Angelfish...is It A Blue Ghost Or A Blue Silver?

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Blue ghost or blue silver?

  1. Blue ghost

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  2. Blue silver

    5 vote(s)
    83.3%
  1. bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    What do the angelfish experts think? Blue ghost or blue silver? I added a pole for fun lol 20180530_094536.jpg

    @chromedome52 I'd love your opinion?
     




  2. Fanatic

    Fanatic Fishlore VIP Member

    Hello!

    I think that you have a blue silver, but I may certainly be wrong. I haven't had angels before.
    Nonetheless, it's a beautiful fish!
     




  3. OP
    OP
    bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    Thank you :) I desperately want for her to be a ghost for breeding purposes. But...I think it is wishful thinking. :-(

    I want to make Paraiba babies really bad. I have 3 Paraiba males and no females. If she is a blue ghost, she will produce 50% paraibas with one of the Paraiba males. If she is just a blue silver....they will produce 100% blue ghosts. This means I will have to wait 8-12 months to actually start breeding paraibas because I will need for their kids to grow up first and breed one of those females with one of my 3 Paraiba males.

    I don't have the patience. I have used this method to get albino angels and also used this method to get yellow blue eyed plecos. Its time consuming and space restricting and I just don't want to have to wait!!! haha
     




  4. JLeeM

    JLeeM Well Known Member Member

    This may be asking way more than I can understand, but why/how does so much of their genetics hinge on wether or not they have a solid or broken middle stripe?
     
  5. chromedome52

    chromedome52 Fishlore VIP Member

    The stripes on the body were proven back in the late 1960s to be easily influenced by photoperiod. The longer the lights were on, the paler the stripes. Dr. Joanne Norton wrote an article about this for The Aquarium magazine, and showed that light for 24 hours a day until they are about 6 weeks old will eliminate the stripes altogether. Slightly less light left some dark pigment intact. There were some breeders at the time who left the lights on 24 hours the first few weeks after they started swimming, and some of their young were not as well defined as a proper silver angel.

    A Ghost would have no stripes at all. I ended up with a whole lot of them a couple of years ago when my beautiful Philippine Blue female spawned with what turned out to be a Pinoy Clown that I purchased as just a straight Pinoy. Clown is the result of a Blushing gene and a Zebra gene, which as it turns out, are alleles at the same locus. So daddy could only give either one Blushing gene or one Zebra gene.The clown pattern was partially hidden by the Black gene that made it a Pinoy.

    Apparently I didn't take any pictures of them, either. Thought I did. Oh, wait a minute! I did!!
    Blue Ghost fry 1.JPG
     
  6. OP
    OP
    bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    Its not just the middle stripe. I was just really hoping that this wasn't a silver and was looking for any reason for it not to be! haha I have read that incomplete stripes, or missing a stripe, can happen in ghosts, but usually not. I have learned today that environmental things like lighting can affect the stripes being complete or not. So its more likely that her incomplete stripes are related to lighting rather than her having a stripeless gene. More often than not, a ghost will have nothing more that the stripe over the eye and the stripe where the tail connects to the body. The rest of the body is solid.

    A Paraiba has two stripeless genes and two blue genes. A silver has no stripeless gene. So every kid my paraiba has with a silver will have one stripeless gene (they all get one of their dad's two stripeless genes) Making every one of their kids ghosts. But if I am lucky and she is a ghost...then its a whole other story!! haha

    In response to your question though....here is what I have learned about genetics and the stripes. I will try and keep it as simple as possible. There is a gene called the zebra gene that is on the same locus as the stripeless gene. If the fish has one stripeless gene and one zebra gene on that locus, they are called a clown. Clowns have jumbled stripes that look more like large black dots. But the markings are different than what you see on a marble. And the spots come and go with mood just like the stripes on a silver does. If they have two stripeless genes they are a blushing angel. And if they have only one stripeless gene and NO zebra they are a ghost. And then you will get a zebra angelfish with two zebra genes, or one zebra gene as long as there isn't a stripeless gene with it.

    That one locus, the zebra/stripeless locus, is responsible for the markings on a non-marble angelfish. You can have 5 combos
    S/S or S/+ or S/Z or Z/Z or Z/+ and then +/+ would be just a normal silver.

    S/S = blushing
    S/+ = ghost
    S/Z = clown
    Z/Z = zebra
    Z/+ = zebra.

    This is how I understand it to be. :)

    I hope I described that accurately!

    EDIT @chromedome52 COMPLETELY ninja'd me! lol It appears I was pretty on point though based on his response!
     
  7. JLeeM

    JLeeM Well Known Member Member

    So....a paraiba is a combination of genes? It has to be blushing as well as two blue genes?
     
  8. OP
    OP
    bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    Yes. correct. :)
    Blushing angels get the iridescent patching that is so pretty. Throw the blue genes into the mix and those patches are actually an iridescent blue making them paraibas. They are so stunning!

    But just for the record, the blushing trait is not life long. Blushing angels will lose that characteristic as adults. Angelfish genetics are so fun! That is why I have bred SOOOO many pairs over the last few years. But the thing is...I only breed them once. I do a lot of partner swapping! haha I have never had a pair produce such unique offspring that it was worth breeding them a 2nd time. But if I get a pair that can produce paraibas, you better believe I will be breeding them more than once! But I am getting really bored with silver and marble!!!!!!

    My newest batch has smokies, marbles and what appear to be a couple blushing ones....and they are 50% veil tails. So its kind of a fun batch. I might raise another of that pairs spawns later down the road. As long as they don't get divorced like many of my other pairs have! But right now I am focused on the blue gene and getting the different blue morphs OTHER THAN BLUE SILVER!! These silver ones were my first blues ever. And I spent a long time working on getting blues. But I am tired of blue silvers! Give me some variety man!! lol

    I have 2 new blue pairs right now. The pariaba with the blue silver and then a blue smokey with a blue silver. I hope the silver "halves" of those pairs will not prevent me from getting a variety! But I am afraid they might :-( Looks like I might have to wait another year before my next goal can be met (paraibas) I did throw a post out on a local facebook page for fish hobbiests asking if anyone happened to have a female Paraiba they'd be willing to sell. lol I can't even find them online right now! (not that I am in a financial spot to spend big bucks shipping live fish)
     
  9. AngelTheGypsy

    AngelTheGypsy Fishlore VIP Member

    I just realized I’ve never actually known what blushing meant...Rosie has pink cheeks, so that’s what I thought blushing meant. Lol
    Genetically, what could the offspring be between her (panda koi blushing) and either Elvis (Blue silver Pearlscale) or Blue (blue smokey Pearlscale)? I also got Rosie from @Mcasella, so we should maybe know some of all their genetics?
     
  10. Mcasella

    Mcasella Fishlore VIP Member

    You pretty much have it with the name you listed, gold marble stripeless (two stripeless genes), you would get 4 genotypes from that, ghost, smokey ghost, smokey/silver gold marble ghost. So all ghosts.
     
  11. AngelTheGypsy

    AngelTheGypsy Fishlore VIP Member

    Ok well I give up. That just confused me
     
  12. chromedome52

    chromedome52 Fishlore VIP Member

    Actually, adult blushers, while no longer having the transparent gill covers that the red gills show through, do have other characteristics that differentiate them from simple Ghost strain. Most of the body lacks the reflective scales, which are limited to a few patches. These stand out more on Paraiba because they are blue instead of just silver.
     
  13. Mcasella

    Mcasella Fishlore VIP Member

    I have two blushers that are pretty much completely white (like a cooked tilapia fillet) with more silver patches, one has more visible ones (the one that doesn't have visible gills under the gill covers), the other has visible gills under the gill covers.