigglers or eggs that fall and spit them back out.
Thank you! I remember when I saw my krib father pick up a baby in his mouth and move it to save it and still think it’s so cool. Luckily both ‘couples’ are busy with their partners so not too much fighting. I think the angels possibly timed it but whatever it is they did it WELL. and this missing tetra is driving me batty worrying ahout ammonia. But just keeping lights out and staring in excitement. Thank you all so much for all of your help advice and PATIENCE! By the way Laceys tubes came out BIG TIME but Goldies didn’t as much. His came out more than before for shre and he appeared to swim over very very closely as in the pics above fertilizing but his tubes weren’t out as much (well he wasn’t dropping eggs!) so funny how many babies are around here!
 

jake37

Member
Oh. It also helps to leave the room light on during the night - if you think the tank has ammonia you should test it - that is not good for the fishes and worse for frys. A frequent cause of fry death is ammonia from decaying food.
 

TClare

Member
About time! Good luck with the eggs...and what kind of tertra was it? If it is a small one I wouldn’t worry too much. Do you have any snails in there that would eat it? Or even the kribs might have?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
TClare said:
About time! Good luck with the eggs...and what kind of tertra was it? If it is a small one I wouldn’t worry too much. Do you have any snails in there that would eat it? Or even the kribs might have?
P
It’s a red eye. Not tiny. And this New job threw me off but I realized I haven’t change the water since last Monday and it’s Friday and looking at the ammonia it’s between .25 and .5 maybe closer to .5. Not cool. So I put maybe a 1/4 cap of prime into the tank. Should I put more until tomorrow am?
 

jake37

Member
Only if the ammonia increases. Is this tank cycled ?
 
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KribensisLover1

Member
jake37 said:
Only if the ammonia increases. Is this tank cycled ?
Oh yes. I just made a mistake and usually change the water anywhere from Wed to Fri and forgot (it’s been a crazy week) that I hadn’t changed it since last Monday! And I feed a lot so the water changes are super necessary even with the two filters. You’ll see what I mean by the color here. Eek! AND WHEN I CHANGE FHE WAYER THE EGGS WILL BE IN A DRY AREA! What can I do?
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