Add Fish When Cycling? Question 

BillCNC

Valued Member
Messages
128
Reaction score
66
Points
38
Experience
More than 10 years
Fancytailaquatics said:
Simple, time. They said adding fish food, that is all it takes to start!
And one could fill a car tire by blowing into it as well. There are many road's to every destination. Some use the scenic route and some use the Freeway.

I personally start with fish and use Seachem's Stability and follow the direction's to the letter and it work's ever single time. In fact, I just picked some more up today at Petco.

Regards
Bill

Fancytailaquatics said:
I don't buy it at all, sorry with that stuff. I have had reps try to sell me on it, nope. I have not seen the science to back it up, does it live in a 100-degree warehouse or 32 in the winter in a bottle. How long can it live in an airtight bottle and survive? Show me the reports you have. I say it simply is a placebo effect and people thinks it works and poisoning the water.
It would be simple enough to do a side by side test with a couple of 10 gal. if available. Two exact setups side by side with air driven sponge filters. One with a bacteria supplement and one with any other method and see which one has the better numbers. However, for the test to have any validity, one would have to honestly try to prove themselves wrong, ... not right. I would consider it a valid test if one couldn't sink their own battleship if they truly tried.

Regards
Bill.
 

Fancytailaquatics

New Member
Messages
38
Reaction score
18
Points
18
BillCNC said:
It would be simple enough to do a side by side test with a couple of 10 gal. if available. Two exact setups side by side with air driven sponge filters. One with a bacteria supplement and one with any other method and see which one has the better numbers. However, for the test to have any validity, one would have to honestly try to prove themselves wrong, ... not right. I would consider it a valid test if one couldn't sink their own battleship if they truly tried.

Regards
Bill.
I would consider a true test, is the one that does not hurt the fish, which it seems you don't care on a painless method.
 

BillCNC

Valued Member
Messages
128
Reaction score
66
Points
38
Experience
More than 10 years
Fancytailaquatics said:
I would consider a true test, is the one that does not hurt the fish, which it seems you don't care on a painless method.
Hurt the fish, ... Say What?

Regards
Bill
 

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
Fancytailaquatics said:
I am a licensed business with a resale certificate and breeder, I would never sell that . If you believe in it, fine, but it is snake oil honestly. You see my name, look me up on the internet.
It's not snake oil and it does work but not instantly as it's manufacturers imply. It rarely contains enough viable ammonia oxydizing bacteria in it to have much effect on ammonia levels in a cycling tank. What people usually see is a total absence of nitrites during cycling. So, it doesn't instantly make a tank safe for fish but it does significantly shorten fishless cycling times (in most cases, it eliminates the need for additional nitrite oxidizing bacteria propagation) especially when using pure ammonia as your ammonia source.
 

Fancytailaquatics

New Member
Messages
38
Reaction score
18
Points
18
BillCNC said:
Hurt the fish, ... Say What?

Regards
Bill
They don't as you suggest they do. I have been in this business as an owner/keeper/over 10 years of experience. You believe what you want and show me case studies and you cannot. I have contacted Seachem myself, they will not provide but basic information. They told me Prime is only a 48-hour fix to help in emergencies. A band-aid, not a solution. This is no different than the product you mention. We need to help people, not give them with false information.
Let's teach them to cycle CORRECTLY and avoid the lies and myths, please!
 

Donthemon

Well Known Member
Messages
976
Reaction score
644
Points
128
Experience
4 years
Safestart works fine if you follow the instructions. Using fishfood is the worst. Takes for ever and a inconsistent supply of ammonia. Better to use pure ammonia dosing if you are going fishless.
 

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
Momgoose56 said:
It's not snake oil and it does work but not instantly as it's manufacturers imply. It rarely contains enough viable ammonia oxydizing bacteria in it to have much effect on ammonia levels in a cycling tank. What people usually see is a total absence of nitrites during cycling. So, it doesn't instantly make a tank safe for fish but it does significantly shorten fishless cycling times (in most cases, it eliminates the need for additional nitrite oxidizing bacteria propagation) especially when using pure ammonia as your ammonia source.
You can do fish-in cycling with it if you keep ammonia levels low (<1 ppm) and dose the tank with an ammonia binding product like Prime or Ammolock to protect the fish already in the tank. Read some of the success stories and other posts on here Fancytailaquatics, there are many. I never recommend fish- in cycling but as you probably know, people buy tanks and put fish in without ever knowing anything aboot cycling a tank. Then come to places like Fishlore to get help fixing their sick tanks and sicker fish. TSS and other bacteria cultures and expert advice from people on these forums, do help speed those tanks through an otherwise much more deadly cycling process and help save a lot of fish and new fish owners sanity.
 

Fancytailaquatics

New Member
Messages
38
Reaction score
18
Points
18
Donthemon said:
Safestart works fine if you follow the instructions. Using fishfood is the worst. Takes for ever and a inconsistent supply of ammonia. Better to use pure ammonia dosing if you are going fishless.
Yes, pure ammonia from Ace Hardware is the best to go!

Momgoose56 said:
You can do fish-in cycling with it if you keep ammonia levels low (<1 ppm) and dose the tank with an ammonia binding product like Prime or Ammolock to protect the fish already in the tank. Read some of the success stories and other posts on here Fancytailaquatics, there are many. I never recommend fish- in cycling but as you probably know, people buy tanks and put fish in without ever knowing anything aboot cycling a tank. Then come to places like Fishlore to get help fixing their sick tanks and sicker fish. TSS and other bacteria cultures and expert advice from people on these forums, do help speed those tanks through an otherwise much more deadly cycling process and help save a lot of fish and new fish owners sanity.
Sadly, I will not disagree. But the original Poster said doing it by fish food which is great, can we stay with that?
 

Attachments

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
Fancytailaquatics said:
Yes, pure ammonia from Ace Hardware is the best to go!
That's what I use! A lot of our members are from other countries that don't have ACE hardware, so we often refer them to Dr. Tim's ammonia or a source online.

Fancytailaquatics said:
Sadly, I will not disagree. But the original Poster said doing it by fish food which is great, can we stay with that?
It takes longer, is less controllable but when people want to do it that way, that's up to them. I always suggest using ammonia for fishless cycling to prevent exactly what is happening here- impatience and premature introduction of fish to an uncycled tank.
 

Fancytailaquatics

New Member
Messages
38
Reaction score
18
Points
18
Fancytailaquatics said:
Sadly, I will not disagree. But the original Poster said doing it by fish food which is great, can we stay with that?
I guess on a first tank, you people suggest things. The fish die. The odds of that person trying again is slim. Then they don't get 10 tanks and buy my $70 fish that they wanted. It is not personal. Simply if they can't keep one tank, they will not keep others. Better advise than band-aids would be better!
 
  • Thread starter

Aquatina

Valued Member
Messages
67
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Experience
Just started
Hmmm I'm a bit confused. Should I continue to put in fish food and let the ammonia confine to rise?
 

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
BillCNC said:
It would be simple enough to do a side by side test with a couple of 10 gal. if available. Two exact setups side by side with air driven sponge filters. One with a bacteria supplement and one with any other method and see which one has the better numbers. However, for the test to have any validity, one would have to honestly try to prove themselves wrong, ... not right. I would consider it a valid test if one couldn't sink their own battleship if they truly tried.

Regards
Bill.
Already been done enough times on this forum to convince me-a former researcher- without doing the rigorous scientific methodology you're suggesting. Anecdotal evidence, repeated over and over with the same result is just as convincing.

Librarian said:
Hmmm I'm a bit confused. Should I continue to put in fish food and let the ammonia confine to rise?
Yes, if you don't have fish in there. You need ammonia to grow the bacteria that will eventually control the ammonia levels in your tank. When you see the ammonia levels around 2ppm stop feeding the tank for a few days and just watch the levels. As bacteria grow, the ammonia level will start to fall.
Once the ammonia starts fall, begin feeding the tank again and try to keep the ammonia level as close to 2 ppm as possible but not higher. At that point, you should begin to see nitrites show up and begin to rise. It is at this time, adding Tetra Safe Start will be most effective.
 
  • Moderator

Coradee

Moderator
Messages
17,307
Reaction score
4,661
Points
508
Experience
More than 10 years
Please remember that whilst debate is good let’s keep it civil & not let the Op’s questions get overlooked.
If you want to continue the side discussion on the efficacy of bacteria starters then please start a new thread.
 
  • Thread starter

Aquatina

Valued Member
Messages
67
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Experience
Just started
Sounds like I need to get to Ace hardware and wait. It's close to 2 ammonia anyway. Looking forward to getting a single daniio or something hardy
 

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
Librarian said:
Sounds like I need to get to Ace hardware and wait. It's close to 2 ammonia anyway. Looking forward to getting a single daniio or something hardy
Please don't add fish while you're cycling. Just because they may survive a cycling tank doesn't mean they won't get sick or suffer ammonia or nitrite burns from the toxins in the tank. You will be treating a sick fish while you are cycling AND you will have to drop the ammonia levels back down to less than 1 ppm and buy Seachem Prime to protect that fish. Dropping the ammonia level that low will significantly extend the time it takes to completely cycle the tank by weeks. If you want to get ammonia to finish cycling your tank, that will help you speed things up and have much more control. As I said earlier, adding Tetra Safe Start will really speed things up if added after nitrites show up. But PLEASE don't make your job of cycling harder and make a fish suffer because of your impatience. It will be well worth it if you get the tank fully cycled first. Then you can go out and get all the fish you need, all at once, to stock your tank.
 

BillCNC

Valued Member
Messages
128
Reaction score
66
Points
38
Experience
More than 10 years
Fancytailaquatics said:
They don't as you suggest they do. I have been in this business as an owner/keeper/over 10 years of experience. You believe what you want and show me case studies and you cannot. I have contacted Seachem myself, they will not provide but basic information. They told me Prime is only a 48-hour fix to help in emergencies. A band-aid, not a solution. This is no different than the product you mention. We need to help people, not give them with false information.
Let's teach them to cycle CORRECTLY and avoid the lies and myths, please!
Well, ... 10 year's ... Wow, Impressive. :banghead:

I've been doing this for over 40 years and I think If you truly been doing this for the 10 years as you say you've been in this hobby, ... then I think you have been doing this long enough to know what you said is utter hogwash with no plausible excuse to rely on for your misstatement. Just because YOU cannot wrap your head around the science and understanding of how these newfangled types of product's work, doesn't mean that it's "Snake Oil" as you say. It just simply means you don't understand it is as the rest of us do, ... fine. But to say that it's Snake Oil is just careless at best.

Seachem never told you it was for "Emergency Use Only", ... That my friend I know did not happen. It is a dechlorinate and that's it. It's emergency benefit's is the same as any other brands.

Either your missing some basic understanding of how things work or your being willfully blind. So let's go over a few basics.

Fish DO NOT require Beneficial Bacteria (BB) to survive, ... PERIOD!
A fish can live on a constant supply of dechlorinated water. Plant's not so much.
A fish could survive it's entire naturally long life in an aquarium without a single living BB ever having existing in the tank.
The ONLY benefit BB has in your aquarium is for YOU and your plant's. Without it it's a lot of work on your end.

I do agree we should only be helping with CORRECT information by avoiding Myth's and lies. But the only false information being said in this thread is what your saying about BB supplement's.

The whole key is to use a Dechlorinator WITH a BB supplement.

Regards
Bill
 
  • Thread starter

Aquatina

Valued Member
Messages
67
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Experience
Just started
So, I'm going to stay with fishless and keep raising the ammonia wtfh fish food bc I think the picture shows I'm close to 2 or 1.5? Fancytailaquatics
 

Momgoose56

Fishlore VIP
Messages
5,984
Reaction score
3,826
Points
458
Experience
More than 10 years
BillCNC said:
Well, ... 10 year's ... Wow, Impressive. :banghead:

I've been doing this for over 40 years and I think If you truly been doing this for the 10 years as you say you've been in this hobby, ... then I think you have been doing this long enough to know what you said is utter hogwash with no plausible excuse to rely on for your misstatement. Just because YOU cannot wrap your head around the science and understanding of how these newfangled types of product's work, doesn't mean that it's "Snake Oil" as you say. It just simply means you don't understand it is as the rest of us do, ... fine. But to say that it's Snake Oil is just careless at best.

Seachem never told you it was for Emergency use only, ... That my friend I know did not happen. It is a dechlorinate and that's it. It's emergency benefit's is the same as any other brands.

Either your missing some basic understanding of how things work or your being willfully blind. So let's go over a few basics.

Fish DO NOT require Beneficial Bacteria (BB) to survive, ... PERIOD!
A fish could survive it's entire naturally long life in an aquarium without a single living BB ever having existing in the tank.
The ONLY benefit BB has in your aquarium is for YOU and your plant's. Without it it's a lot of work on your end.

I do agree we should only be helping with CORRECT information by avoiding Myth's and lies. But the only false information being said in this thread is what your saying about BB supplement's.

Regards
Bill
Bill, I agree totally, Prime binds molecular ammonia and nitrite into a more inert structure that is harmless to fish for up to 48 hours. Seachem states that in cases where ammonia is 2ppm or more, up to 5 times the recommended dose can be added to the tank as a temporary emergency fix. I suppose, that dosage is intended for instances where a water change is not immediately possible. But this emergency 'fix' is intended as a one time remedy to protect fish, not as a substitute for water changes and good tank maintenance.
 

vikingpillage89

Valued Member
Messages
152
Reaction score
68
Points
63
Would just wait and cycle it until 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and little nitrate
 
Toggle Sidebar

Aquarium Calculator

Aquarium Photo Contests

Follow FishLore!





Top Bottom