Amoxicillin and Ciprofloxacin Questions (for bacterial infections)

[julifhy]

It looks like my betta has a bacterial infection and I'm confused on which medication to use.
(Here's my previous Thread. I thought it would be better making a separate thread, because these are only questions I have about the medications.)

Symptoms:
- He HAD fin rot, but doesn't currently have it
- Lethargy
- Clamped fins
- 2 days ago he was pineconing slightly, but the pineconing is now gone
- White rings around his eyes

These are the questions I have:
- Will ciprofloxacin help with possible Popeye as well?
- The directions on ciprofloxacin say to dissolve in 2 gallons of water, leave the fish in for an hour, and do a water change. So am I use a 2 gallon container and do 100% water changes everyday?
- Lastly, are both medications completely safe to use? Are there any possible side effects I should know about before using? I really don't want my betta to get any worse or more stressed out
- Would ciprofloxacin help with everything including the slight popeye?
- Bettaboxx recommends using amoxicillin for popeye and dropsy. Is there any reason why they would be recommending that over ciprofloxacin? Bacterial Infection - Bettaboxx

My betta still has a huge appetite, vibrant color, but it looks hard for him to see and swim. It makes me so sad seeing him this way
I really want to make sure I'm getting the correct medication.

AvalancheDave recommended I use ciprofloxacin because most bacterial infections are gram negative.
FishGirl38 I think you helped me with something similar before. Would you be able to help?

 

[FishGirl38]

I am not familiar with this drug personally - I've never seen it where I work.
However, AvalancheDave is another Great Resource for things like this - It is true that usually most bacterial infections that infect fish are gram - negative. If that's a gram - negative medication and you have access to it, I dont see why it wouldn't help.

To help with like, 'what treat's what'...

A lot of people (cognitively) group diseases based on their symptoms - and then think they NEED to find this ONE specific drug to take care of this ONE (vaguely named) disease.

The truth is - there isn't a medication that treats 'dropsy' - But there IS a medication that treats the bacteria that causes the symptoms of dropsy - if that makes sense...Dropsy doesn't really exist, it's just what we 'call' that specific group of symptoms and GENERALLY, those symptoms lead us back to a gram-negative bacteria. So, in saying that, If it treats 'dropsy', than it may also treat other symptoms caused by the same type of bacteria.

I disagree with bettaboxx - amoxicillin is a primarily gram - positive medication - whereas dropsy (and it's additional symptoms/popeye) is typically caused by a gram - negative bacteria.

if you have observed pine-coning, even if it's gone now - I would treat with gram - negative.
Gram - positive bacteria doesn't typically cause the pine-coning symptom - and that one (the symptom) is a tell tale sign.

EDIT: I'll correct myself because I feel it's somewhat necessary - amoxicillin is a broad range antibiotic. It primarily treats gram - positive, but it does have some affect on some gram-negative strains as well. Essentially, using amoxicillin would rule out any gram - positive infections, as well as potentially also treating the gram - negative one - but In my opinion this sounds a tad less effective - but I can't explain the science behind it so I'm not sure if it would help or not...

 

[AvalancheDave]

CIR 84/FA084: Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture

Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed. Erythromycin is not FDA-approved for use with food fish.

The penicillins, including penicillin, amoxicillin, and ampicillin, are most effective against gram-positive bacteria such as Streptococcus species; therefore, for the same reasons as those given above, these antibiotics are not a good first choice for most bacterial infections in fish. None of the penicillins are FDA-approved for use in food fish.

Ignore the dosing instructions with the ciprofloxacin. It's really sold for humans to exploit the loophole allowing them to be sold OTC for fish/birds. I don't know how much effort they put into determining the dosage for fish since it's a sham anyway.

I highly recommend a hospital tank and dosing 1,000 mg per day per 10 gal with a large water change in between. I've based the dosing on studies done of ciprofloxacin and fish.

 

[julifhy]

I am not familiar with this drug personally - I've never seen it where I work.
However, AvalancheDave is another Great Resource for things like this - It is true that usually most bacterial infections that infect fish are gram - negative. If that's a gram - negative medication and you have access to it, I dont see why it wouldn't help.

To help with like, 'what treat's what'...

A lot of people (cognitively) group diseases based on their symptoms - and then think they NEED to find this ONE specific drug to take care of this ONE (vaguely named) disease.

The truth is - there isn't a medication that treats 'dropsy' - But there IS a medication that treats the bacteria that causes the symptoms of dropsy - if that makes sense...Dropsy doesn't really exist, it's just what we 'call' that specific group of symptoms and GENERALLY, those symptoms lead us back to a gram-negative bacteria. So, in saying that, If it treats 'dropsy', than it may also treat other symptoms caused by the same type of bacteria.

I disagree with bettaboxx - amoxicillin is a primarily gram - positive medication - whereas dropsy (and it's additional symptoms/popeye) is typically caused by a gram - negative bacteria.

if you have observed pine-coning, even if it's gone now - I would treat with gram - negative.
Gram - positive bacteria doesn't typically cause the pine-coning symptom - and that one (the symptom) is a tell tale sign.

EDIT: I'll correct myself because I feel it's somewhat necessary - amoxicillin is a broad range antibiotic. It primarily treats gram - positive, but it does have some affect on some gram-negative strains as well. Essentially, using amoxicillin would rule out any gram - positive infections, as well as potentially also treating the gram - negative one - but In my opinion this sounds a tad less effective - but I can't explain the science behind it so I'm not sure if it would help or not...

Tysm! I knew I was missing something and this really helped me understand the difference between the 2 medications! I ordered ciprofloxacin, yesterday, so hopefully it will be here soon.

CIR 84/FA084: Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture

Ignore the dosing instructions with the ciprofloxacin. It's really sold for humans to exploit the loophole allowing them to be sold OTC for fish/birds. I don't know how much effort they put into determining the dosage for fish since it's a sham anyway.

I highly recommend a hospital tank and dosing 1,000 mg per day per 10 gal with a large water change in between. I've based the dosing on studies done of ciprofloxacin and fish.

I kind of suspected that lol. I'm pretty sure some of the reviews are not talking about using ciprofloxacin on animals.
I cannot really find much info on ciprofloxacin online unfortunately, so again, sorry for all these questions.
I'll go with the dosage you recommended! Will a 50% water change be enough?
(I'm also curious to why you mentioned ciprofloxacin is safer to use than kanaplex in my other thread?)