Am I Being Impatient Or Is Something Wrong?

Am I doing something wrong, or just being impatient?

Newbie here. I need some help (what better place to get some feedback, right?). We have a 38gal bowfront that has been “cycling”/running since Feb 2. I say it’s cycling, but I’m not really sure... My ammonia readings don’t really seem to be going down (this morning it was about 4.0 per API, and free ammonia was somewhere between 0.1-0.2 per SeaChem ammonia test). I have yet to see a spike in nitrite, let alone nitrate. Our tap water has about 0.25 Ammonia, and we treat with Prime. PH is 7.6 and water temp is 78.


We have one Endler in the tank (I didn’t research before we started and got four fish right away. He’s all that’s left). We used Dr Tim’s at the very beginning and... nothing. Two weeks ago, out of desperation, I purchased Stability. Dosed for a week as per the instructions and nothing. We even added two Amazon Swords, Water Wisteria, Java Fern, and Anubias thinking this might help with the ammonia (and, if nothing else, at least create a more natural environment). Nothing.


I’ve reduced feeding, done countless water changes -even a 50% water change yesterday seems to barely drop the ammonia. In fact, even with multiple water changes, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it drop below 2.0 on the API test. Should I do a 75% change or something? I’ve been using Prime and AmGuard (not at the same time... the ammonia was off the charts a while back, so I bought the SeaChem ammonia test and AmGuard) and do WCs what feels like everyday -anywhere from 10-40% (I have been reluctant to change more than that because I don’t want to make things even worse). I’m worried that something has gone wrong -especially reading somewhere that sometimes high ammonia levels can actually prevent the nitrifying bacteria from growing. Am I just being impatient, or is something off? Is this a “watched pot never boils” kind of thing?


I’m trying hard to not get discouraged, and am wondering if I should do a large water change with bottled water or something? Leave it alone? Keep doing what I’m doing? I don’t know. I’m ready for this thing to be cycled so I can actually stock it! Anyone have any advice (we live in the middle of nowhere so “seeding” the tank isn’t an option)? 8 weeks seems like a long time...

 

8 weeks is a long time indeed, especially if you’ve been using bottled bacteria. However, it as if sounds you’re all over the place and scatter brained, even I’m confused. Have you given Dr. Tim’s or Stability a chance, before movig onto something else? Are you sure you’re reading the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate correctly? Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, but if there’s one thing I learned in life it’s that some people can’t seem to follow basic instructions.

 

Seachem stability still takes awhile to start converting. What kind of filter to you have? Do you treat water before adding either directly or dose tank first? Do you ever let untreated water hit your filter? It can kill off bacteria. Ammonia + nitrite over 1 is beyond standard prime dose, you need to get those numbers down. It's recommended to always be under 1 combines for fish in cycle.
Are you vacuuming your substrate really well? You should have that much ammonia generation.

 

8 weeks is a long time indeed, especially if you’ve been using bottled bacteria. However, it as if sounds you’re all over the place and scatter brained, even I’m confused. Have you given Dr. Tim’s or Stability a chance, before movig onto something else? Are you sure you’re reading the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate correctly? Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, but if there’s one thing I learned in life it’s that some people can’t seem to follow basic instructions.

Not dumb questions at all. I probably am all over the place lol! I’m naturally scattered, which is why I’m looking for advice. The first day we got the tank (8wks ago) we added Dr. Tim’s. Two weeks ago, I added Stability because nothing was happening. One week ago, I finished the Stability dosing. Yes, I’m sure I’m reading the nitrite and nitrate correctly.

Seachem stability still takes awhile to start converting. What kind of filter to you have? Do you treat water before adding either directly or dose tank first? Do you ever let untreated water hit your filter? It can kill off bacteria. Ammonia + nitrite over 1 is beyond standard prime dose, you need to get those numbers down. It's recommended to always be under 1 combines for fish in cycle.
Are you vacuuming your substrate really well? You should have that much ammonia generation.

Duly noted on the Stability taking a while! Yes, in all honesty, I’m sure I have let untreated water hit the filter. We have been using a 2.5gal bucket for WCs, so I’ve definitely dosed the tank a time or two instead of dosing for each 2.5gal bucket (that would be kind of difficult lol!). What do you recommend (dose the tank and then add water)? You say I should be using more Prime: How much Prime should I be using? No Nitrite or Nitrate, just ammonia. Also, I probably haven’t vacuumed the substrate really well; it’s been vacuumed, but I’m not confident enough to say “really well.” As far as filter goes, I’m using the filter that came with the set-up: MarineLand Penguin power filter (size C, if that helps) with biowheel. Sorry if that’s not helpful; I wasn’t lying when I said I was a newbie haha!

 

What do you recommend (dose the tank and then add water)?

Are they the topfin buckets? I use 2.5 gallon buckets for water changes as well, and always dose the water with prime as the bucket is filling up. I find a small (1ml) eye dropper to work the best to add the prime to the small buckets. It allows you to put 0.25 ml into each 2 gallon bucket, which is about 2-3 drops of prime.

 

I had a tank take almost 5 months to cycle, so I can appreciate the frustration.

You have a 38 gallon tank, with one endler, and your ammonia is typically 4 ppm? That is really weird, have I misunderstood? I have a 37, started with 4 Platys and had to increase to 8 as I was having a hard time getting enough ammonia produced.

Are you vacuuming at all? Do you dose separately with ammonia? Any snails? An endler in a 38 would hardly produce any ammonia.

 

Are they the topfin buckets? I use 2.5 gallon buckets for water changes as well, and always dose the water with prime as the bucket is filling up. I find a small (1ml) eye dropper to work the best to add the prime to the small buckets. It allows you to put 0.25 ml into each 2 gallon bucket, which is about 2-3 drops of prime.

I don’t know what kind of bucket it is (got it at the pet store), but I will definitely take your advice and use an eye dropper and Prime as I’m filling! Great suggestion!!

I had a tank take almost 5 months to cycle, so I can appreciate the frustration.

You have a 38 gallon tank, with one endler, and your ammonia is typically 4 ppm? That is really weird, have I misunderstood? I have a 37, started with 4 Platys and had to increase to 8 as I was having a hard time getting enough ammonia produced.

Are you vacuuming at all? Do you dose separately with ammonia? Any snails? An endler in a 38 would hardly produce any ammonia.

Right! You haven’t misunderstood at all!! Being new, I never thought about just one endler creating all that ammonia. I didn’t even start to get suspicious until I passed the one month mark and started thinking: Something must be up! So this is unusual, right? I’m so glad I posted then!!! I’m doing a water change and vacuuming the heck out of my gravel right after I post. No snails. Never added any ammonia.

After I do the WC and vacuum thoroughly, do I need to do anything else? What a mess I seem to have created... any way to fix it (besides the WC and vacuum)?

 

None of this makes any sense. How is the free ammonia that low of a percentage of overall ammonia with a ph above 7.5?
Nevermind, you've likely tested the treated water and the ammo lock and prime have converted or bound it, so it makes sense.

So first off, a lot of people think a 50 percent wc is a huge amount. It isn't. Get comfortable doing about 80 percent if your fish can still swim fine in that little of water. I would do a huge wc and then retest.

What decorations and substrate do you have and where did they come from last? Store? The woods? A reptile? Same question for your filter.

Go buy the big bottle of tss+. Don't add it until we figure out where all this ammonia is coming from.

 

I sure wouldn't vacuum the gravel out. Any beneficial bacteria on it is just going to be sucked up and away.

 

You can siphon water out, treat prime for 38g directly in tank. just use a full cap full. Wait 10 minutes, the fill the water back. I would turn off filter while this is happening. If you aren't already.
It took me two weeks to see nitrites after adding stability.

 

How much are you feeding too? I’m wondering if there’s left over food in the tank too. Wraithen asked some good questions too, could anything else be a source of ammonia?

 

Filter should have most bacteria, if he's getting ammonia spikes from poop in gravel, I would rather get ride of that. Without any nitrites/nitrates he doesn't have too much yet anyway. If you have more, just a bunch more stability directly to filter.

 

I sure wouldn't vacuum the gravel out. Any beneficial bacteria on it is just going to be sucked up and away.

I agree with Wraithen though. Dump as much water as possible and then start over with a new bottle of bacteria. The ammonia has me puzzled though. Do you have access to anyone's cycled media floss from another tank? How much are you feeding and are you taking out any remaining after some time?

Filter should have most bacteria, if he's getting ammonia spikes from poop in gravel, I would rather get ride of that. Without any nitrites/nitrates he doesn't have too much yet anyway. If you have more, just a bunch more stability directly to filter.

I just don't see how one endler could have that much poop.

 

He had more fish that died. Don't know what kind or how long they lived.

 

None of this makes any sense. How is the free ammonia that low of a percentage of overall ammonia with a ph above 7.5?
Nevermind, you've likely tested the treated water and the ammo lock and prime have converted or bound it, so it makes sense.

So first off, a lot of people think a 50 percent wc is a huge amount. It isn't. Get comfortable doing about 80 percent if your fish can still swim fine in that little of water. I would do a huge wc and then retest.

What decorations and substrate do you have and where did they come from last? Store? The woods? A reptile? Same question for your filter.

Go buy the big bottle of tss+. Don't add it until we figure out where all this ammonia is coming from.

Yes, I’m using AmGuard. And thank you for the reassurance! Doing 80% WC right now, and hearing you say, get more comfortable with it, well, makes me more comfortable. I use a gravel substrate and decorations from the local pet store. Mostly plastic plants (was too scared to start with real plants right away). There is also a piece of driftwood that I boiled for hours and even took out at one point and tested it to see if it was the ammonia source. It wasn’t.

You can siphon water out, treat prime for 38g directly in tank. just use a full cap full. Wait 10 minutes, the fill the water back. I would turn off filter while this is happening. If you aren't already.
It took me two weeks to see nitrites after adding stability.

Doing this as I type (waiting the ten minutes). I have half a bottle of stability left. Use it after this water change? Or order TSS and wait for it to come in?

How much are you feeding too?

Just a smidge. I worry I’m starving him lol! He eats it all in under two minutes (if he doesn’t, I scoop it out -or try to anyway)

He had more fish that died. Don't know what kind or how long they lived.

This is correct. Guppies. One died in a couple days, the other three died after a week or two -maybe three? One even dropped couple fry and then passed. Maybe there was a dead fry in the gravel? I didn’t see one though. I got a TON of really gross water from vacuuming the gravel like you suggested. Very cloudy. Took out all the decorations and plants (they were just planted) to make sure I got it all thoroughly.

When I finish, I’ll post the ammonia results (since I used Prime, I will test free and total with the SeaChem test kit). I guess I’m learning the hard way the value of vacuuming the gravel well :-( If this doesn’t work, I suppose the next step would be removing all the decorations?

 

Add stability after water change. You can't switch to tss really, since you can't use any conditioners for 24 hrs prior or 7days after. With your ammonia issues it would kill the fish. Poor a 1/4 bottle into the filter after an hour or so. May make water cloudy, don't worry.

 

Another possibility (although unlikely) is that you aren't shaking the nitrate testing bottle enough (when using the API test kit). I know if I don't use mine for a while, I have to really SHAKE the nitrate bottle to get any reading of nitrates.
It's also possible that you aren't shaking the stability enough before adding it, and so the bacteria is not 'activated'. (I don't really know why shaking bottled bacteria makes a difference or how it works, its just a thought.)
Again, I think this is highly unlikely because of how high your ammonia is and not having any nitrites either. Just something I thought of, and figured we might as well not leave any stone unturned.

 

The prime can be used, just gotta wait 24 hours to add the tss+. The prime will do it's job for a total of 48 hours. This technique seems to work well.

You can still add stability until you get tss, they don't fight.

 

But, once you add tss, you can't use prime for 7 days. Fishy will never make it.

 

Add stability after water change ... Poor a 1/4 bottle into the filter after an hour or so. May make water cloudy, don't worry.

I followed your advice to the letter! Continue dosing with stability for the next 7 days? Did 80% water change, dosed the remaining water with Prime, and waited 10 minutes before adding water. Kept the filter off and gave it about ten minutes after it was filled back up before I turned it on. I waited an hour, tested the water, and added the Stability directly to the filter.

Here are my results: API about 2.0 or so.
SeaChem: Free ammonia: 0.01-0.05(maybe a little less). Total ammonia 3.0!

This made me retest the tap water. Sure enough, it’s in the neighborhood of 2.0!! Could this be part of my problem??? Will it be okay to keep using the Prime with tap water? Do I need to buy bottled water or something, and just use the tap with Prime for PWCs once it’s cycled? Or is this okay as long as I stay on top of dosing until bacteria starts to multiply?

((PS: I feel like this can’t be good for anyone to have this much ammonia in tap water! Is this normal?! We need to start giving the dogs bottled water!))

Another possibility (although unlikely) is that you aren't shaking the nitrate testing bottle enough (when using the API test kit). I know if I don't use mine for a while, I have to really SHAKE the nitrate bottle to get any reading of nitrates.
It's also possible that you aren't shaking the stability enough before adding it, and so the bacteria is not 'activated'. (I don't really know why shaking bottled bacteria makes a difference or how it works, its just a thought.)
Again, I think this is highly unlikely because of how high your ammonia is and not having any nitrites either. Just something I thought of, and figured we might as well not leave any stone unturned.

Thank you for the advice! I shook the heck out of the Stability before I dosed, and I’ll make sure to keep your comment in mind the next time I check for nitrates!

 

My city was cleaning out the system for the last 6 weeks and my tap was at .5
I lost my cycle when treating infection and luckily it's back to almost zero.
Hopefully this is temporary. You could buy bulk filtered water at the store. I think it's 5 gallon refillable jugs. Or, you could get a reverse osmosis system for the house. I wouldn't use anything over .5 from the tap personally. You'll probably need to add some minerals back, more than just KH. Seachem equalibrium is common for that. I would hold off dosing any more stability till you determine the route and do another change.

 

My city was cleaning out the system for the last 6 weeks and my tap was at .5
I lost my cycle when treating infection and luckily it's back to almost zero.
Hopefully this is temporary. You could buy bulk filtered water at the store. I think it's 5 gallon refillable jugs. Or, you could get a reverse osmosis system for the house. I wouldn't use anything over .5 from the tap personally. You'll probably need to add some minerals back, more than just KH. Seachem equalibrium is common for that. I would hold off dosing any more stability till you determine the route and do another change.

Man oh man. Okay. So is that what you would suggest: Using the grocery store water (distilled or spring) and then going from there? I’m kind of at a standstill then I suppose. I can order on amazon tonight. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, how, exactly do you use Equilibrium? I don’t currently have the ability to test beyond Ammonia (free and total), nitrites, nitrates, and pH. I guess I need to find/order another test? How frustrating

I guess it’s positive we think we know what the problem is... just stinks big time!

 

But, once you add tss, you can't use prime for 7 days. Fishy will never make it.

The tss+ has it's own stuff to keep fishy safe from nitrogen, otherwise it would not be a very useful product.

 

I sure wouldn't vacuum the gravel out. Any beneficial bacteria on it is just going to be sucked up and away.

Not to be argumentative but I have to strongly disagree with this. I keep seeing it being posted but It just isn't true. Vacuuming the substrate will not remove the BB that has attached to it. We want to help folks new to this wonderful hobby and if we give them incorrect information they will then pass on incorrect information to the next person having problems.

Vacuuming all of the buildup that accumulates in the gravel is very important. That build up causes all kinds of problems such as what the OP is experiencing and even worse problems.

 

Not to be argumentative but I have to strongly disagree with this. I keep seeing it being posted but It just isn't true. Vacuuming the substrate will not remove the BB that has attached to it. We want to help folks new to this wonderful hobby and if we give them incorrect information they will then pass on incorrect information to the next person having problems.

Vacuuming all of the buildup that accumulates in the gravel is very important. That build up causes all kinds of problems such as what the OP is experiencing and even worse problems.

To expound a bit, you can't remove bb by vacuuming. Not once it's established to something. Mulm, while helpful to plants, breaks down to degrade the water for fish. The easy way to do this is generally, unless heavily planted, vacuum everything except right next to a plant.

Bb are tougher than a lot of people give them credit for. They can even just go dormant instead of dying after a surplus causes too many of them. An example would be the difference between a mature tank and a newly cycled one.

 

Mattgirl, this isn’t the first time I have read you accuse someone of giving newbies the wrong information. I, for one, am offended. We can agree to disagree but not make accusations! That being said, it would is true that very little bacteria is removed when syphoning a tank. However, when starting a new cycle it is not recommended. I am making no attempt to provide wrong information. We simply have different opinions here. Thank you for your understanding

 

Mattgirl, this isn’t the first time I have read you accuse someone of giving newbies the wrong information. I, for one, am offended. We can agree to disagree but not make accusations! That being said, it would is true that very little bacteria is removed when syphoning a tank. However, when starting a new cycle it is not recommended. I am making no attempt to provide wrong information. We simply have different opinions here. Thank you for your understanding

I truly am sorry for offending. I just know that vacuuming the gravel won't remove the BB and wanted to let the OP know that she can and should do it.

We are all here because we care and want to share correct information.

 

Again, we can agree to disagree. If it were an established tank, I would go along with you but this is not an established tank.

 

Again, we can agree to disagree. If it were an established tank, I would go along with you but this is not an established tank.

What if we look to cost benefit in an un established environment. Wouldn't the poor water quality inducing agent be better sucked up vs taking up some of the bb that would negate some of it?

 

This is a lot to take in. I noticed someone asked if you treat the water prior to adding after doing the water change. I couldn't find an answer. If you do not treat prior, the chemicals in your tap water (chlorine, chloramine etc) will kill any BB in your tank preventing any chance of establishing a colony.

 

Seachem - Equilibrium
2 TBS per 20 gallons will give +6 dGh.

This may help, as I think you'll need to use alkaline buffer as well for Kh.


Hopefully, your water returns back to normal, check with the city. Also, I saw another post where somebody said they had filtered water (5g) delivered every 2 weeks to their house.
This may be cheaper/easier than fetching from store?

 

What if we look to cost benefit in an un established environment. Wouldn't the poor water quality inducing agent be better sucked up vs taking up some of the bb that would negate some of it?

But according to you and Mattgirl the B.B. would not be taken up.

 

THANK YOU to everyone who offered up helpful advice to the newbie!! I have an exciting update:

I have been adding AmGuard everyday since the big water change, and decided, since I still have Stability on hand, to dose with that and roll the dice before adding Equilibrium or starting over. I’ve been testing daily, and today I’m seeing something I have yet to see in the almost 9wks of this process:

0.25ppm Nitrite
5ppm of Nitrate (maybe 10!)

Ammonia is still present (and I’m still dosing with AmGuard). This morning free Ammonia was 0.1 before I dosed -total was around 1 (so it’s actually going down!). It’s still high, which is why I’m dosing with AmGuard, but I hadn’t previously seen any activity in Nitrite or Nitrate at all -so I’m excited that something is working! Maybe a combination of the 80% water change, vacuuming the gravel, daily AmGuard, or even the Stability is making this happen. In any case, I’ll take it!! Never thought a water test would make my day haha!

Seachem - Equilibrium
2 TBS per 20 gallons will give +6 dGh.

This may help, as I think you'll need to use alkaline buffer as well for Kh.
Alkaline Buffer and Equilibrium - The Planted Tank Forum

Thank you so much for this -and ALL- of your advice!! I held off this week because it seemed like something I could easily mess up. I can’t say thank you enough for all of your input!

In any case, I wouldn’t have made any progress and might’ve even given up if it hadn’t been for the folks on this forum! Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to impart wisdom and help a newbie out! I greatly appreciate it!!!

Hopefully in a couple of weeks the ammonia and nitrite will be 0, and I can slowly start (finally) stocking the tank. But progress is progress! I’m taking it!!

 

UPDATE:

0ppm Ammonia
0ppm Nitrite
10ppm Nitrate

It ACTUALLY happened!!! I’ve never seen zero ammonia before!!!!! Thanks again everybody!! Elation doesn’t even begin to describe it!!