Adriana’s 25-gallon Saltwater Build

You're very welcome. I'm worried too but hoping for the best all the same. Even if the worst occurs, and you were to lose all the fish, I would still seek out a diagnosis with help from more experienced members, so you will know best how to move forward.

I know how this can make one feel, and I almost gave up on our freshwater 20 gallon that should be a community tank. We lost more than 30 fish to disease there and it really does a number on one's confidence. Please just know that you're not alone in this feeling and it doesn't make you a failure. We all do the best we can but sometimes we lose anyway. It's not easy maintaining a healthy tank, particularly with the state of the fish trade today.

Not now, but when you're back from vacation and feeling a little less stressed, take some time to really delve into the disease forums on R2R and you'll see that, unfortunately, illness is quite a common occurrence. It's most often mentioned with new fish, but that shouldn't lead us to believe that the nasties can't hide for some time.

You know how I feel on the matter, but I'll mention it again. Nothing helps more than following a good quarantine protocol, (again, look for advice from Humblefish.) Sadly, even then, losses are experienced. Of the 7 critters that have entered my salty qt, only 3 survived to make it to the reef tank. It's just easier to observe, diagnose, and treat in a qt. Most importantly, it keeps illness out of the display. If you're interested in the future, we can talk about setting up a quick and dirty qt on the cheap.

After all of this happening, I would definitely be interested in quarantining new fish. Feel free to PM me about it if you’d like. Thank you for all the help!

 

Good news! The little guy’s still kickin’. Apparently, she saw him in one of the rocks that the goby and pistol shrimp live in.

 

Super glad to hear the good news! And no need to keep the quick and dirty qt thing private. So, here's what I would do if I had absolutely nowhere to put another tank but needed a qt.

First, the biggest problem... a sponge filter is needed, and the sponge should be seeded in a healthy display tank. This is key for a quick quarantine, but the problem with starting this during a bad time is that the display may be sick. This doesn't mean we don't qt, it just means we'll have to fishless cycle the sponge filter, and that's not usually quick.

Acquire a food-safe plastic container of appropriate size with a lid. Sterlite is food safe, as are Brute containers and probably many others I don't know about. Sterlite has many different shapes and sizes available, and I've even heard of people using the large but shallow ones so they can be placed partially under furniture. A double shoebox size, or somewhere around 5g's, should do the trick for nano fish though. Consider where the container will be housed before addressing the lid, where holes need to be drilled or made with a hot nail or similar. If the container will be under furniture, it seems wise to me to only put the holes where there will be nothing above it... so dust or whatever doesn't get in. Anyhow, make holes in the lid for oxygen exchange.

We'll still need a heater and flow. For you and I, nano keepers, these are what I'd recommend. They're cheap and have worked for some time for me on the 5 gallon qt's.

Over time I've purchased several of these because I like having a spare or two on hand at all times. They come in quite handy with all kinds of things, like keeping flow and oxygenation in a bucket during baths or dips or increasing surface agitation in a tank without a major increase in overall flow. They are adjustable, easy to clean, and have been a lifesaver a few times.


I don't love this heater, but not because it doesn't work. I've been using two of them for the better part of a year. In a 5 gallon with the pump linked above running, the tanks are a few degrees warmer than the setting. With a cheap glass aquarium thermometer, I am aware of the discrepancy, so simply set the heater lower, e.g. set at 75°F to achieve 78°F. However, if a container is even slightly smaller, the temp might get even higher, idk, but it might be worth looking for a less powerful one when using on a smaller water volume. I'm pretty sure I've seen heaters with even lower wattages, but I have no experience with those. I should also mention that a 5 gallon is already pretty small. I'd try not to go with much smaller as we want to offer as much comfort in qt as possible.

You may also want to use a drill or a razor to make passages for any cords leaving the container. We'll want that lid clicked all the way on, not propped open by a cord, as nearly all sw fish are known to be jumpers.

So, with a prepared container, a cycled sponge filter, the pump, and the heater, we have a quick and dirty qt that is not so fragile as a glass tank and can easily be kept on the floor under or in front of the main tank. The pump should probably be placed near enough to the surface to create a good ripple for oxygenation, and as mentioned, a regular old glass thermometer is great for monitoring temperature.

But, qt is tough on a fish, and we need to offer some creature comforts. We want to avoid anything porous like rock and sand, as these can absorb the meds that may and probably will be used in qt. Med absorption is a problem on more than one front, not the least of which is that copper treatment entails maintaining a precise therapeutic copper level. If copper is being absorbed into rocks, then it is much harder, if not impossible, to maintain that consistent level we need. Instead of rocks, we want things like multiple PVC elbows large enough for fish to fit inside, as well as perhaps some good old plastic aquarium plants. The other reason it's important to use hides like this is that we can sterilize them between uses with bleach.

Just like any other aquarium, we must top it off, (so best to mark a water line at the time of filling), monitor salinity and nitro parameters, and do water changes, (as dictated by any meds we're using.)

Another thing worth mentioning is that saltwater is by nature, corrosive. I wouldn't recommend leaving this 'tank' running for extended periods of time, and I would recommend thoroughly cleaning everything and dry storing between uses. The sponge from the sponge filter can be rinsed very well, then left in the sun to dry and kill off any remaining living things (I'd give it good old Florida sun for several days, just to be extra safe.) After another good rinse, it can be placed in the filtration on the display so it is ready for next time.

 

Super glad to hear the good news! And no need to keep the quick and dirty qt thing private. So, here's what I would do if I had absolutely nowhere to put another tank but needed a qt.

First, the biggest problem... a sponge filter is needed, and the sponge should be seeded in a healthy display tank. This is key for a quick quarantine, but the problem with starting this during a bad time is that the display may be sick. This doesn't mean we don't qt, it just means we'll have to fishless cycle the sponge filter, and that's not usually quick.

Acquire a food-safe plastic container of appropriate size with a lid. Sterlite is food safe, as are Brute containers and probably many others I don't know about. Sterlite has many different shapes and sizes available, and I've even heard of people using the large but shallow ones so they can be placed partially under furniture. A double shoebox size, or somewhere around 5g's, should do the trick for nano fish though. Consider where the container will be housed before addressing the lid, where holes need to be drilled or made with a hot nail or similar. If the container will be under furniture, it seems wise to me to only put the holes where there will be nothing above it... so dust or whatever doesn't get in. Anyhow, make holes in the lid for oxygen exchange.

We'll still need a heater and flow. For you and I, nano keepers, these are what I'd recommend. They're cheap and have worked for some time for me on the 5 gallon qt's.

Over time I've purchased several of these because I like having a spare or two on hand at all times. They come in quite handy with all kinds of things, like keeping flow and oxygenation in a bucket during baths or dips or increasing surface agitation in a tank without a major increase in overall flow. They are adjustable, easy to clean, and have been a lifesaver a few times.


I don't love this heater, but not because it doesn't work. I've been using two of them for the better part of a year. In a 5 gallon with the pump linked above running, the tanks are a few degrees warmer than the setting. With a cheap glass aquarium thermometer, I am aware of the discrepancy, so simply set the heater lower, e.g. set at 75°F to achieve 78°F. However, if a container is even slightly smaller, the temp might get even higher, idk, but it might be worth looking for a less powerful one when using on a smaller water volume. I'm pretty sure I've seen heaters with even lower wattages, but I have no experience with those. I should also mention that a 5 gallon is already pretty small. I'd try not to go with much smaller as we want to offer as much comfort in qt as possible.

You may also want to use a drill or a razor to make passages for any cords leaving the container. We'll want that lid clicked all the way on, not propped open by a cord, as nearly all sw fish are known to be jumpers.

So, with a prepared container, a cycled sponge filter, the pump, and the heater, we have a quick and dirty qt that is not so fragile as a glass tank and can easily be kept on the floor under or in front of the main tank. The pump should probably be placed near enough to the surface to create a good ripple for oxygenation, and as mentioned, a regular old glass thermometer is great for monitoring temperature.

But, qt is tough on a fish, and we need to offer some creature comforts. We want to avoid anything porous like rock and sand, as these can absorb the meds that may and probably will be used in qt. Med absorption is a problem on more than one front, not the least of which is that copper treatment entails maintaining a precise therapeutic copper level. If copper is being absorbed into rocks, then it is much harder, if not impossible, to maintain that consistent level we need. Instead of rocks, we want things like multiple PVC elbows large enough for fish to fit inside, as well as perhaps some good old plastic aquarium plants. The other reason it's important to use hides like this is that we can sterilize them between uses with bleach.

Just like any other aquarium, we must top it off, (so best to mark a water line at the time of filling), monitor salinity and nitro parameters, and do water changes, (as dictated by any meds we're using.)

Another thing worth mentioning is that saltwater is by nature, corrosive. I wouldn't recommend leaving this 'tank' running for extended periods of time, and I would recommend thoroughly cleaning everything and dry storing between uses. The sponge from the sponge filter can be rinsed very well, then left in the sun to dry and kill off any remaining living things (I'd give it good old Florida sun for several days, just to be extra safe.) After another good rinse, it can be placed in the filtration on the display so it is ready for next time.

Thank you for the info! I’ll make the sponge filter thing when I get home tomorrow. Will I need to use fish food for an ammonia source? I don’t have pure ammonia on hand. I have a power head, heater, and container on hand, thankfully. Do you think I should quarantine the blenny?

 

You certainly can use fish food as an ammonia source, though I much prefer pure ammonia due to it being more precise and not having to wait for it to break down. Using too much organic 'stuff', (like a whole dead table shrimp in a small tank), can also lead to a very high ammonia spike. A small tank doesn't need to cycle up to 4 or 8ppm, and some say very high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates can stall a cycle.

I found pure ammonia at a dollar store and used the shake test to verify it didn't contain other detergents, as these $1 items aren't big on informational packaging, and it didn't state it was pure. I've now used that to cycle many times and just wanted to let you know it was cheaper and easier than using food.

Quarantining the blenny... Well, when you have a sick fish, you can assume something is in the tank and any other fish are suspect too, even if symptomless. The best case scenario would be to diagnose the issue, then treat all the fish in qt. It's likely that the tank should go fallow to starve out whatever is infecting fish. The tough thing is, we're still very unsure about what is hurting your fish, and if this is something viral or otherwise untreatable... well, then you'll need better advice than I can give.

I had a clown in qt once and he had marine lymphocystis, a virus, not treatable. The best I could do was give him a good diet and clean water so as to boost his immune symptom. Fish can live with this and a strong immune system can help eliminate the symptoms, which are white growths on the fins. I did my best for him, but he was not going to enter the reef tank and bring that virus with him. I had planned on bringing him back to the LFS I got him from, but it's almost 2 hours from my house and I couldn't get to it right away. In the meantime, I bought some better food and enriched it with a vitamin supplement. He did well for a couple weeks, but then a family emergency took us out of town for nearly a week. Prior to, we fed well and lowered salinity a tad in both tanks to account for evaporation. When we returned, parameters were good and salinity was 1.027. Both tanks appeared fine. Fed the fish and went to bed after an exhausting day of travel. Next morning, the poor clown in qt was dead. Not sure what got him as his growth had shrunken and he'd seemed well. Wish he could've been rehomed but the point is, he was never going to our display, and I sterilized the quarantine tank after his death.

Can a viral issue remain in a tank with corals, but no fish? I'd assume no, but I honestly don't know, and this could be the difference in knowing if your display is safe for future fish. This is why I urge you to be as descriptive as possible, take pictures and/or video showing symptoms, and reach out to the best in the community for help identifying your issue. Only then will we best know how to move forward. I'm also on R2R and NanoReef, (though this is my home and I'm not as active there), so you can tag me if you think I might be of help in your quest for a diagnosis.

 

You certainly can use fish food as an ammonia source, though I much prefer pure ammonia due to it being more precise and not having to wait for it to break down. Using too much organic 'stuff', (like a whole dead table shrimp in a small tank), can also lead to a very high ammonia spike. A small tank doesn't need to cycle up to 4 or 8ppm, and some say very high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates can stall a cycle.

I found pure ammonia at a dollar store and used the shake test to verify it didn't contain other detergents, as these $1 items aren't big on informational packaging, and it didn't state it was pure. I've now used that to cycle many times and just wanted to let you know it was cheaper and easier than using food.

Quarantining the blenny... Well, when you have a sick fish, you can assume something is in the tank and any other fish are suspect too, even if symptomless. The best case scenario would be to diagnose the issue, then treat all the fish in qt. It's likely that the tank should go fallow to starve out whatever is infecting fish. The tough thing is, we're still very unsure about what is hurting your fish, and if this is something viral or otherwise untreatable... well, then you'll need better advice than I can give.

I had a clown in qt once and he had marine lymphocystis, a virus, not treatable. The best I could do was give him a good diet and clean water so as to boost his immune symptom. Fish can live with this and a strong immune system can help eliminate the symptoms, which are white growths on the fins. I did my best for him, but he was not going to enter the reef tank and bring that virus with him. I had planned on bringing him back to the LFS I got him from, but it's almost 2 hours from my house and I couldn't get to it right away. In the meantime, I bought some better food and enriched it with a vitamin supplement. He did well for a couple weeks, but then a family emergency took us out of town for nearly a week. Prior to, we fed well and lowered salinity a tad in both tanks to account for evaporation. When we returned, parameters were good and salinity was 1.027. Both tanks appeared fine. Fed the fish and went to bed after an exhausting day of travel. Next morning, the poor clown in qt was dead. Not sure what got him as his growth had shrunken and he'd seemed well. Wish he could've been rehomed but the point is, he was never going to our display, and I sterilized the quarantine tank after his death.

Can a viral issue remain in a tank with corals, but no fish? I'd assume no, but I honestly don't know, and this could be the difference in knowing if your display is safe for future fish. This is why I urge you to be as descriptive as possible, take pictures and/or video showing symptoms, and reach out to the best in the community for help identifying your issue. Only then will we best know how to move forward. I'm also on R2R and NanoReef, (though this is my home and I'm not as active there), so you can tag me if you think I might be of help in your quest for a diagnosis.

HumbleFish said to treat for internal parasites. I guess I’ll do it for the third time :/ This time maybe for 16-21 days to make sure everything is COMPLETELY gone. If the blenny is still alive and refuses to eat medicated food, I’ll separate him and make sure his water is medicated instead. I’ll go see if I can find some cheap pure ammonia at the dollar store tomorrow. Hopefully I can get this all done as quickly as possible.

 

Know that I sympathize with you. It's a rough time and might feel like it's taking forever, but you will get through and find joy on the other side. Don't give up... and good luck! I'm here for you if you need to chat.

Edit: Hey, btw, tropical storm Gordon is swirling above me and I've heard on the news that it's forecasted to strengthen as it hits gulf waters as it moves NW. Don't think it's going up the west coast, and the media mongers like to scare us of course. Still, I'm hoping you and yours stay safe and well today.

 

Know that I sympathize with you. It's a rough time and might feel like it's taking forever, but you will get through and find joy on the other side. Don't give up... and good luck! I'm here for you if you need to chat.

Edit: Hey, btw, tropical storm Gordon is swirling above me and I've heard on the news that it's forecasted to strengthen as it hits gulf waters as it moves NW. Don't think it's going up the west coast, and the media mongers like to scare us of course. Still, I'm hoping you and yours stay safe and well today.

Thank you! Like always, you’ve been of great help recently. I honestly didn’t hear of a storm, but I’ll check into it and see if we’ll be hit. Thanks again

 

Hello. Forgot to mention this. Remember that thing I was talking about a while ago? It was on my orange leptastrea. Stella suggested it was a tube worm. Well, I did some research and found that it’s a vermatid. People suggest killing it, but I’d be worried about stressing out the coral it’s attached to. What do you guys think? Should I leave it alone? The leptastrea doesn’t really seem to care about the webs that land on its polyps.

EDIT: One more thing. I couldn’t find pure ammonia anywhere. Is it possible to take some cycled media, put it in an aerated and heated container, and just leave it there for a fallow period? Or will this ruin the cycle?

 

Well, it's up to you of course, but here's my thinking.

As a vermatid grows, it will produce bigger nets and some corals are aggravated by it in my experience. Also, I'm not sure how they reproduce but I've seen a couple horror stories about vermatid populations getting out of control. I had a pretty large one myself once and it did produce a large net that irritated nearby corals, and even those further away as the net would be released to float around the tank sometimes. So, if I were in your shoes, I'd kill it with fire.

You're also right to worry about the coral though. Some suggest using glue to close up the shell's opening, causing the snail to starve and die within. This is dangerous when it's on a coral though, as something embedded in it that's rotting can cause a localized ammonia spike. Ever heard of polyp bailout? It's when a coral might just drop or abandon one or more polyps... not a good thing and the idea terrified me. My vermatid, (it was kinda huge, could've fit a baby pea into the opening on the shell), was on what was then a single polyp trumpet coral. If that polyp dropped, I wouldn't have a trumpet coral anymore.

It was lucky that the trumpet could still be removed from the tank. So that's what I did... Removed the frag to a workstation, then went to town on that shell with pliers and tweezers. The snail can retract very deep within, so it was important to break off the shell all the way down to its base. I broke off as much as I could see but still worried as the conical part of the shell, which it should have at its base, was not visible to me. So I imagined it was deeply embedded where the shell went into the coral, right where soft flesh met the skeleton. I broke off as much shell as I could easily get to, gave the coral a rinse and a few turkey baster squirts in a bowl of tank water, put it back in the tank, and haven't seen a vermatid since.

Give me a sec... I'm going to find one of our most experienced reefers recent post about dealing with vermatids.

 

Here ya go.

Vermetid snails... They are not bad per se, but they throw slime nets that discourage foraging fish like tangs and blennies from grazing, and IME seem to be able to burrow into hard coral skeletons, especially struggling hard corals. Corals can generally survive this assault, but it does injure them and may finish off a weaker animal.

IME they spread like wild fire in the right conditions. Once you have them, I am not aware of a way to eradicate them. I haven't been able to find anything reef safe with caution to eat them although something in the wild must otherwise all rock in the ocean would be covered in them! There was a suggestion that bumble bee snails may eat them, but with how fast they spread in my tank, I was not able to verify that.

The best method we found for keeping them under control: using bone cutters, cut the tubes off of the rocks/corals they are on. Some people suggest super gluing the tube shut, but that is actually really hard to do under water! Also, that can cause a localized ammonia spike as the worm dies and decomposes damaging nearby coral (took a rock out, glued the hole shut, put back in the water and coral on the rock took damage a bit after). I hate them if you haven't guessed.

After having seen more than I would ever wish on anyone, there is just something about the shape of the shell... I am not very good at identifying other tube worms, but I am pretty good at "Vermetid!" and "Not Vermetid!" Also, I have never had feather dusters or tube worms spread rapidly whereas vermetids tend to.

For 100% verification though, when the snail is near the entrance of the tube it has two antennae, and when you throw food in your tank you will see a slime net thrown out of the tube. This video is probably the best I have seen of large vermetid snails.

An adult vermetid gets to be larger than a typical tube worm, but like everything, they had to start out smaller! When I have been trying to clean a coral skeleton of them, I have seen young ones that are tiny. If they didn't spread like they do, I wouldn't mind having one or two of them... they are pretty interesting animals!

 

Here ya go.

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately, I would not be able to remove the vermatid without damaging several polyps. The polyps are basically covering half of its shell, which is fairly small compared to the one you described. Do they reproduce asexually? I have yet to see another one so far and I’m hoping it stays that way. Also, please read my edit on the previous post about the vermatid. Thanks

 

Okay, so just leave the vermetid be I suppose, but, (lol, as always), be careful to keep the water clean so you keep their population low. I did do a quick search to see if I could find info on reproduction... and ended up spending a bit time on it.

This is the write-up I read back when I had one, and what made me decide to get rid of mine. There are many species of vermetid, and the author has experienced polyp bailout when dealing with larger species like I had, and possibly when the population reached plague proportions. So, as always, clean water is key as your tank will not support a large population without enough suspended nutrients to feed them all.

Vermetid Snails in the Aquarium – Donya Quick's Website

... and here's another good one, linked by the author of the write-up above. Here's where I found out that they do NOT reproduce asexually.



Yep, read that whole thing this time around.

The general consensus being that vermetids are common, almost unavoidable, and a sign of a healthy amount of biodiversity in the tank. These authors do not worry unless they grow to plague proportions or visibly irritate other life in the tank, which I believed to be true in my case... since it was just a huge species, and I was a new reefer worried about a little coral. Burrowing in corals can (but might not), become a problem. The mucus net it actually a food source for some species, but idk... I saw how it would cover other corals and they didn't seem to like it. Perhaps they were eating it or perhaps it was on old zoas that never thrived for me anyway. Thinking back, I'm sure that the trumpet itself was irritated, but this could have been due to sharing skeleton space with the vermetid.


As for the filter media, you'd have to feed it to maintain the cycle. In a small container, a flake or two would probably be enough, given every third day or so. You'd also want to make sure nitrates don't get very, very high, so you'd have to do water changes on the container, though you could probably do them less frequently than the tank. In other words, it's possible, but like the tank, it would need maintenance to some extent.

 

Okay, so just leave the vermetid be I suppose, but, (lol, as always), be careful to keep the water clean so you keep their population low. I did do a quick search to see if I could find info on reproduction... and ended up spending a bit time on it.

This is the write-up I read back when I had one, and what made me decide to get rid of mine. There are many species of vermetid, and the author has experienced polyp bailout when dealing with larger species like I had, and possibly when the population reached plague proportions. So, as always, clean water is key as your tank will not support a large population without enough suspended nutrients to feed them all.

Vermetid Snails in the Aquarium – Donya Quick's Website

... and here's another good one, linked by the author of the write-up above. Here's where I found out that they do NOT reproduce asexually.



Yep, read that whole thing this time around.

The general consensus being that vermetids are common, almost unavoidable, and a sign of a healthy amount of biodiversity in the tank. These authors do not worry unless they grow to plague proportions or visibly irritate other life in the tank, which I believed to be true in my case... since it was just a huge species, and I was a new reefer worried about a little coral. Burrowing in corals can (but might not), become a problem. The mucus net it actually a food source for some species, but idk... I saw how it would cover other corals and they didn't seem to like it. Perhaps they were eating it or perhaps it was on old zoas that never thrived for me anyway. Thinking back, I'm sure that the trumpet itself was irritated, but this could have been due to sharing skeleton space with the vermetid.


As for the filter media, you'd have to feed it to maintain the cycle. In a small container, a flake or two would probably be enough, given every third day or so. You'd also want to make sure nitrates don't get very, very high, so you'd have to do water changes on the container, though you could probably do them less frequently than the tank. In other words, it's possible, but like the tank, it would need maintenance to some extent.

Thanks again! I’ll read the articles when I have time. I’m leaving for school soon, though. I actually caught one of my old hermit crabs eating the web, so it makes sense for it to be a food source. That’s why they were always on top of the leptastrea. Do you think mine will grow, even though it’s basically inside of the coral?

EDIT: I read the first article and skimmed through the second. It seems that they reproduce sexually; do you think I have more than one vermatid in this tank? One more thing: I’m testing phosphates when I get home today. Performed a water change yesterday. Can’t find the blenny, so I’m going to assume he was eaten by the pistol shrimp. It would be weird for it to be in the caves, as the goby and shrimp would have chased him out. My schedule is really weird, so I don’t really know what time to start feeding them medicated food. I can’t feed them at 6AM when I wake up because they’re all sleeping. I could feed them at 2PM when I get home, but then 12 hours later would be 2AM and I would not wake up at that time just to feed them. Is it okay if I feed them twice a day, a bit less than twelve hours apart? I usually go to bed around 8 or 9, so it would be 6 or 7 hours apart instead of 12.

 

The phosphates went up. Not by a lot. It seems to be in between 0.25 and 0.50, which is where I was at before. I’m thinking it’s because I was never able to find the blenny’s body. Does that sound reasonable? I would rather wait out this increase in phosphates for a few months than disturb all of my other fish trying to find the body. My pistol shrimp would have eaten some of it, anyway. Do you guys think adding more coral would help? Maybe they’ll take in the phosphates. None of my other corals seem to mind it. Or will this just increase phosphates?

 

Well, I'd say some corals are more or less sensitive to phosphates but I don't think they use phosphates at all, so I don't see how it would help. So, add more if you want to, but stick with hardy LPS for now.

As for the fish, well, if his remains are already leading to a noticeable rise in phosphates, it may be a bit late to worry about it, so I probably wouldn't disturb everyone either. I would do extra water changes, but probably not more than two 20% in a week. Also, don't forget that absorbing media like ChemiPure, (let's call it cp from here for ease), become exhausted over time. It makes sense that with higher phosphate levels, the phosphate removing media may be exhausted faster. Now, there's also different chemical media options that you could also consider. I think cp blue is already pretty great, but cp elite actually has gfo in it, that being the stuff that is used in reactors to reduce phosphates in larger systems. Perhaps it would work better for you, or maybe Seachems Phosguard, or even a phosphate reducing filter pad.

One thing's for sure, phosphate is the thing that green hair algae loves the most. Dealing with a little of that myself right now and it's not fun.

 

Well, I'd say some corals are more or less sensitive to phosphates but I don't think they use phosphates at all, so I don't see how it would help. So, add more if you want to, but stick with hardy LPS for now.

As for the fish, well, if his remains are already leading to a noticeable rise in phosphates, it may be a bit late to worry about it, so I probably wouldn't disturb everyone either. I would do extra water changes, but probably not more than two 20% in a week. Also, don't forget that absorbing media like ChemiPure, (let's call it cp from here for ease), become exhausted over time. It makes sense that with higher phosphate levels, the phosphate removing media may be exhausted faster. Now, there's also different chemical media options that you could also consider. I think cp blue is already pretty great, but cp elite actually has gfo in it, that being the stuff that is used in reactors to reduce phosphates in larger systems. Perhaps it would work better for you, or maybe Seachems Phosguard, or even a phosphate reducing filter pad.

One thing's for sure, phosphate is the thing that green hair algae loves the most. Dealing with a little of that myself right now and it's not fun.

All right, thanks. I’ll check out whatever my pet store has in stock of phosphate removing media. I guess I’ll stay away from adding any livestock to the tank until they get somewhat low.

 

I had a question a while back that nobody responded to. Does my clownfish need a companion after the smaller one died? Or should I just stick to other fish? I won’t be purchasing anything anytime soon, but I will at some point. I don’t know if I want another clownfish, but I’ll buy one if she needs a partner. I know that I want to get some type of blenny.

stella1979 I just now purchased API Phos-Zorb because I don’t want to wait for ChemiPure to arrive in the mail. If it works well, I’ll definitely continue its use.

 

Phos-zorb should work it looks just like the granules in chemipure and phos guard

 

Phos-zorb should work it looks just like the granules in chemipure and phos guard

Thank you

 

I’m happy to say that my tank is nearly phosphate-free. It’s between 0.03 and 0.10 ppm. API performed much better than I expected. The comparison between how fast API worked versus ChemiPure is just unbelievable. I’m super excited about this. Still would like to know what fish you guys think I should get in the future. Should I get a clownfish to pair with my current one? It wouldn’t be a frostbite, obviously. I heard that you can mix species, though, so I’m interested in doing that. I may just leave her single, though, if she doesn’t need to be in a pair. However, I would like to see her swim with a little buddy in unison again. They were so cute together Maybe another blenny? I don’t know. You guys let me know if you have any ideas. I’m definitely going to look into an anemone once I get the tank fully stocked with the fish I want. And there’s no doubt that I’ll be quarantining new arrivals from now on. I’m just so happy to see the phosphates down for once

 

Sorry A... missed the last few posts here. I'm usually pretty good about finding what I was not alerted for, so I really am sorry that I slacked on that and missed your clownfish question.

No, the clown absolutely does not need a friend, so that decision is entirely up to you. Keep in mind that the older a clown gets, the less likely she will be of accepting a newcomer. Chances of pairing your girl up now, after she's established herself and claimed that territory as her own... Well, it's not impossible, but keep in mind that it's in a clown's nature to be territorial and aggressive. They are damsels after all. So, this is why when a pair is wanted, it is highly advised to get a couple juvies, from a group that is already together at the LFS. I would say that you need to weigh your desire for a pair against the issues that may arise from them not getting along. Chances are pretty high that you'd become attached to a new fish and would have a hard time returning him, but if your girl doesn't accept him, she might just kill him. Now, this is not a sure thing, but you have to prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.

I'm so, so glad you're getting those phosphates gone! For myself, I was watching the growth rate of gha increase and just knew that phosphates must be to blame. I'd been overfeeding in an effort to get food to all the fish with a piggy clown in the way, and honestly, I just didn't want to see how bad it was. Well, last trip to the LFS, I picked up a phosphate reducing filter pad... then I figured I had to know what level I was starting at so I could judge how well the new product worked. So, I finally ran the test, and guess what? Phosphates were not so bad at .08. I thought it would be so much worse!

However, there are relationships going on in our tanks that I still only have a very limited knowledge of. For example, if there are phosphates, well, there should be nitrates as well, because neither is so bad as long as they're in balance with each other and other reef tank factors. Furthermore, if we're running high lighting and elevated alkalinity, we should really not be running ultra low nutrients... so in those cases, we should have measurable nitrates and phosphates. Hmmm, so, there is probably an imbalance in my tank. Lighting is probably slightly high, alk is pretty normal around 8.5-9dkH, nitrates are a big fat zero, and phosphates are 0.08ppm. Not perfect by any means, but things are working out. I'm still gonna work on getting those phosphates down because my biggest eyesore is the little bit of gha growing on the top ridge of my large rock on the right. Corals are happy... but perhaps they'd be happier with more nutrients instead of less. I suppose I may work on getting nitrates up one of these days... but, one thing at a time and all that

 

However, there are relationships going on in our tanks that I still only have a very limited knowledge of. For example, if there are phosphates, well, there should be as well, because neither is so bad as long as they're in balance with each other and other reef tank factors. Furthermore, if we're running high and elevated , we should really not be running ultra low nutrients... so in those cases, we should have measurable nitrates and phosphates. Hmmm, so, there is probably an imbalance in my tank. Lighting is probably slightly high, alk is pretty normal around 8.5-9dkH, nitrates are a big fat zero, and phosphates are 0.08ppm. Not perfect by any means, but things are working out. I'm still gonna work on getting those phosphates down because my biggest eyesore is the little bit of gha growing on the top ridge of my large rock on the right. Corals are happy... but perhaps they'd be happier with more nutrients instead of less. I suppose I may work on getting nitrates up one of these days... but, one thing at a time and all that

You should try and get your nutrients balanced around the redfiled ratio. (quoted stella just because she mentioned it) Basically you want your nitrate and phosphate in a 16:1 ratio. So, if you have 10 ppm nitrates, you want 0.6-0.7 phosphates. For 5 ppm nitrate you want around 0.3 ppm phosphate. If your running about 10 ppm nitrates you'll want alk higher too, 9-10. You don't want low alk with high nutrients, you'll burn out your corals.

 

Sorry A... missed the last few posts here. I'm usually pretty good about finding what I was not alerted for, so I really am sorry that I slacked on that and missed your clownfish question.

No, the clown absolutely does not need a friend, so that decision is entirely up to you. Keep in mind that the older a clown gets, the less likely she will be of accepting a newcomer. Chances of pairing your girl up now, after she's established herself and claimed that territory as her own... Well, it's not impossible, but keep in mind that it's in a clown's nature to be territorial and aggressive. They are damsels after all. So, this is why when a pair is wanted, it is highly advised to get a couple juvies, from a group that is already together at the LFS. I would say that you need to weigh your desire for a pair against the issues that may arise from them not getting along. Chances are pretty high that you'd become attached to a new fish and would have a hard time returning him, but if your girl doesn't accept him, she might just kill him. Now, this is not a sure thing, but you have to prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.

I'm so, so glad you're getting those phosphates gone! For myself, I was watching the growth rate of gha increase and just knew that phosphates must be to blame. I'd been overfeeding in an effort to get food to all the fish with a piggy clown in the way, and honestly, I just didn't want to see how bad it was. Well, last trip to the LFS, I picked up a phosphate reducing filter pad... then I figured I had to know what level I was starting at so I could judge how well the new product worked. So, I finally ran the test, and guess what? Phosphates were not so bad at .08. I thought it would be so much worse!

However, there are relationships going on in our tanks that I still only have a very limited knowledge of. For example, if there are phosphates, well, there should be nitrates as well, because neither is so bad as long as they're in balance with each other and other reef tank factors. Furthermore, if we're running high lighting and elevated alkalinity, we should really not be running ultra low nutrients... so in those cases, we should have measurable nitrates and phosphates. Hmmm, so, there is probably an imbalance in my tank. Lighting is probably slightly high, alk is pretty normal around 8.5-9dkH, nitrates are a big fat zero, and phosphates are 0.08ppm. Not perfect by any means, but things are working out. I'm still gonna work on getting those phosphates down because my biggest eyesore is the little bit of gha growing on the top ridge of my large rock on the right. Corals are happy... but perhaps they'd be happier with more nutrients instead of less. I suppose I may work on getting nitrates up one of these days... but, one thing at a time and all that

No worries. I’m just glad to see a response. After thinking about it, I’d rather her be alone. Maybe she’ll end up hosting the anemone I get in the future. That’ll definitely be fun to watch. However, the tank certainly looks empty without the blenny and other clownfish around. I don’t know how I forgot to mention this. I kind of forget to mention a lot of things. I got a pygmy wrasse. I’ve had her for about two weeks. I actually went to the fish store to pick up a few necessities, but apparently my special order arrived a lot earlier than expected. I didn’t have a quarantine tank ready and I really didn’t want them to put her in a tank with other fish who all tend to have internal parasites. I ended up just taking her and putting her in my tank. She’s doing really well. I watched closely for an entire week to make sure her poop was normal and she wasn’t showing any signs of external issues. Everything is normal as far as I can see. She eats well and is always exploring random places in the tank. It’s the yellow banded Pygmy wrasse (I think that’s what they’re called). Got her for the bulk price. She’s a lot less skittish than what I expected. Not skittish at all, actually. I’m able to see her all the time. Even with this new addition, the tank is missing something. I have enough fish for the bottom. I just want something for the mid section that will swim around like the clownfish. I will make sure to set up a quarantine tank earlier than necessary just in case something unexpected happens again. Do you guys have any fish in mind? I’m definitely thinking of getting a blenny. Maybe two more fish will do depending on the size and activity.

Oh, and good luck with your phosphates, stella1979 I would totally suggest API’s phosphate removing media after what I experienced. It completely exceeded my expectations.

 

Thanks.

I'm so glad things are going well with the wrasse. Can't wait to see her.

As for another open water swimmer in a nano tank, well, I've wrestled with a decision on that for a long time too. I'd like another fish in the 20 gallon long and have considered a lot of them. For a while, I thought I might try a pygmy wrasse or a royal gramma, but I have no desire nor room for a fish that stays near the rocks in the bottom half of the tank. So, lately, I've been thinking about a bengaiI cardinal since I'm actually quite fond of their finnage, pattern, and even the black and white that would look so good among colorful coral. The only problem, I've been told these guys generally pick a spot and stay in it, not swimming around much at all. Suppose this fish picks the area behind a big rock and stays out of sight. That would not fulfill my hopes of just a little more activity in the upper half of the tank, but I'm not sure a friendly fish that will do that exists.

I have been seeing someone with much more experience than I around here lately, so maybe he has an idea for us. What do you say coralbandit ? Can nano keepers happily house an open water somewhat active fish along with a clown and a couple of small bottom dwellers in tanks less than 30 gallons? If so, what might that fish be?

 

My tanks for marine are always larger but I wouldn't have a marine tank without a royal gramma myself. I have also seen fire fish in small tanks but make sure you have a net top since they are jumpers.Clowns are happy alone and my 5 year old picaso female just killed the male I added finally after 4 months .
I thought she liked him but ?

 

My tanks for marine are always larger but I wouldn't have a marine tank without a royal gramma myself. I have also seen fire fish in small tanks but make sure you have a net top since they are jumpers.Clowns are happy alone and my 5 year old picaso female just killed the male I added finally after 4 months .
I thought she liked him but ?

Aww, that stinks!

Would you please elaborate on your love of royal grammas? Why wouldn't you have a tank without them? If you don't mind my asking. Not to hijack this thread, but I think the OP and I may eventually have similar stock. Mine currently includes a firefish who occupies the bottom half, a goby that does as well, and they both hide in their lairs half the time. Wouldn't a gramma want to occupy the same space as those fish? My reading tells me they will but I have no real experience seeing a gramma's behavior outside of those cruddy fish boxes at the LFS.

 

Hey there! Ill have to take time to read your whole thread soon as part of my research phase

But do you mind if I ask your current stock in your 25gal?
Or
I'd be thrilled if you could maybe post some update pictures ?

This is your thread so no pressure just thought it couldn't hurt to ask

 

Aww, that stinks!

Would you please elaborate on your love of royal grammas? Why wouldn't you have a tank without them? If you don't mind my asking. Not to hijack this thread, but I think the OP and I may eventually have similar stock. Mine currently includes a firefish who occupies the bottom half, a goby that does as well, and they both hide in their lairs half the time. Wouldn't a gramma want to occupy the same space as those fish? My reading tells me they will but I have no real experience seeing a gramma's behavior outside of those cruddy fish boxes at the LFS.

I’ve actually had an interest in royal grammas, but steered away from them because I was told they’d be too aggressive. If they’re an open swimmer and will get along with all of my current fish, then I’d love to try it out. As for cardinal fish. I never had a great experience with them. They were part of my first stocking in a ten-gallon tank. They just stayed near the filtration. Then again, they were all infested with internal parasites and wouldn’t eat a thing. That and the tank was too small, so there wasn’t much activity going around. I’ve considered trying them out again, as they certainly are a beautiful fish.

My tanks for marine are always larger but I wouldn't have a marine tank without a royal gramma myself. I have also seen fire fish in small tanks but make sure you have a net top since they are jumpers.Clowns are happy alone and my 5 year old picaso female just killed the male I added finally after 4 months .
I thought she liked him but ?

Thank you I would also like to know why you love royal grammas so much. Do you think they’d be a good fit for my current stocking?

Hey there! Ill have to take time to read your whole thread soon as part of my research phase

But do you mind if I ask your current stock in your 25gal?
Or
I'd be thrilled if you could maybe post some update pictures ?

This is your thread so no pressure just thought it couldn't hurt to ask

HI My current stocking includes one frostbite clownfish (used to be two, but long story short, she basically killed the male after he got weak from a parasite), one yellow banded Pygmy wrasse, a yellow watchman goby and tiger pistol shrimp pair, and two trochus snails. My coral includes two mushrooms, one Kenya tree, one leptastrea, and one bird’s nest. I’m looking forward to getting around two more fish, as two have recently died due to my lack of quarantining them (clownfish and blenny), which will never happen again from this point forward. I would also like to get more coral and an anemone for my clownfish to possibly host. The lights are currently off in my tank, but I will definitely get you some pics when I get back from school I hope you find this thread useful!

 

All righty! Here are my update pictures:

 

I just think the overall disposition of the gramma is greater then most similar choices .Psuedos are mean ,and some dotty backs can be tough.
The royal gramma is like a barking dog. I have seen mine [had them since the 80's] go up to almost every fish they could with their mouth wide open like they were going to bite them ,all tough and stuff. Never has any gramma I owned bit a single fish. I also wouldn't have a marine tank without a mandarin or ruby red. They are great fish that if you can grow pods you should have. Since my tanks are bigger I will add my have to have fish,a marine betta[comet]. I have been doing marine fish since the 80s so I just know what I like.

 

All righty! Here are my update pictures:

Very pretty! Thank you

 

Very pretty! Thank you

No problem

 

Looks fantastic! Love the goby. Corals are growing for sure!

 

Thanks! Speaking of their growth, do you think it’d be necessary to spot feed them?

 

I think I’m due for an update. Several things have happened recently:

• My DI resin wore out again, so I had to skip Sunday’s water change and order a new pack. Will be performing a water change today and this Sunday to make up for this.

• My phosphates have stayed at around 0.10 ppm, even without the water change last week. However, I have seen a lot of spot algae recently as well as some type of white algae that hangs off the glass. From far away, it looks like white specks, but up close, you can tell it’s some type of algae. I actually had this algae on my glass for a while now and never happened to mention it. It’s easy to wipe off, but always comes back a few days later. I’m wondering if maybe this is caused by an imbalance of nitrates and phosphates. Haven’t checked the nitrates in a while because they always test at 0 ppm, but I will after the water change today. Anyway, the snails seem to think this is paradise. They never run out of algae to eat.

• I finished treating the tank for parasites. I actually finished this a while ago. All feces is normal and the behavior of my fish has not changed. I’m not worried about my clownfish anymore. She seems to do perfectly fine on her own. It’s as if she never had a partner to swim around with. However, I’ve been catching her nip at the leptastrea recently. I have no idea why this is happening. The goby and pistol shrimp are doing great as always. The newest addition (wrasse) is doing great as well. She’s always out and about.

• All of my coral seem well. The Kenya tree is getting bigger every day. Seems to be the fastest grower. Bird’s nest looks gorgeous. Leptastrea is great, although it seems very sensitive to the smallest changes in its environment, from flow to lighting. Sometimes I’ll open the drawers under the tank and it’ll close because of the vibrations. I’m assuming this is normal, though. Obviously, the clownfish nipping my leptastrea is a problem. What do I do about this and why is it happening? Perhaps she’s trying to host it? It’s closed in the picture because of my clownfish. I don’t remember whether I said this or not, but I had previously lost one of my mushrooms. The flow just carried it away. I found it a month or two ago wedged in a tiny crack in one of my rocks. It never opens up as much as it used to, but it still opens. I’ll try to get a picture. I’m scared to mess with it because I don’t want to lose it again. The other mushroom is doing just fine.

• I lowered the flow a tiny bit because it seemed as though my clownfish was having trouble swimming. I’ll get a picture of the settings.

• Now that the phosphates are down, I’ve been considering getting more fish. I’m leaning towards another fang blenny. I also want one more fish, but I don’t know if that would overstock the tank. Once all the new fish are added, I want to purchase an anemone. I’ve been waiting a long time for this. Can’t wait After the anemone is established, I’ll just keep collecting coral until I’m happy with the tank’s set-up. Is it okay to get a mix of soft and hard corals? I see tanks with either just soft or just hard corals, so I was just wondering.

• Edit: Just remembered to mention that the vermatid on my leptastrea is growing fast. I’m worried about that.

 

Great update!

So, can you remind me of the tank's measurements, please? That and the position of your powerhead will tell us more of what we need to know. I can see that the Jebao is set to constant flow at a little more than half speed, which may be fine depending on how things are positioned and the dimensions of the tank. Don't forget to keep an eye out for dead spots and use your turkey baster.

It seems the biggest concern in the leptastrea, so here's my experience with them. I have an orange one that has big fat polyps and he grows very, very slowly, I also have a light purple blue-eyed guy that's called Grapes & Limes, which has smaller, more delicate polyps, but it grows like a beast and there's way more of them. The blue guy is probably 10 times his original frag size, but the bigger polyp orange guy is only about 3 times his original size. They are both in moderate light and flow and sit just in front of a happy little acro & the birdsnest.

Was your leptastrea closed a lot before the clown started messing with it? If not, the clown is definitely the biggest problem. Do you think the vermetid might be bothering it too? You know, you can always bust up that snail's tube and he'll hide inside, then build again. Someday, you may be willing to sacrifice a few polyps to get rid of it. That actually happened with my blue guy, who grew over this pointy thing, probably the beginning of a tiny tubeworm. The coral grew and was happy, but that little point always grew algae on it, though I cleaned it regularly. It looked like crud and one day, I couldn't look at it anymore and attacked, taking off that little point. It made a little hole in the coral where a few polyps had busted off. A few weeks later, the hole was closed with new polyps. A long time later, I found blue leptastrea growing in the sand! I thought it was a baby RFA. Jarred him up and fed him for a few weeks before investigating further and finding my error.

As for the clown... that's weird, never heard of a clown attacking coral. If this is happening regularly, that is definitely a problem for the coral. I suppose you could try moving the leptastrea and hope the clown doesn't follow, and/or, try to build a cage over the coral. Light and flow would need to get through though. Idk, perhaps something out of plastic canvas. You could also try putting the clown in a 'time-out' in a breeder box or something when you see him exhibiting the behavior. Perhaps you just have to break the pattern.

I do think you could house 5 small fish, the shrimp, an anemone and coral in a 25 gallon, as long as there is territory for all and you keep an eye on parameters so you'll know how things are going.

 

Great update!

So, can you remind me of the tank's measurements, please? That and the position of your powerhead will tell us more of what we need to know. I can see that the Jebao is set to constant flow at a little more than half speed, which may be fine depending on how things are positioned and the dimensions of the tank. Don't forget to keep an eye out for dead spots and use your turkey baster.

It seems the biggest concern in the leptastrea, so here's my experience with them. I have an orange one that has big fat polyps and he grows very, very slowly, I also have a light purple blue-eyed guy that's called Grapes & Limes, which has smaller, more delicate polyps, but it grows like a beast and there's way more of them. The blue guy is probably 10 times his original frag size, but the bigger polyp orange guy is only about 3 times his original size. They are both in moderate light and flow and sit just in front of a happy little acro & the birdsnest.

Was your leptastrea closed a lot before the clown started messing with it? If not, the clown is definitely the biggest problem. Do you think the vermetid might be bothering it too? You know, you can always bust up that snail's tube and he'll hide inside, then build again. Someday, you may be willing to sacrifice a few polyps to get rid of it. That actually happened with my blue guy, who grew over this pointy thing, probably the beginning of a tiny tubeworm. The coral grew and was happy, but that little point always grew algae on it, though I cleaned it regularly. It looked like crud and one day, I couldn't look at it anymore and attacked, taking off that little point. It made a little hole in the coral where a few polyps had busted off. A few weeks later, the hole was closed with new polyps. A long time later, I found blue leptastrea growing in the sand! I thought it was a baby RFA. Jarred him up and fed him for a few weeks before investigating further and finding my error.

As for the clown... that's weird, never heard of a clown attacking coral. If this is happening regularly, that is definitely a problem for the coral. I suppose you could try moving the leptastrea and hope the clown doesn't follow, and/or, try to build a cage over the coral. Light and flow would need to get through though. Idk, perhaps something out of plastic canvas. You could also try putting the clown in a 'time-out' in a breeder box or something when you see him exhibiting the behavior. Perhaps you just have to break the pattern.

I do think you could house 5 small fish, the shrimp, an anemone and coral in a 25 gallon, as long as there is territory for all and you keep an eye on parameters so you'll know how things are going.

I honestly always forget the measurements. I think it might be 25x12x15 or something. Should be up in the thread if you dig deep or in our private messages regarding the parasite my fish had previously. The wave maker is on the left side of the tank. I’ll get a picture of it’s position relative to the rocks. I started turkey blasting during water changes only. Is that all right or should I continue it daily?

Well, I can’t really say whether the leptastrea was closed a lot previously. Everything has always bothered it in the past, from hermit crabs to shrimp. Once I got rid of those, it was open pretty much all day other than when it freaks out over vibrations from the drawers. I try to be as gentle as possible when opening and closing them. Nowadays, it’s kind of on and off. It’ll be open when I get home and the next thing I know, it’s halfway closed. Now, usually the vermatid only shoots out its webs when I’m feeding, yet the leptastrea doesn’t ever seemed bother by those webs (to my surprise). In fact, the webs will be on its polyps for a while and then they’ll just disappear. Maybe it consumes them? Maybe it gets taken away by the current? I don’t know. All I know is that it doesn’t really care. It mostly seems to get irritated by the vibrations, when I move the light around, or when I turn the flow off to feed. Every time it closes, though, it opens up almost completely after ten minutes or so. The clownfish only recently started messing with it. I think I started noticing it yesterday. Just a nip or two. Occasionally, she’ll hover over it and wiggle like she always does, but that’s about it. I wouldn’t call it an attack, but almost as if she’s gently searching it for food. I don’t know. She’s a weird fish, like all clownfish.

Anyway, hopefully you can get a good idea of the flow with these pictures.

EDIT: Good morning. Clownfish is still doing her thing with the leptastrea. Is it possible that she’s trying to host it? She seems to stay around the coral as if it’s an anemone. I also checked the dimensions. They’re a bit weird: 24x12.5x19

EDIT: I actually just did some quick research and found the tank brand. I got it from a yard sale, so I never actually knew it. The tank is a 26-gallon Aqueon bowfront. I’ll get a picture of the information, including the most accurate dimensions. Mine weren’t exact.

 

Uh, something weird happened today. Remember that mushroom I said I lost a while ago and found it again, seemingly in an area that stressed it out? Well, turns out this little mushroom moved itself right next to where my other mushroom was. It literally kicked it out of its spot and he’s nowhere to be found. I have no idea what to do about this. Does this happen with mushrooms?

 

Hmmm, that is weird. I've never had a mushroom that moved itself, so am no real help here. All I can say is that I lost a mushroom for a few weeks, only for it to eventually turn up, so I hope the same happens for you.

Sorry I've been a little absent! Life gets in the way sometimes but I'm trying to keep up. You can always shoot me a PM or a tag if you need me.