Am I Over Medicating? Can't Figure Out Flashing Cause!

Hello,

I have a planted 75 gallon with 6x Irian rainbows, and 12 tiger barbs. Tank is fully cycled with 0/0/5 stats. I perform a 30% water change each week, and sometimes a 20% mid week if I have time. Tank temp is a consistent 76.5* degrees.

I have been trying to treat for an unknown cause of Flashing that my Tiger Barbs seemed to have developed 1 week since going into the tank.

The rainbows have not shown any sign of illness... no flashing, just boisterous rainbow fish behavior.

I can catch 1 or 2 of the tiger barbs flashing against plants and sometimes the sand 1 or 2 times every time I sit down and watch the tank (I usually sit and observe my tank several times a day, love this darn thing)... Usually they are either swimming about or hanging out on one side of the tank. Its about 5 of the 12 tigers that show this flashing behavior. Though they seem to "hang out" more than they are swimming around, but if I enter the room they usually start to swim around.

Everyone eats when its feeding time.

What I have tried:
-26 days of Paraguard
-5 days of general cure
-7 days of Prazi-pro
-Day 2 of 7 days of medicated brine shrimp with Metroplex/garlic guard/focus

I have a bottle of Kordons rid ich+ as a stand by as I'd like to use a "Formalin" based compound as a pure last resort.

The frequency of the flashing is random, its more some days less on others. 2 Tigers have been bloated for about 2 weeks, but not pine coning, and are generally eating well.

At this point I'm wondering what am I treating for? The flashing behavior hasnt changed through all the medicating... in-fact I'm wondering if all the medicating is causing this behavior at this point.

The LFS suggested to hit it with a few days of Rid Ich as a last resort as well, and observe the flashing behavior and adjust.

Please, I'm nearly at my wits end trying to diagnose and treat at the moment, so any and all suggestions would be a god send. I just want these fish to get healthy so I can start quarantining and bringing in new stock. I've just put all that on hold while the main tank is "sick".

Thank you.

 

Theres other reasons they may flash. If they’re all eating and healthy otherwise, I’d stop treating. If it were Ich, you would’ve seen it by now.

 

And that's where I am starting to lean at the moment is just to cease meds and see what happens. My problem is I don't have a point of reference with tiger barbs as what flashing is normal/occasional (as I mentioned prior I can always catch a tiger or two flashing when I'm sitting in front of the tank) and what's an indicator of there something actually being wrong. My main experience has been housing multiple betta tanks and I've never seen this phenomena in any fish until I got these tigers, The idea of a fish "itching" itself is totally new to me.

The LFS Feels that I've extensively nuked the tank, and that Ich/Velvet etc would have presented itself since ceasing the paraguard while I've been treating with general cure/prazI over the last 14 days (as you have pointed out).

So should I just throw some carbon in there and observe? If it continues after ceasing and cleaning the water with carbon would you be concerned unless other symptoms presented?

 

Are they possibly growing rapidly? If that's the case the skin and scales may be a little sensitive and they may just simply be itchy.

 

Are they possibly growing rapidly? If that's the case the skin and scales may be a little sensitive and they may just simply be itchy.

I’m not entirely sure that would be a thing, but weirder things have happened, so it’s a possibly! Basically, what it comes down to, is that something is bothering their scales/slimecoat. Which could be many things.

 

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So should I just throw some carbon in there and observe? If it continues after ceasing and cleaning the water with carbon would you be concerned unless other symptoms presented?[/QUOTE]

I'd do a substantial water change, add carbon, and observe for a few days. If they're still flashing maybe try Melafix or some aquarium salts to help stimulate the slime coat. You've covered the bases so far with meds. I'd think they could stand a wee break at the moment. Sometimes the results become evident after a round of treatment has been completed...not always during.

 

I do have some melafix on hand and some aquarium salts. I'm a little off put by putting salt in the water due to my plants, should I do half the recommended salt than what's stated on the box?

I do use prime as a conditioner, and I use python for changes, I dose ~80 to 100 gallons worth of prime on 75 gallons. I thought prime promoted slimecoat?

I guess ill give the carbon and a water change a shot, then ill follow up with light salt and melafix and go from there.

My biggest fear is them continuing to flash for an unknown reason, and that I may have not possibly eradicated some parasite/problem that may come back in the future if that makes sense.

 

There are parasites that prazI and metro don't kill. Yoube basically already doubled up on both of those. It's possible you may need to use a different one like levamisole or fenbendazole. But for now I'd say give their little bodies a break from the meds and let them recoup in some nice clean water.

 

There are parasites that prazI and metro don't kill. Yoube basically already doubled up on both of those. It's possible you may need to use a different one like levamisole or fenbendazole. But for now I'd say give their little bodies a break from the meds and let them recoup in some nice clean water.

Thank you so much for all of your recommendations. I am going to try your suggestions and see how that goes and I will report back.

You mentioned Levamisole and Fenbendazole for parasites. Should I shoot for the Levamisole or Febendazole if the flashing continues for a week or two after the "clean water" attempt. I do have two pretty bloated tigers and I have seen mixed normal/white string feces occasionally from them. (They also flash along with other tigers that have normal feces).

Is there a point to try Kordon Rid Ich+ after this clean water attempt as well? Formalin, and the two other meds you mentioned are literally the only other medications I haven't tried on these guys (according to the list from the OP).

I'm just trying to develop a contingency plan if the Carbon clean out + Melafix slimecoat attempt doesn't relieve the issue.

AGAIN THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!!

 

Well you've dosed for the usual parasites with the general cure (which is prazI and metro), then you dosed those meds separately. When you treated with Paraguard did you raise the temperature at all? I've successfully treated ick with Paraguard and heat (86° for 10 days). While treating ick you have to do water changes and vacuum the gravel well. But you haven't mentioned seeing the "white spots". So you could be dealing with a different internal parasite. Give them some time to rest and heal from the treatments they've had and watch them closely to see if any other symptoms manifest. I'd hold off on the salt for now and just go with the Melafix for a few days. Maybe with a new symptom we could figure out which med would be best. Hopefully, you won't see anymore flashing and you've taken care of the issue. Like I said sometimes the fish don't seem to improve until days after the treatments have ended. Keep us updated on what you see and good luck!

 

Well you've dosed for the usual parasites with the general cure (which is prazI and metro), then you dosed those meds separately. When you treated with Paraguard did you raise the temperature at all? I've successfully treated ick with Paraguard and heat (86° for 10 days). While treating ick you have to do water changes and vacuum the gravel well. But you haven't mentioned seeing the "white spots". So you could be dealing with a different internal parasite. Give them some time to rest and heal from the treatments they've had and watch them closely to see if any other symptoms manifest. I'd hold off on the salt for now and just go with the Melafix for a few days. Maybe with a new symptom we could figure out which med would be best. Hopefully, you won't see anymore flashing and you've taken care of the issue. Like I said sometimes the fish don't seem to improve until days after the treatments have ended. Keep us updated on what you see and good luck!

You are correct, I have seen 0 physical manifestations of the typical Ich/Velvet on these fish. Just occasional mixed white string/normal feces from a select few of the tiger barbs and the noted flashing.

I tried turning the temp and adding additional aeration during the paraguard treatment for about 72 hours (2 degrees a day), by the time I got to 80 degrees they were lethargic and breathing wayyy to fast even with added airstones required for the tank. So I backed it down and they resumed normal behavior. Was deathly afraid of them incurring additional stress during the paraguard dosing.

Also, I have a mixed sand/gravel (gravel on left and right, and the center is sand), I do a very thorough job gravel vacing and skimming the top of the sand as well as doing a gas release with my fingers in the sand. With every water change. I've become religious about it during treatment.

I will keep this thread updated with my results. I'm just going to finish this medicated food off that I have (about 2 days left from the batch I created) and then do a fresh water change mid-week with some carbon, observe behavior, and then remove the carbon and try a few days with melafix.

Thanks again for your suggestions! I will report back.

 

Short answer to your question : YES.

 

Update:

Busy week, I have not had a chance to change their water from the last PrazI dose, they are due for their 7 day water change on Sunday, I plan on running Carbon with a 50% water change on Sunday and see how the fish recover over the coming week and then trying some Melafix as suggested earlier in the thread.

I have included some photos of my Tiger barbs (in hopes that someone may see something I don't), 1 in particular that is very "bloated" and or "big", unsure if this is just a loaded egg bearing female or if it has something else going on with it. All fish are eating, and the symptoms have remained relatively unchanged, just the flashing of the tigers when I observe them.

Any suggestions about the Bloat if this is normal/looks peculiar/course of action would be appreciated.

They are only fed 1x a day.

First couple photos are of the bloated tiger (I have one other one that is about like this). Last couple are just them in a group hanging out in the corner. 2nd to last photo I caught one flashing off the cave.









PS Please excuse the dirty glass and dirty looking substraight, I'm having a brown diatom outbreak since the end of the paraguard dosage as stated in the original post. Every week glass gravel and sand are thoroughly vacd and cleaned.

 

Well...from the pictures I don't think the female looks any different from a normal female loaded with eggs.
Good plan to do the water change, carbon, and observation. Give them some time in clean un-medicated water and see what happens.

 

Update

Fish have seemed to have perked up after the water change and carbon. Since Sunday I have still seen the tigers flashing, I even caught 2 of the rainbows doing a quick gill scratch on the plants. I saw 2 tigers doing shimmys then darting around and doing flashes against the plants. I'm unsure if things have changed or not. Something inside me wants to say they are indeed flashing less when I observed them as compared to a few days ago (But this may be confirmation bias).

I turned out all of the lights and did a flash lighting on the fish. A few look overly "shiny/slimy" (tiger barbs), but no typical rusting like what I have seen on google (double checking for velvet). Still no white bumps near gills or anywhere on fins.

While I was doing the flashlight test I noticed how much floating particulates there was in the water. Almost a white haze that I can't see when there's normal and tank light. (Was shocked honestly).

Did a 15% water change, changed my canister to run a medium sponge in place of the coarse sponges position, and packed the rest of the basket with poly fill (and before you ask this is aquarium branded poly with no additives), and did a sand/gravel skimming.

I'm wondering if the haze/particulates are what was irritating them to scratch their gills....

Ill report back as I find out more.

 

I can't stand any particles in my tank. Therefore I'm wayyyyy over filtered. The one thing I added that did the trick for me was an All Ponds Solution Filter Booster. Look into it if the particles don't clear up (and bothers you).
The fish still flashing after all the meds is baffling. It's possible that their gills and possibly skin is irritated from all that. I'd think excessive slime could be itchy as well though I'm not sure about that. At least they don't appear to be in imminent danger of dying so you have time to figure this out. Unless their flashing gets a lot worse with just clean water, give them a week or so before adding anything else. And keep updating.

 

Things are unchanged, no physical manifestations other than the tiger barbs flashing on plants. From the three times I observed the tank today I caught about 2 doing quick flashes off of plants, and 1 did a pretty vigorous flashing off of one of the Anubius leaves (about 3 times) and then resumed his business.

There isn't really any large particles floating around, its just very fine almost like sand grains floating around, its very pronounced when I turn off the lights and use a spot flash light. I'm really wondering if the brown diatoms (I'm also getting growth in clumps on my sand practically overnight) and the floating matter is irritating the barbs?

My filter is a Eheim Pro 4+ 350 (277 GPH rated). The plants and the filter are keeping the ammonia and nitrite etc in check (0). Wondering if the just barely a 4x an hour turn over is honestly enough to mechanically filter the tank. Debating possibly picking up a second one.

All in all, frustrated at the moment, will continue to observe and report.

Thank you for your time and suggestions thus far.

 

I still think they just need a break from the meds and may be recovering from the effects. But I came across this thread on another forum that sounds similar to what you're dealing with.

The consensus is that there was an overuse of meds and the fish were irritated. Obviously, there COULD be something else going on but like I said before it doesn't appear to be life threatening at the moment ..just uncomfortable. I don't think it would be something requiring an antibiotic unless an infection of some sort set in while the fish were infected with whatever originally caused the flashing. Unfortunately it's a guessing game of trial and elimination.
Keep the water clean and keep observing for now. I hope the fish heal and the flashing stops. If not...try different dewormers, and possibly combine with Kanaplex or maybe erythromycin.

 

Thank you, I will read up!!! Just curious, are you suggesting that whatever may have caused the flashing/irritation may have had a bacterial infection set in after the fact, and that may be causing the flashing (Just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly). If so, that didnt cross my mind. I guess I was so inundated with "ICH ICH ICH VELVET VELVET PARASITES PARASITES = FLASHING" from all the googling, I didnt take a moment and think.

Is the melafix treatment still on the table that you suggested earlier? I was thinking about starting a 3 to 4 day course on their weekly change and removing the carbon.

Thank you again, you are a saint for hanging with me in troubleshooting this.

Ill throw them another water change tomorrow for the **** of it and see how it goes.

 

Yes...that's what I'm saying. I am no expert on any of this, but I'm an OCD-level reader of anything fish keeping oriented. I have read A LOT! Unfortunately, that doesn't always mean much when actual experience trumps book learning. I recently lost some tiger barbs from nipped tails. Everything I read said to do water changes, keep the water pristine and the fins will heal on their own. I did all that...for a month with no improvement. I even asked on this forum and was told the same. Then they developed a fungus that I doggedly kept doing water changes for treatment. Only after it trurned into a mass of fuzz did I decide something else NEEDED to be done and ordered meds for it. I received them on different days so had started the fungus treatment before the bacterial treatment. I had no improvement until the antibiotic (kanamycin in this case) was used. Problem was the damage had been past the point of no return because I waited too long to use meds. A learning experience but cost the lives of my beautiful green tiger barbs.
In your case, you've done the basic treatments for flashing which is Paraguard, Prazipro, and Metro (which also checks off General Cure). You didn't do the heat, but I would think the long treatment of Paraguard would be sufficient to irradicate ich if that was the issue. With no other signs in this amount of time I think we can mark that off the list of possibilities (along with velvet).
At this point, you need to step back and watch for improvement from the treatments you've done. Whatever had caused the flashing may be gone but there is healing to be done and sometimes the process of healing can be itchy. That's a simple way to look at it but also just common sense. If things get worse quickly then proceed to the next option without waiting out the observation period. Maybe another symptom will manifest to help steer you in the right direction. I'm still hoping they improve and nothing else needs to be done. For your sake as much as the fish.
As for hanging with you...I know how frustrating this can be... especially when you're following all the rules! I wish someone with more experience would chime in, but that's the way some of these forums go. If the flashing continues after the observation period, you may want to start a new thread in hopes someone with the experience might come across it. I'm assuming (hoping) the other poster on that other thread ended up with his fish improving since they didn't follow up after an observation period. Fingers are crossed for you.
In my opinion Melafix is not a medicine. It's more like using aloe for a sunburn kind of thing. It's supposed to possess soothing properties that aid in healing so by all means give it a try while you're not using actual medications. It might be just the thing to stop the itching!

 

UPDATE

35% water change, removed carbon, started dosing Melafix & Pimafix (I have both on hand so I thought i'd hit with both since they are gentle "barely meds" by accounts online). My decision to use both instead of just the melafix as you suggested was just to cover my basis considering these combined should assist with any healing physically if they were irritated from the residual effects of the prior treatments or have any skin irritations or wounds that I can't see.

Rainbows haven't had any noticeable flashing, flashing seems to have lessened throughout the group of tigers, but its still around. Its seemed to be concentrated around the same ones now, same 3 seem to flash when I watch), but all together I want to say its getting better. Its gone from what seems like "every time I sit and observe the tank I catch them flashing" to every other or 2 out of 3 times ill catch them flashing when I observe.

If nothing changes over the next 7 days (nothing gets worse), I'm going to go ahead and move a bristlenose pleco that's been in a 10 gallon quarantine now for over a month into that tank, hes already a little passed 2 inches and is healthy.

After this period of time, and the barrage of meds that these fish have endured, I can't live in fear forever or it will drive me out of the enjoyment of the hobby.

Ill let you know of any updates or changes.

 

After this period of time, and the barrage of meds that these fish have endured, I can't live in fear forever or it will drive me out of the enjoyment of the hobby.

You are right about that! Maybe they're on the mend now and just need a little more time. Sounds like there is improvement so that's a step in the right direction!

 

Update

I recant my previous "Seems like its getting better", Flashing seems to be unchanged from the original levels. I caught another rainbow twitching and flashing around their gills.

Out of frustration I headed out to my LFS (not petco, family owned lfs), just found out about it. I came in an explained the situation to their head keeper, and the man that runs the quarantine on all the fish they sell (They do two weeks of prophylactic treatment before they even go on the floor, ill be buying from them for sure in the future!). He believes based on the length of time, and medications that I've used that Velvet and Ich would have presented themselves much sooner/already as mentioned by other forum members. He was not at all surprised that general cure didnt do much for the fish (I scratched my head at this), but was surprised that my 1 round of prazI didnt get the job done. He explained under these circumstances he recommended the following mixture:

1x full tank dose of Kordon Rid Ich+ and 1 full dose of PrazI pro, pre-mixed into a gallon jug with tank water and then re-introduced into the system. He explained that Malachite Green that's in the Kordon will (long story short) "Thin out" and help better disburse the liquid prazI and allow easier absorption by the fish. I am to dose this 1 time, and do a water change on day 7. He seems very knowledgeable (been doing it for 30 years). He said this mixture should be a triple threat to whatever is in the gills of my fish, he said he would be surprised if this doesn't do the trick. He seemed very confident that this attempt will finish what's been bothering the fish. He also promised that we will continue to trouble shoot this with me (if this doesn't work out). Honestly blown away by the level of service and information they offered considering I didnt buy single thing on the way out.

Fish immediately started flashing (to be expected) once I introduced the mixture after another water change, but all have seemed to settle down a few hours in and already seem to be breathing at a lower rate than they were earlier today. Got an airstone going and everyone is fed.

I will report back my results. Fingers crossed.

 

Wow...that's good news for you! I hope it works. Does the Rid Ich + stain the decor and silicone in the tank?
Sounds like you've found a real treasure for a lfs and a knowledgeable owner. Definitely keep us updated.

 

I was curious how your fish are doing? I'm thinking no news is good news!

 

Hi,
Life got super busy, and I hadn't thought about posting back! Thanks for the nudge.

The fish have shown a slight improvement over the last week with that last dose of Kordon Rid Ich+ Mixed with the PrazI Pro. At the advice of the LFS that I mentioned earlier, they suggested to run the treatment again. We are seeing progress! Flashing has lessened possibly by about 35 to 40% from my counts during my observation periods.

And yes, this Kordon Rid Ich has Malachite Green in it, so it does have a blue Tint, the only thing its stained thus far is the airline tubing. After a few hours after administering, the blue color reduces by about 90%, I read that I essentially turns invisible over time if your PH is over a 7, and this was my experience with it.

I will report back if things change! Thank you for your concern!