55 Gallon Tank Adult Angelfish Aggression

TLDR; Added two new angelfish a male and a female to my tank. My bonded pair seem to no longer be bonded and the female angelfish seem to bully one of the other males. What could be the cause?

Hey all,

So I am having an interesting time with the angelfish. I currently have 4 there are two new ones. There was a bonded pair Lucifer (black marble) and Gabriel (black stripe). About 2 or 3 weeks ago I added Jophiel (Yellow top/silver bottom) and Raphael(Koi pattern). Of the 4 fish, there is one female (Jophiel). When I added Jophiel and Raphael, Lucifer and Gabriel were cool they went everywhere together, they begged for food at the same time all was well. I added Raphael and Jophiel after an acclimation period and quarantining. Gabriel dropped Lucifer like a bad habit for Jophiel, I suspect he is expecting to help with the reproduction of angelfish. Jophiel has claimed literally half of my 55 gallon, she will not let anyone else near that side, she tolerates Dyson (my BN), but I think that's cause he doesn't put with anything, I've seen him charge the other fish for coming near his squash, he rules that tank no matter what anyone else has to say I think.

I tell you all of that to tell you this!

Lucifer likes to roam the WHOLE TANK. I often find him hiding behind the big reef centerpiece, now. Jophiel, Raphael, and Gabriel (not as much as others) have been chasing him around the tank and just seeming to bully him. Today I noticed his tailfin was torn up. I am wondering if the other fish feel that are not being fed enough, I feed flakes, shrimp pellets, and sinking pellets as well as algae wafers. The flakes are about 2x a week, Shrimp and sinking pellets about once a week, and algae wafers about every other week. I have the following in my tank:
4 Angelfish
9 Neon Tetras (They tend to mind their own business) I had 11 at one point, but two have left the tank somehow...
3 Speckled Cories (I bought 5 but never found the two missing ones....)
1 BN Pleco
and Lord only knows how many Ramhorn snails (I find two or three every stinking day minimum, about about 20 to 30 when I go snail hunting)

my water parameters outside of a water change (which comes to about every 2 weeks)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0-20ppm depending on the time
pH: about 7

GH: 5-10 depending on the last water change.

Some additional information:
I see Jophiel picking algae off the Amazon Swords when she isn't chasing Lucifer out of 'her' side of the tank.

My current planting is 3 Amazon swords, 4 or 5 bronze crypts, 1 Anubis (it melted down all the way to the root ball, but it has new sprouts), and 'two' fire ferns attached to two decent-sized ( I say two because I separated one larger ball of fire moss into two so do with that information that you will).

I am wondering if this is normal Angelfish behavior, if they are fighting over resources like food or if Josphiel is just being mean... If it is a breeding thing should I do anything to my water to help Lucifer's fin heal better? Like, add some stress coat maybe? Should I contain Jophiel since she is being the bully? Any help is appreciated, please let me know if you have any questions.

 

You added new fish to the tank which messed with the hierarchy of any one that was existing. I imagine that the new angelfish pushed the one that is being bullied to the bottom of the hierarchy. You will probably need to add more cover if it is being chased constantly.

 

Its normal angelfish behavior. Females don't like sharing territory for spawning with other fish. And as far as a male, the strongest male usually wins the heart of the female and the pair will defend the territory to spawn in. You have changed the dynamic by introducing more competition for resources and competition for partners.

Generally if they have the space a pair will take up half of a 4ft tank and beat all other fish that they can to the other side then chase them back if they cross the 3ft mark heading towards their territory.

Angelfish behavior.
In the wild juveniles, and unpaired males, will cruise around together in a group and as females mature they break off sometimes alone, sometimes with a male and set up to spawn while the group of juveniles and adult males that aren't paired continue to cruise around. When they set up a spawning site, they will defend it with everything they can.

One female and one male works, everything else is extra fish invading their spawning territory and you will likely lose fish because it will be stressful for them as they can't get far enough away to not cross into the spawning territory and it going to keep happening triggering a response from the pair.

Generally a pair will not tolerate invaders to their spawning area unless they've been small tank adjusted in which case their spawning territory will shrink, but that rarely works also as it stresses the pair and they end up eating the eggs to avoid someone else getting to eat them.
Male female pairs of more than one really don't work in an aquarium, two females usually won't work in an aquarium, it's not enough room for them and they will keep fighting over spawning territory.

the reason the recommendation that a person gets a group if 6 juveniles is because at maturity you'd be about guaranteed to get at least one female out of them, angel fry are "male heavy." you need a group of 6 that are premature if you intend to breed for the highest change of getting one to turn out female, but one or two or 3 male angels are fine, or more males even as a group, as long as there are no females to increase the males display of dominance trying to get selected by her, or extra females in too small of a tank where territories overlap. I'd wouldn't do 2 females in a 4ft, it's never worked for me, but I haven't tried a 6ft or 8ft tank to know if that works.

 

You added new fish to the tank which messed with the hierarchy of any one that was existing. I imagine that the new angelfish pushed the one that is being bullied to the bottom of the hierarchy. You will probably need to add more cover if it is being chased constantly.

Are you saying to try and get another pair of males? I don't want to end up with more Females and then well this can only go in one direction....

Its normal angelfish behavior. Females don't like sharing territory for spawning with other fish. And as far as a male, the strongest male usually wins the heart of the female and the pair will defend the territory to spawn in. You have changed the dynamic by introducing more competition for resources and competition for partners.

Generally if they have the space a pair will take up half of a 4ft tank and beat all other fish that they can to the other side then chase them back if they cross the 3ft mark heading towards their territory.

Angelfish behavior.
In the wild juveniles and unpaired males will cruise around together in a group as females mature they break off sometimes alone, sometimes with a male and set up to spawn while the group of juveniles and adult males that aren't paired continue to cruise around. When they set up a spawning site, they will defend it with everything they can.

One female and one male works, everything else is extra fish invading their spawning territory and you will likely lose fish because it will be stressful for them as they can't get far enough away to not cross into the spawning territory and it going to keep happening triggering a response from the pair.

Generally a pair will not tolerate invaders to their spawning area unless they've been small tank adjusted in which case their spawning territory will shrink, but that rarely works also as it stresses the pair and they end up eating the eggs to avoid someone else getting to eat them.
Male female pairs of more than one really don't work in an aquarium, two females usually won't work in an aquarium, it's not enough room for them and they will keep fighting over spawning territory.

What would your suggestion be to reduce the stress on Lucifer? Or will he come to accept his place in the hierarchy eventually and learn to stay away?

 

What would your suggestion be to reduce the stress on Lucifer? Or will he come to accept his place in the hierarchy eventually and learn to stay away?

There's really only a couple solutions if you want this to work without fish dying from stress or being killed. and that's separating the male/female pairs to their own tanks, or removing or rehoming the females if not wanting to breed angels. no females, no territorial behavior for spawning, no females to fight over constantly.

A tank for a pair by themselves doesn't need to be 55g, A 20g works for me, I think a 30g would be better. But if doing two females or more, or more than one pair in a tank it has to be much MUCH bigger to work out long term. In the wild, there's an entire river for fish to stay away and get away from pairs if they are getting the short end of the deal they can retreat never to be seen again and heal and move on and find another female. But in an aquarium, there's nowhere to go except to keep getting the short end of the deal.
Just being honest and probably not the answer you want to hear, but two females in one tank is going to be constant battles for spawning territory, and multiple males with the females are going to have them constantly fighting for who's the best one for her to choose to spawn with, and every time eggs are put down, everyone is going to pay the price with nowhere to go to give the pair their space to do their thing.

as I said, juveniles and single males will school and can have a social order and maintain peace, when females mature they break off and set up a spawning territory, and then it's all about having babies and defending their spot for the babies. and repeating the process over and over and over, trying to have as many babies as they can before they die. It's the only thing on their minds, that and finding a strong male with good genetics that will defend her and the eggs and help her be successful.
A pair doesn't want any other fish around, and will not share their spawning space, and they will not share the space, either eating the eggs and beating up whoever they can beat up, or dying in the process of trying to defend the eggs and fry. either way, this stress every roughly 15 days will take it's toll on everyone else that isn't part of the pair that's in the tank.

 

There's really only a couple solutions if you want this to work without fish dying from stress or being killed. and that's separating the male/female pairs to their own tanks, or removing or rehoming the females if not wanting to breed angels. no females, no territorial behavior for spawning, no females to fight over constantly.

A tank for a pair by themselves doesn't need to be 55g, A 20g works for me, I think a 30g would be better. But if doing two females or more, or more than one pair in a tank it has to be much MUCH bigger to work out long term. In the wild, there's an entire river for fish to stay away and get away from pairs if they are getting the short end of the deal they can retreat never to be seen again and heal and move on and find another female. But in an aquarium, there's nowhere to go except to keep getting the short end of the deal.
Just being honest and probably not the answer you want to hear, but two females in one tank is going to be constant battles for spawning territory, and multiple males with the females are going to have them constantly fighting for who's the best one for her to choose to spawn with, and every time eggs are put down, everyone is going to pay the price with nowhere to go to give the pair their space to do their thing.

as I said, juveniles and single males will school and can have a social order and maintain peace, when females mature they break off and set up a spawning territory, and then it's all about having babies and defending their spot for the babies. and repeating the process over and over and over, trying to have as many babies as they can before they die. It's the only thing on their minds, that and finding a strong male with good genetics that will defend her and the eggs and help her be successful.
A pair doesn't want any other fish around, and will not share their spawning space, and they will not share the space, either eating the eggs and beating up whoever they can beat up, or dying in the process of trying to defend the eggs and fry. either way, this stress every roughly 15 days will take it's toll on everyone else that isn't part of the pair that's in the tank.

Sparky,

You are right not really what I was hoping for, however, that is why I come to this forum because other fish lovers will be completely honest from their own experiences. I will consider getting a 20 or 30 for Jophiel and Gabriel and let Lucifer and Rapheal have the 55-gallon, keep just them since they are both males I don't foresee any issues. I really don't want to be breeding them as I do not have an outlet or the space to keep them from trying to kill each other or eat the fry, but such is life, as rehoming is not something that would be pleasant, to be honest, a lot of amateur people around here who do not even know about the nitrogen cycle. My wife keeps talking about wanting to consider getting another tank...I think she has a worse case of MTS than I do LOL. Thanks for the guidance.

 

Sparky,

You are right not really what I was hoping for, however, that is why I come to this forum because other fish lovers will be completely honest from their own experiences. I will consider getting a 20 or 30 for Jophiel and Gabriel and let Lucifer and Rapheal have the 55-gallon, keep just them since they are both males I don't foresee any issues. I really don't want to be breeding them as I do not have an outlet or the space to keep them from trying to kill each other or eat the fry, but such is life, as rehoming is not something that would be pleasant, to be honest, a lot of amateur people around here who do not even know about the nitrogen cycle. My wife keeps talking about wanting to consider getting another tank...I think she has a worse case of MTS than I do LOL. Thanks for the guidance.

Yeah it sucks, but its the truth, you can try to make it work, and stop when you know it's clearly not if you like, but felt I needed to share just so you knew what to expect. If you are concerned now, just wait for when everyone is mature and in the same tank.

That all said, I was thinking and you could probably put a divider in the 55 for two pairs and save the cost and work of another tank... not sure how your other fish will fair with it like that... maybe a divider like grid plate big enough for the cories and neons to escape through if they need to but not big enough for the angels, so if chased they can escape, might get chased back the other way.... still its an interruption where the chasing angel can't get to them, and they may not breed at the same time. People use a method like this for breeding fry, where the fry can get through but not the adults, so it offers protection.

Just an idea. Best of luck!