Ammonia Up...again. (5 Months Without Cycle, I Feel Like Giving Up)

So...Its been about 4-5 months now trying to get my cycle started. I'll give as quick of an explanation of where I'm at and what's happened. Started out trying to fishless, fish food cycle a 20g..I had a little success but I got impatient and bought 7 baby cichlids and tried Tetra Safe Start. (TSS) After 2 or 3 failures, I read the FAQ here with Tetra themselves and managed to nail it just right and my cycle had started. Shortly after, I panicked about white poop and lost the cycle due to trying to treat for parasites and replacing the filter. Since then, Ive been through about 8 or more bottles of TSS...doing everything EXACT, every facet of it perfectly...no dice.

So I decided...I would move my fish to a brand new 29 gallon tank (They are slowly growing anyway, will be in 55 by end of year) and hook up a canister Fluval 305, along with my tetra 40 gallon HOB and see what happened with TSS+. I did this last week, and after 3 days of seeing the ammonia slowly rise to over 1ppm with no nitrites, (The one time I got TSS to work, nitrites appeared within 36 hours) I broke down and asked my friend for some biomax rings that had been cycled for 2+ idk how many years in his canister...BAM. 12 hours later, ammonia is 0. But no nitrites. So...2 days go by, I check the nitrates, and they're 40ppm+, ammonia still about zero. I'm on cloud nine, my first time doing a water change for nitrates only. So's few days go by, I checked my ammonia last night and it reads....*drum roll* .50-1.0pp.... It's going back up again...I did a 30% WC. Tonight, I checked it....50ppm again, barely less than last night.

What am I doing wrong? I've half a year reading on it. I'm devastated, I've poured blood, sweat, and tears into this. I even travel almost 40 minutes to a pet shop for (free) tap water, since mine is 40-80ppm nitrates outta the tap. I store the tap water in those 5g, blue primo water jugs for water cooler and use Tetra Aqua Safe. Could it be the jugs? I don't know, I'm tearing my hair out!!

I honestly can't think of anything at this point. No chloramines in the water, I feed a good single serving of food a day...is this normal for using pre-cycled media? I was so astonished to see the "instant cycle" people talk about. But what I'm confused about is 0 nitrites...like ever. NEVER. I have only ever seen them twice in my life. During the fishless cycle and when the TSS started working a long time ago. Any suggestions..?

 

What does your tap test at for amonia?
Keep doing small water changes daily till you see it drop to zero in the tank.
When you feed turn your filter off for 5min n try feed less see it that helps.
Is any food or debris building upbin the substrate?
Since adding the filter media from established filter has anything died?
Your test may be inaccurate.
Add plants to lower nitrates, start with 4-6 hours light. After a few weeks use a little plant food

 

Sorry you're having trouble. I'd try using Seachem Prime and Stability. You use them at the same time- according to Seachem one reason for slow cycle starts is that Ammonia hitting 1ppm+ actually harms bacteria as well as fish, so you use Prime to protect it during the cycling. One word of advice, shake the Stability like there's no tomorrow, same advice if you decide to continue with TSS+.

 

What does your tap test at for amonia?
Keep doing small water changes daily till you see it drop to zero in the tank.
When you feed turn your filter off for 5min n try feed less see it that helps.
Is any food or debris building upbin the substrate?
Since adding the filter media from established filter has anything died?
Your test may be inaccurate.
Add plants to lower nitrates, start with 4-6 hours light. After a few weeks use a little plant food

I can't keep doing water changes frequent enough to keep the ammonia like .25 or anything. It's too much driving with work. I have 45g worth of jugs, but the levels build up to 1-2ppm within 3 days...maybe 4 or 5 now that I moved to a bigger tank but to too that off, I've kept it under 2ppm (Mostly under 1ppm) for months at a time with the same filter with zero results. I really don't know why I'm also g at this point it's an anomaly. My test is accurate, 0 ammonia in my tap and 0 on the water I get. Their water WAS 0 nitrates but is now 5-10ppm for whatever reason, still better than mine. My tests are accurate.

Sorry you're having trouble. I'd try using Seachem Prime and Stability. You use them at the same time- according to Seachem one reason for slow cycle starts is that Ammonia hitting 1ppm+ actually harms bacteria as well as fish, so you use Prime to protect it during the cycling. One word of advice, shake the Stability like there's no tomorrow, same advice if you decide to continue with TSS+.

I don't know if I believe that. Is that true, I've heard up to 4ppm ammonia is safe for BB (At or above is harmful). If that's true, maybe that's it, but I've never heard that. I heard above 2 can be somewhat harmful but mine never goes above 2.

Don't mean to sound rude, just never heard above 1ppm being harmful to BB. If that is indeed true, that may be my problem.

 

I don't know if I believe that. Is that true, I've heard up to 4ppm ammonia is safe for BB (At or above is harmful). Of that's true maybe that's it, but I've never heard that. I heard above 2 can be somewhat harmful but mine never goes above 2.

Here's a quote from the Seachem Support staff on their forum-

Prime works to detoxify free ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. It puts them in a form that is much more bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria. Often times people don't realize that free ammonia will kill beneficial bacteria, thus it takes them a very long time to cycle their aquarium. Typically, once the ammonia has peaked at around 1-2ppm, we suggest to stop adding the additional ammonia. Especially if you are seeing the conversion to nitrite. Prime simply keeps the fish safe (if they are present) and allows the bacteria to more easily consume/convert the ammonia and nitrite.

-Seachem has a good reputation, and I'm not sure if they'd jeopardize it to sell a few more bottles of Prime.

 

Here's a quote from the Seachem Support staff on their forum-

Prime works to detoxify free ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. It puts them in a form that is much more bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria. Often times people don't realize that free ammonia will kill beneficial bacteria, thus it takes them a very long time to cycle their aquarium. Typically, once the ammonia has peaked at around 1-2ppm, we suggest to stop adding the additional ammonia. Especially if you are seeing the conversion to nitrite. Prime simply keeps the fish safe (if they are present) and allows the bacteria to more easily consume/convert the ammonia and nitrite.

-Seachem has a good reputation, and I'm not sure if they'd jeopardize it to sell a few more bottles of Prime.

Hmm..I actually came really close to buying that. But the TSS FAQ states prime interferes and since I got nitrite with TSS once, I stuck with it. Obviously something is just...wrong though. I can't believe it's this difficult to start a cycle. Do you think I'm overstocked? Have about 3 fish up to 2 inch. And 4 around an inch and a half to 1 inch. If this is true about BB. Why do fishless cycles have you dose up to 4ppm? Maybe I'll give it a go, I have nothing to lose at this point. I'm fed up. And to top it off, I'm moving cross state in a few months..

 

Hi,
TSS+ should be used only 24 hours after using Prime. The process takes 2 weeks to establish a cycle. On the other hand Stability can be used with Prime and water changes. Dosing is for 8 days.

 

Hi,
TSS+ should be used only 24 hours after using Prime. The process takes 2 weeks to establish a cycle. On the other hand Stability can be used with Prime and water changes. Dosing is for 8 days.

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm doing and have done numerous times with no cycle starting. This time, almost immediately after adding cycled biomax in with my brand new biomax, bio foam, and new canister filter, my ammonia dropped to zero, nitrite never rose, nitrates went up. And now my ammonia is back to going up by itself. Everything else staying the same. This was combined with TSS, or rather 3 days after adding TSS. It's been a week and a half now after adding TSS. One week after adding cycled media. There appears to be no answer for why my tank is "un-cycleable."

 

Is there a certain reason you're not using tap? What exactly are your tap readings?

EDIT: I just saw your tap reads 40+ Nitrates

 

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm doing and have done numerous times with no cycle starting. This time, almost immediately after adding cycled biomax in with my brand new biomax, bio foam, and new canister filter, my ammonia dropped to zero, nitrite never rose, nitrates went up. And now my ammonia is back to going up by itself. Everything else staying the same. This was combined with TSS, or rather 3 days after adding TSS. It's been a week and a half now after adding TSS. One week after adding cycled media. There appears to be no answer for why my tank is "un-cycleable."

Hmm strange. Are you using TSS+ or just TSS, which is only for maintenance purposes.

 

AquaBee

 

Hmm strange. Are you using TSS+ or just TSS, which is only for maintenance purposes.

I only had it work with TSS+ so I've only used that since. I've Dechlorinated and let it sit 24hr+, tried starting with .25 or even 0 ammonia. Air stone running the whole time, I've tried 80 degrees, 78, 75, 82. I've tried it like 10 or 15 times since it first worked. Following every instruction to a tee. Now...adding heavily cycled media...and seeing it instantly cycle then suddenly...'die off' over the course of a week...I feel completely defeated.

 

Is the water your adding dechlorinated? Bacteria won't survive in chlorinated water.

 

Is the water your adding dechlorinated? Bacteria won't survive in chlorinated water.

I'm just gonna pretend you didn't ask that...haha yes. 5ml of Tetra Aquasafe per 5 gallon. I dechlorinate separately in 5 gallon jugs. I even let it sit 48 hours after the fact for my new tank try. (24hr per TSS FAQ) And my WC water sits up to a week or two after dechlorination. I may switch to prime...or try something new.

 

Do you think your water testing kit might be a bad batch? I've heard of the API Master Test Kits getting ammonia readings constantly and come to find out it was the kit that was bugged.

 

If your showing nitrates like you say, I might suspect the kit like gala said. Nitrates tell me the B.B. is present.

What fish and how are they doing?

I’m a huge proponent of sponge filters for this. Add sponge, squirt TetraSafeStart + into the sponge, should cycle. Once tank is established, move the sponge into next tank since it seems you have 3 you need to cycle.

 

Hey mate. I feel your pain. About 3 years ago we had a year of cycling in fits and starts killing many fish along the way. I realise you're traveling for your water, but our problem was rainwater with 0º kH so our pH kept fluctuating way below 6 & killing our BB unbeknownst to us. We defused to start again in November & figured this out around Christmas after causing a minI cycle & killing another 10 fish. We're on it now & able to relax & enjoy. I truly hope you get to that place. It's worth it...

I presume your water source has decent kH & stable pH?

If so, then I'll let other who are experts offer advice. sfsamm & Nataku have been awesome & AllieSten is amazing. I hope maybe someone can help figure out what's going on

 

If I am not mistaken...you said 7 baby cichlids? In a 29 gallon that is overstocked. Do you know what kind of cichlids? Are there any other tank mates?

 

HI there. So I think you need a couple tweaks.

I would switch to Seachem Prime. Stop using Tetra Aquasafe. This will at least protect your fish. Also stop using TSS+ it isn’t working for you. It is nothing but wasting your money at this point. You need to switch bacteria. Either API QuickStart or Seachem Stability need to be tried instead. Really any other starter nitrifying bacteria will work.

Second if you have ammonia AND nitrates, that usually indicates an overstocked, yet cycled tank. Or it could indicate not enough vacuuming/cleaning. Something is increasing your ammonia, but you have some bacteria if there are nitrates. It isn’t unusual to never see Nitrites. It happens quite often actually.

How big are the cichlids currently? What do you have for filter media in both filters?

I would use Prime & Bottled Bacteria (Stability or QuickStart). Follow this formula, see if it works for you. It gives you a solid plan of attack, and sometimes that makes all the difference.

Ammonia + Nitrites = less than 1ppm add full tank volume of Prime & bottled bacteria. Recheck parameters in 24hrs.
Ammonia + Nitrites = 1ppm or greater do 50% water change, add full tank dose of Prime & bottled bacteria. Recheck parameters in 24hrs

Prime dose is 0.1ml or 2 drops per gallon. 1ml for 10g. Your dose is 2.9ml. It would be fine to dose it at 3ml (for the 29 gallon). You will add Prime to your tank everyday there is ammonia and/or nitrites. As an in tank treatment to protect your fish. It isn’t just a dechlorinator.

Your goal for water changes is to drop the ammonia and nitrites to 0.5ppm or below. You may need to change more than 50% to achieve that. Be sure to vacuum your tank with the water changes. This is strategic, too many water changes can slow down the process. So you need to only do them as directed by the cycling formula.

Also you never mentioned your pH. I suggest getting a gH/kH testing kit. This will sometimes diagnose cycling problems as Jenoli42 stated ending up being her issue. It was mine as well.

 

What filter are you using? Your currently in a 29 gallon tank with the juvenile cichlids correct? Do you have any other stock with them? What pH is the tank?

 

Wow, thank you to everyone for all the responses. I really appreciate all the help and tips I can get. This is gonna be long..I just hope y'all keep helping and the post doesn't die..

If I am not mistaken...you said 7 baby cichlids? In a 29 gallon that is overstocked. Do you know what kind of cichlids? Are there any other tank mates?

Really? So three 2 inch fish. Three 1 inch fish. And one 3/4ths of an inch fish is overstocked in a 29g? They are all African Cichlids, Mauna, no tank mates. I know they are definitely too big for 29 gallon at adult size. But based on other tanks I've seen cycled online with a way higher bio-load, I don't understand how it's overstocked. I considered that maybe that was the problem, which is why I moved them from the 20 to 29 to see of that would help, as well as have a massive amount of filter media with the 2 filters. If anyone has any input on this I'd appreciate it.

Do you think your water testing kit might be a bad batch? I've heard of the API Master Test Kits getting ammonia readings constantly and come to find out it was the kit that was bugged.

The API ammonia and nitrate test is definitely fine. I even bought a new ammobia kit and it's the same. The nitrite I wouldn't know, it's showed nitrite all g with clear signs of cycle before. But it's been months now and I have no way of testing it's accuracy. But I have 0 reason to believe they work fine as well as proof and evidence. I've thought of this as well.

If your showing nitrates like you say, I might suspect the kit like gala said. Nitrates tell me the B.B. is present.

What fish and how are they doing?

I’m a huge proponent of sponge filters for this. Add sponge, squirt TetraSafeStart + into the sponge, should cycle. Once tank is established, move the sponge into next tank since it seems you have 3 you need to cycle.

African Cichlids, they always seem fine. But Cichlids are hardy. I am looking to invest in one of those sponge pre-filters to put over the HOB intake. Or just a regular old air powered sponge filter. Maybe I'll try that.

HI there. So I think you need a couple tweaks.

I would switch to Seachem Prime. Stop using Tetra Aquasafe. This will at least protect your fish. Also stop using TSS+ it isn’t working for you. It is nothing but wasting your money at this point. You need to switch bacteria. Either API QuickStart or Seachem Stability need to be tried instead. Really any other starter nitrifying bacteria will work.

Second if you have ammonia AND nitrates, that usually indicates an overstocked, yet cycled tank. Or it could indicate not enough vacuuming/cleaning. Something is increasing your ammonia, but you have some bacteria if there are nitrates. It isn’t unusual to never see Nitrites. It happens quite often actually.

How big are the cichlids currently? What do you have for filter media in both filters?

I would use Prime & Bottled Bacteria (Stability or QuickStart). Follow this formula, see if it works for you. It gives you a solid plan of attack, and sometimes that makes all the difference.

Ammonia + Nitrites = less than 1ppm add full tank volume of Prime & bottled bacteria. Recheck parameters in 24hrs.
Ammonia + Nitrites = 1ppm or greater do 50% water change, add full tank dose of Prime & bottled bacteria. Recheck parameters in 24hrs

Prime dose is 0.1ml or 2 drops per gallon. 1ml for 10g. Your dose is 2.9ml. It would be fine to dose it at 3ml (for the 29 gallon). You will add Prime to your tank everyday there is ammonia and/or nitrites. As an in tank treatment to protect your fish. It isn’t just a dechlorinator.

Your goal for water changes is to drop the ammonia and nitrites to 0.5ppm or below. You may need to change more than 50% to achieve that. Be sure to vacuum your tank with the water changes. This is strategic, too many water changes can slow down the process. So you need to only do them as directed by the cycling formula.

Also you never mentioned your pH. I suggest getting a gH/kH testing kit. This will sometimes diagnose cycling problems as Jenoli42 stated ending up being her issue. It was mine as well.

I can not get nitrite, all I know is the ammonia shot to 0, nitrate to 40-80 after addition of cycled media. Now, nitrate stopped, ammonia rose, still no nitrite. Maybe my tank is overstocked? Like what do I have to do, put them in a 400g tank? For cichlid size, read my reply to Lunnietic. I just can't believe 7 small fish in a 29 gallon is overstocked...how do people put 15+ full grown Cichlids in a 55 then? Especially with all the filter media I have. I have a Tetra 40 gallon HOB. I did have a Tetra 1-3g internal filter, but took it out when moving to the 29g. I also have a Fluval 305 Canister, with:

Bottom tray: layer of pre-filter rings, bio-foam on top.

Middle tray: Biomax (replaced top of the new biomax I had in this one, with friends cycled biomax so it'd be smack dab in the middle)

Top tray: Biomax, polish pads on top.

I actually came up with this myself, then later found an obscure comment by Fluval detailing this EXACT set up.

My PH on API, reads max on low PH test. On the high PH test, it reads lowest but sorta looks like all the colors up to 8.2. So it's between 7.6 and 8.2. Which is why I like tap for Cichlids and still make the trip to get it for them and not R/O as a solution to my toxic house tap water. Consistent PH too. Also, I have never tested GH/KH? Maybe I should try that? But the tap water I use is from a fish store with hundreds of tanks.. So...do you think the ammonia is just too high for BB and killing it? Even though it are up my 1.0+ as soon as I out it in?

And let me get this straight, you suggest I keep it under .5 ammonia at all times to get the BB going along with adding prime every day? As well as try a new bacteria supplement? My family lfs suggest Microbacter or Fritz. I also vacuum around the ornaments and get the gravel. But only full gravel clean (take ornaments out) about once or twice a month. I've tried Microbacter 7 for almost a month and my ammonia just kept climbing to 2.0 and I'd keep WCing. Gave up after a month. Maybe Ill try your Instruction..

I'm sorry for all the information overload! You guys rock though...

Hey mate. I feel your pain. About 3 years ago we had a year of cycling in fits and starts killing many fish along the way. I realise you're traveling for your water, but our problem was rainwater with 0º kH so our pH kept fluctuating way below 6 & killing our BB unbeknownst to us. We defused to start again in November & figured this out around Christmas after causing a minI cycle & killing another 10 fish. We're on it now & able to relax & enjoy. I truly hope you get to that place. It's worth it...

I presume your water source has decent kH & stable pH?

If so, then I'll let other who are experts offer advice. sfsamm & Nataku have been awesome & AllieSten is amazing. I hope maybe someone can help figure out what's going on

My PH is stable, but I've never tested for gh/kh. But like I said, the water I use is tap that's hard and comes from a LFS that uses the same for their fish. Thanks for linking them here, maybe they can help.

I'm sorry for such a looong post, was at work all day. Thank you guys!

What filter are you using? Your currently in a 29 gallon tank with the juvenile cichlids correct? Do you have any other stock with them? What pH is the tank?

You can find all those answers above. If you have any suggestions I'd appreciate it.

My friend who has had fish years, says it'll never be perfect, and that if the fish look fine just let it be. He never tests his water..unless his fish look bad, which they never do.

 

Wow, thank you to everyone for all the responses. I really appreciate all the help and tips I can get. This is gonna be long..I just hope y'all keep helping and the post doesn't die..



Really? So three 2 inch fish. Three 1 inch fish. And one 3/4ths of an inch fish is overstocked in a 29g? They are all African Cichlids, Mauna, no tank mates. I know they are definitely too big for 29 gallon at adult size. But based on other tanks I've seen cycled online with a way higher bio-load, I don't understand how it's overstocked. I considered that maybe that was the problem, which is why I moved them from the 20 to 29 to see of that would help, as well as have a massive amount of filter media with the 2 filters. If anyone has any input on this I'd appreciate it.



The API ammonia and nitrate test is definitely fine. I even bought a new ammobia kit and it's the same. The nitrite I wouldn't know, it's showed nitrite all g with clear signs of cycle before. But it's been months now and I have no way of testing it's accuracy. But I have 0 reason to believe they work fine as well as proof and evidence. I've thought of this as well.



African Cichlids, they always seem fine. But Cichlids are hardy. I am looking to invest in one of those sponge pre-filters to put over the HOB intake. Or just a regular old air powered sponge filter. Maybe I'll try that.


I can not get nitrite, all I know is the ammonia shot to 0, nitrate to 40-80 after addition of cycled media. Now, nitrate stopped, ammonia rose, still no nitrite. Maybe my tank is overstocked? Like what do I have to do, put them in a 400g tank? For cichlid size, read my reply to Lunnietic. I just can't believe 7 small fish in a 29 gallon is overstocked...how do people put 15+ full grown Cichlids in a 55 then? Especially with all the filter media I have. I have a Tetra 40 gallon HOB. I did have a Tetra 1-3g internal filter, but took it out when moving to the 29g. I also have a Fluval 305 Canister, with:

Bottom tray: layer of pre-filter rings, bio-foam on top.

Middle tray: Biomax (replaced top of the new biomax I had in this one, with friends cycled biomax so it'd be smack dab in the middle)

Top tray: Biomax, polish pads on top.

I actually came up with this myself, then later found an obscure comment by Fluval detailing this EXACT set up.

My PH on API, reads max on low PH test. On the high PH test, it reads lowest but sorta looks like all the colors up to 8.2. So it's between 7.6 and 8.2. Which is why I like tap for Cichlids and still make the trip to get it for them and not R/O as a solution to my toxic house tap water. Consistent PH too. Also, I have never tested GH/KH? Maybe I should try that? But the tap water I use is from a fish store with hundreds of tanks.. So...do you think the ammonia is just too high for BB and killing it? Even though it are up my 1.0+ as soon as I out it in?

And let me get this straight, you suggest I keep it under .5 ammonia at all times to get the BB going along with adding prime every day? As well as try a new bacteria supplement? My family lfs suggest Microbacter or Fritz. I also vacuum around the ornaments and get the gravel. But only full gravel clean (take ornaments out) about once or twice a month. I've tried Microbacter 7 for almost a month and my ammonia just kept climbing to 2.0 and I'd keep WCing. Gave up after a month. Maybe Ill try your Instruction..

I'm sorry for all the information overload! You guys rock though...



My PH is stable, but I've never tested for gh/kh. But like I said, the water I use is tap that's hard and comes from a LFS that uses the same for their fish. Thanks for linking them here, maybe they can help.

I'm sorry for such a looong post, was at work all day. Thank you guys!

The reason to keep Ammonia and Nitrites below 1 ppm total, is because Prime is formulated to keep up to 1 ppm detoxified. Which means even though it is present, it will not negatively effect your fish, for the 24 hours Prime detoxifys it.

 

The reason to keep Ammonia and Nitrites below 1 ppm total, is because Prime is formulated to keep up to 1 ppm detoxified. Which means even though it is present, it will not negatively effect your fish, for the 24 hours Prime detoxifys it.

Ah okay, makes sense. I've never been interested in prime because I've seen TSS work and prime interferes with it. But at this point I might try it..I'll Google to see if there are any success stories, getting a fish-in cycle started using prime. Anyone have any success stories with prime?

 

I personally have cycled each of my 4 tanks using Prime and Stability, 3 of them fish in. 2 using established media with Prime and Stability.

 

I personally have cycled each of my 4 tanks using Prime and Stability, 3 of them fish in. 2 using established media with Prime and Stability.

That's 5.. Haha. Hmm, well how long did it take and how many water changes did you do? Just enough to keep it under 1.0ppm ammonia?

 

Lol, I'll clarify. 4 tanks cycled with Stability. 1 Fishless. 3 tanks cycled fish in, using Prime and Stability, 2 of those 3 were using established media.

Using established media, it took 5 - 6 weeks. Water changes probably every other day, the main problem is Nitrites, when using established media. For some reason, they don't repopulate like the bacteria that convert Ammonia. I was always moving up in tank size though, so that may be the reason for Nitrites being stubborn.

At any rate, you'll count on at least water changes every other day. When it gets closer, it'll go down to every 3 - 4 days. It sounds like you're already into your cycle, I can't see it lasting longer than a couple weeks. Main thing with using any Bacteria Supplements, is shake the bottle. When you think you've shaken it enough, shake it that much again. Once you do that, vigorously shake it that amount again. You want to break up any clumps, to allow the bacteria to seed correctly. I would dose half in the tank, half directly into the filter.

 

I also scratch cycle with prime and stability only.

I do not think you're over stocked at all, their cichlids and they are juvenile and they are kept differently than many fish.

I do think you are inhibiting your cycle somehow, figuring out what is causing it is the key. No you don't need Ammonia under .5 ppm. I'd quit the TSS it hasn't worked for you lately, if you have some hanging around dose it 48 hours after Prime. Prime can be active in the water up to 48 hours so no sense using it in 24. Also you cannot water change with TSS, and TSS messes up your test results showing Ammonia but in fact it's a bound Ammonia like when dosing prime. It can look scary high when you're using TSS but don't touch if for 10-14 days like indicated on instructions. No water changes nothing, it's doing its job.

Now I know you said you're following the instructions meaning you've already left it alone and not touches it after TSS. So....

Try Prime and Stability. You can dose Prime and increase the dosage up to 5x every 24 hrs (to be safe) and it binds both Ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte holding then so BB can still utilize them but they are much less harmful to fish. You can do this as long as you want but most people agree it has diminished returns after 10-14 days. You can judge how much prime to over dose by total Ammonia and nitrIte present if you have 1ppm Ammonia and 1 ppm nitrIte dose a 3x dose. Do not exceed 5x dose.

Stop touching your canister for any reason for a while, you should only have to clean it about every 3 months (probably less if it wasn't cichlids) unless you're clearing a big dust up from fish digging or adding plants and have super messy substrate.

Also because you have cichlids I would think you're using a sand substrate, I could be wrong and honestly info in your thread is kind of spread out and I don't feel like reading reading. If that's the case you really should not have to vacuum twice a month either just rearranging hardscape and removing what's kicked up should be fine. Can you post a photo of the tank? Some arrangements can easily trap detritus but completely honestly any consistent source of Ammonia will be developed into your cycle and be converted to nitrAte just the same as anything else. Often you know you have buildup as your nitrAtes are getting out of control. If you have gravel you probably should vacuum more frequently, during each water change at least the areas near intakes and low spots where detritus collects.

Had another thought.... You're on city water, many places have seasonal weather changes and add extra chlorine or chloramine... Often you can smell it when it happens so aging your water for 72 hours can disperse it better before adding it to the tank.

 

In Nov My tank cycled from ammonia straight to nitrates. Started out 0ppm for everything then ammonia came with my fish food (5 week fishless) then straight to nitrates. Nitrites never registered on my tests but I was only testing once a week during the cycle so I might have missed them.

Your tank doesn't sound over stocked to me but I'm a novice still. I think people are asking about stocking, water changes & vacuuming to figure out why your ammonia keeps spiking.

It's most likely lack of sufficient vacuuming of left over food or poo waste (or decaying plant material), overstocking, inadequate water changes when there's already ammonia... or maybe a dead fish stuck in your filter or under a decoration??? Sorry, no offense, just listing all the things we did wrong that caused spikes 3 years ago.

Once your ammonia is near 1ppm, I strongly urge 50% -75% water changes due to the toxicity to fish that products like prime can't help as much above that level as other people have said.

Then again I totally understand why you don't want to do big changes given you bring your water home & it's a pain. Once your BB stabilise it will just be normal 30% weekly changes. If you've been cycled then my experience of a minI crash took 8 days of +\-60% changes to come right again.

Last, unless your lfs is using v low kH water & testing theirs with oyster grit or something, I tend to agree with you...they wouldn't have much luck keeping fish alive with swinging pH from low kH.

 

I have a question. So you said your tank water is from your fish store. Have you tested it? To see if there is ammonia? You tested your tap water and found nitrates. Did you test your water source too? Are you making sure your water is temp compatible before adding to the tank?

I would stop dechlorinating the jugs. You need the dechlorinator to still be active when you add the water to the tank. Most dechlorinators don’t work longer than 24-48 hours. If there are higher than normal chloramines in your replacement water, it won’t become inactive with the normal dose of dechlorinator or with aging. In fact if it is chloramines (not chlorine), aging the water will cause it to leave ammonia behind. The chlorine will evaporate out, leaving the ammonia . (Chloramine is chlorine+ammonia)

I suggest using a double dose of Prime, instead of the regular dose. It is very safe to use the double dose routinely. It is recommended by Seachem in the instances of high chlorine/chloramine levels. This will rule out any chlorine/chloramine issues.

Your 29 gallon tank normal dose of Prime would be 2.9ml or 3ml to make it easy. So your double dose would be 6ml. Add it directly to your tank, after draining the amount of water you are changing. Wait a couple of minutes, then add your replacement water. Make sure that your filter is off during water changes also. Just to be sure that no chlorinated water makes its way into your filter.

For future reference as far as pH testing goes. The regular pH test only measures from 6.0-7.6 and the high pH test measures from 7.8-8.8. If the low test maxes out (darker than 7.6 should be) that means you are above 7.6. So you use the high pH test. If the high pH test registers 7.4 that means you are out of range of that test, and most likely 7.6 is your pH. 7.4 is the default reading for a pH that is less than 7.8. It didn’t do that for you, you registered 8.2. This means that your pH is 8.2. Not in between the 2.

I don’t think your pH or kH/gH is the issue. You have a good pH. I was just wondering if you had any pH issues at all. A low kH will make your pH unstable. If your pH would have been in the 6’s it would inhibit bacteria growth. But neither appears to be your issue.

As far as your canister goes, I would add sponges. Take the entire bottom tray and fill with sponges. Don’t remove the rings or any other media, just move it to accommodate the sponges. I would do 3 layers. Coarse, medium, & fine. Then middle tray all the rings, and top tray leave the same. This will give you more surface area for bacteria to grow on. I think the biofoam is the black medium foam sponge, you need coarse and fine to add to it. But it needs to be in the bottom tray.

I don’t believe that the 1ppm+ Ammonia is killing bacteria, it does however harm your fish. Anything over 0.25ppm of ammonia or nitrites will cause health issues in your fish. So by using Prime, it will protect them up to 1ppm for 24-48 hours. It will give you a little peace of mind to have some protection for them. I have cycled 3 tanks with Stability and Prime with no issues. I actually lost my cycle due to a chlorine flush from my water company, and used Prime & Stability a second time to cycle all 3 tanks, and had no issues at all. I have used double dose Prime since then, to protect my cycle. That was 9 months ago. I just followed the fish-in cycling formula I gave you in my other post. I have helped many people get their tanks cycled, using the same formula. It was given to me, by a very well respected member in here, and it works very very well.

What temp do you have your tank at? If you think your fish can tolerate it, I would turn the temp up to 84. This seems to help with the second half of the cycle. Getting those nitrites to reproduce. 84 specifically seems to be the magic temp. For whatever reason.

*Add double dose Prime everyday there is ammonia and/or nitrites.
*Add Stability everyday until you are cycled (or a similar bottled bacteria).
*Follow the cycling formula for water changes (use double dose Prime).
*Turn tank temp up to 84F.
*Add more sponges to your canister.

Be strategic, don’t mess with the tank more than necessary. Let it marinate.

Be sure that you are vacuuming your tank very well with the water changes to remove any detritus. Stir up the substrate to get any pockets of gunk.

Good luck!

 

Ok your water is clean and your fish are healthy? Your friend never checks his water and his fish are healthy? Did you buy your fish from lfs? If so what is he telling you to do? Everybody has different water. Also fish adapt. Yourfish may have been bred locally.

 

HI everyone! I'm Nancy a definite newbie to all of this. I am learning there is a lot more to fish care than meets the eye but my Beauty-a half moon male Betta-is my baby. I finally got the API test kit and almost had a heart attack. The tap water ALONE pH and Ammonia were crazy high!!!! No wonder my Beauty is struggling. I am still hoping I can save him though. I am trying!!

Currently he has a swollen belly, scale are NOT pine coning and up to last night very lethargic. Since treating for the pH and ammonia he is more active today. Not as much as before but better than yesterday. He is currently in his hospital tank. His primary tank needs a full water change. I didn't understand the need for bacteria so his tank has never cycled. This is being changed. I am getting Prime and QuickStart to get that started.

I only hope it's not too late for my beautiful Beauty.

 

Nancy C I would make a separate post and then write up what is going on. We can help you manage your poor guy.

 

Here's a quote from the Seachem Support staff on their forum-

Prime works to detoxify free ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. It puts them in a form that is much more bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria. Often times people don't realize that free ammonia will kill beneficial bacteria, thus it takes them a very long time to cycle their aquarium. Typically, once the ammonia has peaked at around 1-2ppm, we suggest to stop adding the additional ammonia. Especially if you are seeing the conversion to nitrite. Prime simply keeps the fish safe (if they are present) and allows the bacteria to more easily consume/convert the ammonia and nitrite.

-Seachem has a good reputation, and I'm not sure if they'd jeopardize it to sell a few more bottles of Prime.

Prime SAVED my fish and my sanity! I was loosing fish doing big water changes going through cycling. I reduced the water changes and used prime at 5 times the normal dose. (Per Seachems website) and deaths stopped. Cycle complete on the 26th day. Still keeping a watch on the #’s though. I’m keeping a CLOSE eye on the nitrates now. Planing to add pothos to the top of the tank in a few more weeks.

 

Lol, I'll clarify. 4 tanks cycled with Stability. 1 Fishless. 3 tanks cycled fish in, using Prime and Stability, 2 of those 3 were using established media.

Using established media, it took 5 - 6 weeks. Water changes probably every other day, the main problem is Nitrites, when using established media. For some reason, they don't repopulate like the bacteria that convert Ammonia. I was always moving up in tank size though, so that may be the reason for Nitrites being stubborn.

At any rate, you'll count on at least water changes every other day. When it gets closer, it'll go down to every 3 - 4 days. It sounds like you're already into your cycle, I can't see it lasting longer than a couple weeks. Main thing with using any Bacteria Supplements, is shake the bottle. When you think you've shaken it enough, shake it that much again. Once you do that, vigorously shake it that amount again. You want to break up any clumps, to allow the bacteria to seed correctly. I would dose half in the tank, half directly into the filter.

My cycle is dead. It's at 10-20ppm nitrates...BUT for some reason the LFS I get my water from, their water was 0 nitrates but now reads 10-20. I'm too g to refill today and will test it right away to see what it is. But as of right now, my cycle is dead. 1.0ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrates. I guess I will now try prime and stability and see what happens...

Ok your water is clean and your fish are healthy? Your friend never checks his water and his fish are healthy? Did you buy your fish from lfs? If so what is he telling you to do? Everybody has different water. Also fish adapt. Yourfish may have been bred locally.

I don't do anything he says really. He just says I worry about it too much and it's funny. Maybe I'm messing with tank too much? I mean like seriously 5 months no cycle? I pretty much have got burnt out and just try and keep ammonia under 1.0 ppm. Every now and then I'll try something drastic to make it work like TSS. But it just won't happen...I go early believe it never will. I will try prime and stability. Also keep in mind it's been o my 2 weeks with a canister, the last 5 no the have been only HOB. So we'll see if it will someday start with the canister. And yes my water is clean, fish look healthy. But I just know this is damaging then. I'm making a trip to get prime and stability today.

Had another thought.... You're on city water, many places have seasonal weather changes and add extra chlorine or chloramine... Often you can smell it when it happens so aging your water for 72 hours can disperse it better before adding it to the tank.

I've thought of this, the man at lfs where I get my water says he's called and checked and no chloramines but I'll do some research myself and am switching to prime tosay, maybe that'll help

I also scratch cycle with prime and stability only.

I do not think you're over stocked at all, their cichlids and they are juvenile and they are kept differently than many fish.

I do think you are inhibiting your cycle somehow, figuring out what is causing it is the key. No you don't need Ammonia under .5 ppm. I'd quit the TSS it hasn't worked for you lately, if you have some hanging around dose it 48 hours after Prime. Prime can be active in the water up to 48 hours so no sense using it in 24. Also you cannot water change with TSS, and TSS messes up your test results showing Ammonia but in fact it's a bound Ammonia like when dosing prime. It can look scary high when you're using TSS but don't touch if for 10-14 days like indicated on instructions. No water changes nothing, it's doing its job.

Now I know you said you're following the instructions meaning you've already left it alone and not touches it after TSS. So....

Try Prime and Stability. You can dose Prime and increase the dosage up to 5x every 24 hrs (to be safe) and it binds both Ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte holding then so BB can still utilize them but they are much less harmful to fish. You can do this as long as you want but most people agree it has diminished returns after 10-14 days. You can judge how much prime to over dose by total Ammonia and nitrIte present if you have 1ppm Ammonia and 1 ppm nitrIte dose a 3x dose. Do not exceed 5x dose.

Stop touching your canister for any reason for a while, you should only have to clean it about every 3 months (probably less if it wasn't cichlids) unless you're clearing a big dust up from fish digging or adding plants and have super messy substrate.

Also because you have cichlids I would think you're using a sand substrate, I could be wrong and honestly info in your thread is kind of spread out and I don't feel like reading reading. If that's the case you really should not have to vacuum twice a month either just rearranging hardscape and removing what's kicked up should be fine. Can you post a photo of the tank? Some arrangements can easily trap detritus but completely honestly any consistent source of Ammonia will be developed into your cycle and be converted to nitrAte just the same as anything else. Often you know you have buildup as your nitrAtes are getting out of control. If you have gravel you probably should vacuum more frequently, during each water change at least the areas near intakes and low spots where detritus collects.

I will switch to prime today. I have gravel, but vacuum VERY well. I am just about to head out to buy prime and stability...well see what happens. I'll post a photo of the tank as well. I have no detritus as I vacuum good. Have you had any success with prime or stability?

In Nov My tank cycled from ammonia straight to nitrates. Started out 0ppm for everything then ammonia came with my fish food (5 week fishless) then straight to nitrates. Nitrites never registered on my tests but I was only testing once a week during the cycle so I might have missed them.

Your tank doesn't sound over stocked to me but I'm a novice still. I think people are asking about stocking, water changes & vacuuming to figure out why your ammonia keeps spiking.

It's most likely lack of sufficient vacuuming of left over food or poo waste (or decaying plant material), overstocking, inadequate water changes when there's already ammonia... or maybe a dead fish stuck in your filter or under a decoration??? Sorry, no offense, just listing all the things we did wrong that caused spikes 3 years ago.

Once your ammonia is near 1ppm, I strongly urge 50% -75% water changes due to the toxicity to fish that products like prime can't help as much above that level as other people have said.

Then again I totally understand why you don't want to do big changes given you bring your water home & it's a pain. Once your BB stabilise it will just be normal 30% weekly changes. If you've been cycled then my experience of a minI crash took 8 days of +\-60% changes to come right again.

Last, unless your lfs is using v low kH water & testing theirs with oyster grit or something, I tend to agree with you...they wouldn't have much luck keeping fish alive with swinging pH from low kH.

The ammonia is rising from normal reasons, fish food/waste. There just simply is no cycle to speak of. I changed water everyday for about 3 or 4 months. But have started doing about every 3 days, because there just is 0 semblance of a cycle now or ever. I'm just..done. I will do everything you guys have suggested here, I really appreciate all the help...ill give an update if it works...Have you had success using prime or stability? Is your cycle...cycled yet?

I have a question. So you said your tank water is from your fish store. Have you tested it? To see if there is ammonia? You tested your tap water and found nitrates. Did you test your water source too? Are you making sure your water is temp compatible before adding to the tank?

I would stop dechlorinating the jugs. You need the dechlorinator to still be active when you add the water to the tank. Most dechlorinators don’t work longer than 24-48 hours. If there are higher than normal chloramines in your replacement water, it won’t become inactive with the normal dose of dechlorinator or with aging. In fact if it is chloramines (not chlorine), aging the water will cause it to leave ammonia behind. The chlorine will evaporate out, leaving the ammonia . (Chloramine is chlorine+ammonia)

I suggest using a double dose of Prime, instead of the regular dose. It is very safe to use the double dose routinely. It is recommended by Seachem in the instances of high chlorine/chloramine levels. This will rule out any chlorine/chloramine issues.

Your 29 gallon tank normal dose of Prime would be 2.9ml or 3ml to make it easy. So your double dose would be 6ml. Add it directly to your tank, after draining the amount of water you are changing. Wait a couple of minutes, then add your replacement water. Make sure that your filter is off during water changes also. Just to be sure that no chlorinated water makes its way into your filter.

For future reference as far as pH testing goes. The regular pH test only measures from 6.0-7.6 and the high pH test measures from 7.8-8.8. If the low test maxes out (darker than 7.6 should be) that means you are above 7.6. So you use the high pH test. If the high pH test registers 7.4 that means you are out of range of that test, and most likely 7.6 is your pH. 7.4 is the default reading for a pH that is less than 7.8. It didn’t do that for you, you registered 8.2. This means that your pH is 8.2. Not in between the 2.

I don’t think your pH or kH/gH is the issue. You have a good pH. I was just wondering if you had any pH issues at all. A low kH will make your pH unstable. If your pH would have been in the 6’s it would inhibit bacteria growth. But neither appears to be your issue.

As far as your canister goes, I would add sponges. Take the entire bottom tray and fill with sponges. Don’t remove the rings or any other media, just move it to accommodate the sponges. I would do 3 layers. Coarse, medium, & fine. Then middle tray all the rings, and top tray leave the same. This will give you more surface area for bacteria to grow on. I think the biofoam is the black medium foam sponge, you need coarse and fine to add to it. But it needs to be in the bottom tray.

I don’t believe that the 1ppm+ Ammonia is killing bacteria, it does however harm your fish. Anything over 0.25ppm of ammonia or nitrites will cause health issues in your fish. So by using Prime, it will protect them up to 1ppm for 24-48 hours. It will give you a little peace of mind to have some protection for them. I have cycled 3 tanks with Stability and Prime with no issues. I actually lost my cycle due to a chlorine flush from my water company, and used Prime & Stability a second time to cycle all 3 tanks, and had no issues at all. I have used double dose Prime since then, to protect my cycle. That was 9 months ago. I just followed the fish-in cycling formula I gave you in my other post. I have helped many people get their tanks cycled, using the same formula. It was given to me, by a very well respected member in here, and it works very very well.

What temp do you have your tank at? If you think your fish can tolerate it, I would turn the temp up to 84. This seems to help with the second half of the cycle. Getting those nitrites to reproduce. 84 specifically seems to be the magic temp. For whatever reason.

*Add double dose Prime everyday there is ammonia and/or nitrites.
*Add Stability everyday until you are cycled (or a similar bottled bacteria).
*Follow the cycling formula for water changes (use double dose Prime).
*Turn tank temp up to 84F.
*Add more sponges to your canister.

Be strategic, don’t mess with the tank more than necessary. Let it marinate.

Be sure that you are vacuuming your tank very well with the water changes to remove any detritus. Stir up the substrate to get any pockets of gunk.

Good luck!

I changed my temp from 80 to 75, during the time my tank was insta cycled (I heard this reduces Cichlids aggression) Maybe this killed the BB? A thought but I doubt it, given the history of no cycle.

But okay, you seem to be the most informed here so, here we go.

Yes, the water I get is 0 ammonia, it was 0 nitrates, but I'm refilling today and will check it again. My area is notorious for high nitrates(40-80ppm) They even had a warning and are getting sued for baby's dying from drinking it. The fish guy from my lfs (family owned) I go to for water is from out here. Were both in the worst spots for nitrates, and where the warnings were most severe. The lfs I go to and even the fish guy there, says lots of people come for their tap water. The fish guy lives out here, and had to have R/O at his house installed. I stick a 10 gallon heater I the jugs and a climate before W/C.

The only reason I pre dechlorinate is per TSS instructions. I'll stop doing it and check the Gilbert (The city I go to for water) water report for chloramines just incase. I also will switch to prime and stability and give your steps a go. I'm thinking maybe my jugs may be have ammonia and are creating the 20ppm nitrates when before their water was 0, but I think it is just their water has changed. I will start using prime only during W/C, and not pre dechlorinate. I'll follow your steps for W/C.

Also, my API PH test reads 7.6 as max on the low PH test and 7.4 as the LOW on the high PH test. So it's somewhere between 7.4 and 7.6 in my tank. As the next highest is 7.8 on the high PH test. So you're probably right. When I said it might be 8.2, it's just that the color on the high PH test looks funky, but closest to 7.4. I also have seashells in my tank as I want it higher for the cichlids. Do you think I need a kh/gh test?

As far as the canister filter, I do not want to change it. The bio foam takes up a whole tray. (Could barely fit the pre filter rings underneath and only 1 layer) But I like my setup and read a post from Fluval listing it as a good set up for maximum surface area for BB. If you really don't think so..convince me other wise..

As far as temp, I touched on it at the top of this reply. I..want to thank you greatly for your response. You had results with this method? How long did it take? You have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and rising nitrate? I will follow it to a tee. How often should I do water changes, like even though I will be dosing with prime, what should I try and keep the ammonia At? And do you think it'll be alright to leave the temp at 75? Do you swear by this method? In leaving right now (After a 14g water change with Tetra aquasafe) to go get prime, stability, and more water in my jugs. I'll let you know what I find when I test the water from the lfsI've tested it many times, but I'll test it as soon as I get home. Thank you so much!

If anyone has any experience with this method please let me know your results and experiences. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your time and help.

 

The other thing I was thinking was the jugs I use. They are the ones you use for water machines at home, the blue ones. They are plastic type 1. Do you think this may somehow be leaching I to the water and hurting my cycle? I thought it was safe since it's used for humans..but apparently number 2 is safer? All the containers made for aquarium water transfer, that I've seen are 'grade 2'. I was also wondering if bacteria is forming on the inside and that's why it shows nitrates when it used to be 0 nitrates from the lfs. I'm actually posting this from there right now, so I'll test it as soon as I get home for nitrates. But as far as leaching plastic and hurting BB, what does everyone think?

Edit: Tested my tap water from lfs. 5ppm nitrates, which I remember it being now. Thought it was 10-20ppm, but I remember now. Used to be 0 though. Anyways, sure no one is reading this. Thread is dead as my cycle! Hahah...:/ Thanks everyone for your help!

 

The jugs should not be contributing, if they are marked safe for human consumption then they are safe for aquarium use as well.
If your concerned about contaminates or build up from the water setting in the jugs leave them to dry completely between uses and fill with very hot water after emptying them to rinse.

 

The jugs should not be contributing, if they are marked safe for human consumption then they are safe for aquarium use as well.
If your concerned about contaminates or build up from the water setting in the jugs leave them to dry completely between uses and fill with very hot water after emptying them to rinse.

I'm not sure how hot you can get a fresh water plastic container before it starts leaching chemicals.

 

I'm not sure how hot you can get a fresh water plastic container before it starts leaching chemicals.

I'm not implying to pour boiling water in them, but most any hot tap water.... And anything from a normal tap isn't going to be hot enough to cause food grade plastic to leach chemicals. Now that's not to say you cannot crank the heat up on hot water heaters enough to cause burns... But heat like that is unnecessary and still unlikely to cause food grade plastics to leach chemicals.

 

I'm not sure how hot you can get a fresh water plastic container before it starts leaching chemicals.

I'm not implying to pour boiling water in them, but most any hot tap water.... And anything from a normal tap isn't going to be hot enough to cause food grade plastic to leach chemicals. Now that's not to say you cannot crank the heat up on hot water heaters enough to cause burns... But heat like that is unnecessary and still unlikely to cause food grade plastics to leach chemicals.

I've just noticed that the containers from pet stores are plastic number 2. I've also read that 2,4, and 5 grade plastics leach the least. As far as you telling me to pour hot water in them, that is a bad idea. The number 1 cause of leaching for plastic grade 1, is heat..so I don't think that's a good idea. It's also graded for 1 time use (Think plastic water bottles) while 2 is graded for multiple time use. So..I'm confused as to why grade 1 is used for primo water jugs for drinking water..if it's graded for 1 time use. I'm just a little suspicious it's killing my BB..I guess we'll see when I move and have tap water that isn't chalk full of nitrates and don't need to fill jugs...

 

I thought I'd saw you state it was #2 plastic containers above, if it's in fact #1 then yes that is a different story, my bad!