Ammonia Drama

HI everyone, I know this thread is posted quite a bit but just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I purchased a 100L AquaOne Aquarium, my substrate is black sand and it has a stock top filter. I added additional filter media from my 10 year old 200L aquarium as well as Matrix and added a bottle over a week period of API QuickStart to give the new filter a boost so I assumed my tank would be good to go and stocked it.

I unfortunately lost an Electric Blue Ram a few days after adding it, took my water to be tested and my ammonia reading was at 1.0ppm. I purchased AquaOne Ammonia Neutraliser as by that stage I was just using Blue Planet Water Conditioner, reduced my feeding to once every two days and did between a 50 - 75% water change about 10 hours after feeding, that was 2 weeks ago.

My Ammonia started dropping from 1.0ppm to 0.50ppm then to 0.25ppm, but rises back to 0.50ppm when I test again 10 hours after feeding I stopped using the Ammonia Neutraliser and instead this week I purchased Seachem Prime as saw everyone recommending it with these issues and my Ammonia level is staying the same, fluctuating between 0.25ppm and 0.50ppm.. I also bought Nutrafin Cycle in hopes of adding enough beneficial bacteria to kill it as was worried my established filter media just wasn't working.

I've lost about 6 fish now and a couple of my guppies aren't looking healthy as well as my live plants, their leaves are turning kind of brown and are shriveling.. I don't use plant food but am thinking of buying some. Everyone else seems to be doing fine, eating well, active.

Am I doing the correct things or should I change my plan of attack? I really don't want to lose anyone else and wanted to eventually when my tank is stable add some friends for my BoesmanI Rainbow as his buddies died..

Specs are;

PH: 6.8
Temperature: 26
Ammonia: 0.50ppm at the moment
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

I'm unsure of my water hardness but will be purchasing a kit today or tomorrow to test.

 

Hello. Welcome to fishlore!
I’m sorry you’re losing fish. When you do your water change dose prime for the amount of water in the tank. Do a water change ASAP. You’re not cycled yet. But we’ll all help you get there.

 

I purchased as saw everyone recommending it with these issues and my Ammonia level is staying the same, fluctuating between 0.25ppm and 0.50ppm.

Prime detoxifies ammonia (NH3) by temporarily (24-48 hours) converting it to ammonium (NH4+). The vast majority of liquid/strip tests, including those by API, don't distinguish between ammonia and ammonium and instead measure their combined concentration. The 0.25-0.50 ppm that you're seeing is likely the ammonium.

my , their leaves are turning kind of brown and are shriveling.. I don't use plant food but am thinking of buying some. Everyone else seems to be doing fine, eating well, active.

Plants can be very finnicky. Quite often they "melt" when transplanted from one aquarium to another, or if they're initially grown emersed (leaves out of the water) and then submersed (leaves under the water) submersed. The plant will shed its older leaves and grow new leaves that are adapted to the water conditions.

Fertilisers are a good idea. Generally what you'll need are micronutrients (e.g. Seachem Flourish Comprehensive) and macronutrients (Seachem Nitrogen, Phosphate and Potassium). Some people use Seachem Excel as well to provide a bit of carbon if they don't wish to use CO2 injection, but it also has the benefit of being an algaecide.

 

Thanks so much for your replies. I did a water change a couple days ago (50% and added Seachem Prime + Nutrafin Cycle for the amount of water in my tank) should I perhaps wait until tomorrow to see if my ammonia is stable and not do a water change tonight? Today I added more Nutrafin Cycle as I read Seachem Prime can kill the beneficial bacteria when they're added together.

My plants were very happy at first, producing little lines of oxygen bubbles from each plant but overnight seemed to diminish (particularly my lace ferns/water sprites).. Thanks for the info! Hopefully they'll sprout like new again and I'll purchase some Seachem Flourish and Seachem Excel.

 

It's been a couple days and more of my fish have died, Ammonia still at 0.50ppm.. really not sure what to do, do I just keep doing water changes every 2 days?

 

It's been a couple days and more of my fish have died, Ammonia still at 0.50ppm.. really not sure what to do, do I just keep doing water changes every 2 days?

I would aI'm for daily if possible. It might be the case of "done damage" if the fish were exposed to 1 ppm of ammonia for a few days: NH3 is quite toxic and the stress of exposure may have taken its toll on more vulnerable fish.

As for why your bacteria is not performing as expected in eliminating the residual ammonia. There are two reasons: (1) different filter media serve different purposes, and generally beneficial bacteria density is highest on those media with high porosity/surface area; (2) bacteria do adjust to particular conditions over time, if your new tank's water (pH, dissolved oxygen, temperature) is substantially different to your old tank's water, the bacteria might be acclimating.

 

I might have run the tank fishless for a few weeks before adding the fish. Ive been using DrTim's Aquatics Ammonium Chloride Solution to build up bacteria in the tank before I add the fish. We'll see how well it works in a few weeks when I get my fish.

 

I would aI'm for daily if possible. It might be the case of "done damage" if the fish were exposed to 1 ppm of ammonia for a few days: NH3 is quite toxic and the stress of exposure may have taken its toll on more vulnerable fish.

Thanks for your help, how much % do you think I should be changing daily?

I never knew parameters mattered to established filter media, thanks for that tip. I’ve seen so many people just add fish the next day when using established media and my parameters were fine until the fish were added. Perhaps overloaded too quickly?

 

Thanks for your help, how much % do you think I should be changing daily?

I never knew parameters mattered to established filter media, thanks for that tip. I’ve seen so many people just add fish the next day when using established media and my parameters were fine until the fish were added. Perhaps overloaded too quickly?

Yeah maybe you did overload to tank. I've heard from a few places that you might wanna add fish 2 or 3 batches so you don't get an ammonia spike. I don't know though I don't even have fish yet. So take my advise with a grain of salt.

 

Soooo.. I feel like the biggest dumby right now. I couldn't understand why my tank wasn't working as had done everything right.. or so I thought.

I read the instruction manual just to ensure everything was working correctly, when I had noticed that I've gone and set up my filter completely wrong. I put the sponge layer on top of the carbon filter layer, instead of the opposite way around.. I'm hoping this changed the outcome of my tank, I'll test it in a couple days and see if that was the culprit.

 

Soooo.. I feel like the biggest dumby right now. I couldn't understand why my tank wasn't working as had done everything right.. or so I thought.

I read the instruction manual just to ensure everything was working correctly, when I had noticed that I've gone and set up my filter completely wrong. I put the sponge layer on top of the carbon filter layer, instead of the opposite way around.. I'm hoping this changed the outcome of my tank, I'll test it in a couple days and see if that was the culprit.

We will be hoping with you. Think positive.

 

I put the sponge layer on top of the carbon filter layer, instead of the opposite way around.

I don't think it would've affected the outcome much. There's some element of arbitrariness in how manufacturers recommend the ordering of their filter media. But generally a fine floss/sponge is the first media that meets the water: it's a mechanical filter that traps particulate matter (bits of food, plants, etc.). This is to prevent porous filter media down the line (which accommodates the majority of beneficial bacteria) from clogging up with debris.

 

I just think the sponge layer wasn't catching enough as my water has always been a bit cloudy.. we'll see what happens I guess! Fingers crossed.

 

I've tested my water this morning, lo and behold my ammonia is 0! Hoping it stays the same but it's never been at 0 since before fixing my filter.

 

I've tested my water this morning, lo and behold my ammonia is 0! Hoping it stays the same but it's never been at 0 since before fixing my filter.

Yay! Nitrites?

 

I've just fed them so I'll wait to test it, I assume after feeding it would give an incorrect reading, like it does with ammonia?

 

I've just fed them so I'll wait to test it, I assume after feeding it would give an incorrect reading, like it does with ammonia?

No need to wait. Feeding won't give an incorrect reading for either ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think feeding affects ammonia measurement?

 

I've just tested and Nitrite is at 0ppm, Nitrate is at 5.0ppm if it gets any higher I'll do a water change.

My LFS told me to never test after I've just fed?.. I've also read a few articles stating the same hypothesis so thought I'd always wait a bit.

 

My LFS told me to never test after I've just fed?.. I've also read a few articles stating the same hypothesis so thought I'd always wait a bit.

Short answer: I think it's fair to say that it's safe to disregard that advice. I'd always be a bit skeptical about information provided by LFS and internet articles because they're so rarely fact-checked.

Long answer: I think their logic is that when fish eat, their metabolism increases, and when their metabolism increases, they excrete more ammonia.

But this doesn't affect the testing of ammonia because (1) daily excretion of ammonia in an appropriately stocked aquarium is generally quite low, at a level that is otherwise undetectable by hobby test kits; (2) when we test for ammonia, we test for the ammonia that has accumulated up until that stage in time, and not for ammonia that is/will be produced; (3) I've never read of it here, in other aquarium forums, and API doesn't suggest it in their instructions. Plenty of people take a sample of tank water for ammonia testing after they've just added some fish food as part of their daily routine. I've never heard of any incorrect readings because of it.

 

Ah okay, thank you for your input.

I woke up this morning and tested everything, my readings were;

Ph: 6.8
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0.25ppm
Nitrate: 5.0ppm

I’ve never had a reading of nitrite before, does this mean my tank is finally cycling? I’m about to do a 50% water change and add my seachem prime to ensure no fish loss.

 

It definitely looks like the cycle is progressing: ammonia being converted to nitrite, which in turn is being converted to nitrate.

But I think your tank was cycling (if slowly) more-or-less right from the beginning as you mentioned ammonia was dropping.

Ammonia generally drops only for three reasons (1) it's being taken up by plants; (2) it's being converted by beneficial bacteria into nitrite; (3) it's being diluted by water changes.

Assuming your tank isn't heavily planted, I'd say (2) is the likely reason. As for why you weren't getting a nitrite/nitrate reading earlier, some beneficial bacteria (e.g. Nitrosomonas, the most common ammonia-oxidising bacteria in aquariums) both nitrify (convert ammonia to nitrite and/or nitrite to nitrate) and denitrify (convert nitrate to nitrite then to nitrogen gas). This is in addition to other bacteria found in small amounts in aquariums that only denitrify (e.g. Pseudomonas)

Because you were using seeded media, it might be the case that you weren't detecting nitrite/nitrate (even though your ammonia was falling) as the small amounts of these compounds were more-or-less immediately denitrified to nitrogen gas. You might now be detecting nitrite/nitrate as the rate of nitrification is outpacing denitrification, which is generally the normal behaviour in aquariums.

 

My tank is actually quite heavily planted but the plants don’t seem to be doing too well yet, I’ve been using Flourish Excel so hoping they pick up a bit, but I’ve been removing any decaying litter/leaves.

Would this be a bad thing or good thing if I’m starting to see nitrite readings? I know nitrite is bad but perhaps it means my cycling is picking up its pace? Definitely seems like it was very slowly cycling before. I had never had any nitrite or nitrate readings last week.

I also removed the white noodle filter media and matrix from my filter as when fixing the media over the lid wouldn’t close with all of it. My tank never came with the matrix or noodles I just added it from my established tank.. hoping the good bacteria would have already seeped into the sponge and carbon filter layer?

Also, thanks so much for your help I really appreciate it.

 

Would this be a bad thing or good thing if I’m starting to see nitrite readings? I know nitrite is bad but perhaps it means my cycling is picking up its pace? Definitely seems like it was very slowly cycling before. I had never had any nitrite or nitrate readings last week.

It's definitely a good thing! It shows that your cycle got a kick in the pants and is starting to move along.

I just added it from my established tank.. hoping the good bacteria would have already seeped into the sponge and carbon filter layer?

That shouldn't pose any issues! The filters from the established tank should have plenty of bacteria on it.

My tank is actually quite heavily planted but the plants don’t seem to be doing too well yet, I’ve been using so hoping they pick up a bit, but I’ve been removing any decaying litter/leaves.

Flourish Excel by itself will only do a little. Growing plants can be somewhat complex. They all require a full suite of micronutrients (iron, copper, magnesium, calcium, etc.) and macronutrients (nitrogen, phosphate and potassium). Excel is supposed to act as a substitute source of carbon (usually people inject CO2 directly into their tanks), but some say it's only between 20-40% as effective as CO2. In addition, plants need light of an appropriate intensity.

Again, plants need all of these things in order to grow: Excel will only supply the carbon requirement.

I won't give into much detail here since this post might turn into a 5,000 word essay.ead:A good place to start might be Googling "EI dosing guide". Estimate Index (EI) is a simple way of dosing plant fertilisers in aquariums, and it scales well depending on the intensity of your light and how heavily planted you are.

 

Awesome! Hopefully my tank will be situated soon so I can add more buddies for my fish, probably one at a time so I don't overdo anything. Fingers crossed!

I think I'll just replace my plants once they look yucky if it's that much effort. I've always wanted a heavily planted tank but I of course want the plants to look healthy and attractive.

Should I just keep doing water changes every 2nd day, dosing the water with Seachem Prime?

 

Once a fish has ammonia or nitrite poisoning, it may never be healthy, or eventually die.
fact.....

 

What? None of them have ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

 

I think I'll just replace my plants once they look yucky if it's that much effort. I've always wanted a heavily planted tank but I of course want the plants to look healthy and attractive.

In all honesty, the learning curve (like the entire hobby) for aquatic plants is a little steep. But the ongoing maintenance/routine of dosing ferts is pretty minimal. It takes me all of 2 seconds to do every morning. You needn't inject CO2 either: there's plenty of people with minimalist/low-maintenance planted tank who dose ferts (at about 1/4 of the doses recommended in the EI guide) with Excel and allow ambient CO2 to diffuse from the air into the aquarium. There won't be fantastical, amazing lush green growth, but low maintenance plants (e.g. Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, Amazon Swords) remain healthy and grow slowly.

Should I just keep doing water changes every 2nd day, dosing the water with ?

This is a good idea!

 

You dose your fertiliser every day? I’ve honestly just been adding it whenever I do a water change every 2nd day, should I change to every day?

My parameters this morning were;

PH: 6.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5ppm

 

You dose your fertiliser every day? I’ve honestly just been adding it whenever I do a water change every 2nd day, should I change to every day?

If you mean Excel, then it should be an everyday thing.

With the micronutrient and macronutrient fertilisers, people using the EI dosing method generally spread them out over the week, dosing a little each day, to reach particular ppm targets by the end of the week. Then a large-ish water change (50%) at the end of the week removes some excess accumulated nutrients.

But again, dosing Excel by itself won't do much. You'll need a full suite of micro and macro nutrients. They're not especially expensive if you buy the dry powder powder form.