Accidentally bought fish while not knowing about nitrogen cycle.Lots of question

I don't think anyone answered your question on how much light to provide your plants, but typically it is between 8 to 12 hours a day. I believe the walsted method encourages 5 on 5 off to allow co2 to redistribute from the soil, but considering you're using a sand/gravel mix you can probably discard that and just stick with 8 hours.

I've been doing 12 hours so I'm good based on what you said. Thank you for the reply

 

12 should be ok for most plants, if you start getting an algae problem scale the light down to 8

 

12 should be ok for most plants, if you start getting an algae problem scale the light down to 8

Much appreciated. Not seeing algae for now but will do if they show up.
Any comments on my filter?

Added more questions and my buy list

6.Can I clean the substrate while undergoing a cycle?I haven't cleaned it yet and poop and other things like uneaten food are in there. I'm using an Undergravel Filter (UGF). If I siphoned/vacuumed the substrate, will it disrupt the cycle? Is it harmful if I don't vacuum the substrate?

7.Planning to buy a Sponge Filter. Is it a good replacement for the UGF. Can I run both UGF and Sponge Filter at once.If yes, can I just use one air pump and use a splitter for the tubing?If no, what's better, sponge or UGF? Any other recommendations? I am planning to get AquaClear 20 when given the chance.

After doing lots of research and hearing good things about it. I will buy AquaClear 20 when given the chance. But for now UGF and other filters will be temporarily used depending on what the fishlore community tells me.

 

Welcome to fishlore!
Don't do water changes if you are using TSS with the cycle. What are you using to cycle with?
Sponge filters are good.

 

Welcome to fishlore!
Don't do water changes if you are using TSS with the cycle. What are you using to cycle with?
Sponge filters are good.

Op is using Azoo brand bacteria.

 

Welcome to fishlore!
Don't do water changes if you are using TSS with the cycle. What are you using to cycle with?
Sponge filters are good.

It doesn't say if I can do WCs or not though. If I don't do water changes, won't that harm the fish a lot?

 

I'd do do WCs if the ammonia and nitrite go too high. Can you get TSS there locally?

 

I agree with ^ if it doesn't say specifically not to, I would be doing water changes. I'm not sure what ppm your dechlorinator detoxifies of ammonia and nitrite but I use prime and I know it only does up to 1ppm of both for 24 hours. Since your nitrite is at 2ppm, I would err on the side of caution and do a water change if it were me.

 

I'd do do WCs if the ammonia and nitrite go too high. Can you get TSS there locally?

ammonia is stable at 0.25ppm but nitrites are not looking good. nitrates are staying low at maybe always 5.0ppm. I think the plants are eating the already low level of nitrates.The LFS I went to buy Azoo brand said TSS is not available in the Philippines because I asked him if they have some stock and he suggested me to just get Azoo in the first place.

I agree with ^ if it doesn't say specifically not to, I would be doing water changes. I'm not sure what ppm your dechlorinator detoxifies of ammonia and nitrite but I use prime and I know it only does up to 1ppm of both for 24 hours. Since your nitrite is at 2ppm, I would err on the side of caution and do a water change if it were me.

I'm doing the water changes now. What if I double the dose of conditioner, will it double the detoxification amount too?

Good thing to see my platies are still looking good. The Danios are all lively.

Almost forgot to say that I have just bought a sponge filter and it's very cheap. About 3 US dollars.

Pic of Aquarium:


Pic of new sponge filter

 

I really like undergravel filters. They provide such a huge biofilter surface.

But from the photo, the sand looks like it may be too fine for a UGF. The water needs to be able to move through it freely.

Can you show us a closer picture of the sand, with something in the picture for a size comparison?

It will be hard to do much about it now, but for future reference, I'd use gravel that's about 1/4 inch (6mm) in size for the substrate if using a UGF.

I also like to put several layers of polyester quilt batting over the UGF grating, and then put the gravel on top of that. This provides even more bio surface, and prevents detritus and small sand particles from falling into or through the grating.

For maintenance, I vacuum the gravel deeply during water changes, getting down to the polyester floss so it gets cleaned, too.

But I would NOT do any vacuuming during your initial cycling of the filter. I'd also avoid water changes or the use of conditioners during the first two weeks after using a bacteria starter. The bacteria from the bottle is free floating until it can become attached to the surfaces in your filters. So water changes discard the free floating bacteria. And conditioners can starve your bacteria during that critical phase.

 

I really like undergravel filters. They provide such a huge biofilter surface.

But from the photo, the sand looks like it may be too fine for a UGF. The water needs to be able to move through it freely.

Can you show us a closer picture of the sand, with something in the picture for a size comparison?

It will be hard to do much about it now, but for future reference, I'd use gravel that's about 1/4 inch (6mm) in size for the substrate if using a UGF.

I also like to put several layers of polyester quilt batting over the UGF grating, and then put the gravel on top of that. This provides even more bio surface, and prevents detritus and small sand particles from falling into or through the grating.

For maintenance, I vacuum the gravel deeply during water changes, getting down to the polyester floss so it gets cleaned, too.

But I would NOT do any vacuuming during your initial cycling of the filter. I'd also avoid water changes or the use of conditioners during the first two weeks after using a bacteria starter. The bacteria from the bottle is free floating until it can become attached to the surfaces in your filters. So water changes discard the free floating bacteria. And conditioners can starve your bacteria during that critical phase.

Thanks for helping.IIRC, conditioners only detoxify the ammonia,nitrites etc so it will not starve the bacteria because they can still eat it even when detoxified.Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have a sponge filter shown in the pic in my previous post but I can't run bothUGF and the sponge filter at the same time because my pump looks like it's too weak.Any advice on that?

 

Most dechlorinators don't detoxify ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Are you using Prime? That one does detoxify ammonia, and they claim to detoxify nitrite and nitrate too. But they haven't backed their claims up with scientific research. So, imo it's best to assume that it doesn't detoxify nitrite and nitrate.

 

Most dechlorinators don't detoxify ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Are you using Prime? That one does detoxify ammonia, and they claim to detoxify nitrite and nitrate too. But they haven't backed their claims up with scientific research. So, imo it's best to assume that it doesn't detoxify nitrite and nitrate.

I'm using Azoo brand which does similar things to Prime.I have an ordinary dechlorinator but I don't use it.

 

I would like to believe that conditioners like Prime just create ammonia compounds that are non-toxic to the fish, but are still available for the bacteria to eat. But I'm not sure. I know there was a test done on this very forum to check some of that, but I'm not sure how it came out. So it's a tough call!

I would prefer to see larger gravel grains than what you've got for the UGF. But it might work just fine, anyhow. I think it's worth giving it a try. But another problem you may have is vacuuming the sand with the larger stones scattered through it. It does look nice, though!


On the air pump/filter question: What I would recommend, to run both the sponge filter and the UGF at the same time, would be an air pump with two pumps inside and two outlets. I have a couple of the Tetra Whisper 30-60s I got at Wal Mart, but you can find them cheaper on-line. They've got two separate outlets, but they're not connected to each other. Instead, the pump has two separate pumping units inside, driven by one coil. This is perfect for driving two separate devices because they will operate independently without one device hogging all of the air.

On the other hand, since you've already got one small pump, you could just buy another small one and have two completely separate pumps that way. The main thing is to not simply try to install a "tee" from the one small pump and expect it to drive both filters. I've had all kinds of problems trying to do that with a small pump.

And I would recommend running both the undergravel filter and the sponge filter all of the time. You need to run them both while cycling, ideally, so that they'll both get good colonies of beneficial bacteria started in them. But if you've already started with just one of the two, keep that one running until you get another pump to drive the other one. It'll "catch up" once you start running it, too.

I always like having at least two separate filter systems for any tank. That way, you've got a backup in case of a problem with one or the other. And, again, the more bio-surface, the better. An undergravel is nice in a smaller tank because it doesn't take up much space and is somewhat "invisible", too.

 

I would like to believe that conditioners like Prime just create ammonia compounds that are non-toxic to the fish, but are still available for the bacteria to eat. But I'm not sure. I know there was a test done on this very forum to check some of that, but I'm not sure how it came out. So it's a tough call!

I would prefer to see larger gravel grains than what you've got for the UGF. But it might work just fine, anyhow. I think it's worth giving it a try. But another problem you may have is vacuuming the sand with the larger stones scattered through it. It does look nice, though!


On the air pump/filter question: What I would recommend, to run both the sponge filter and the UGF at the same time, would be an air pump with two pumps inside and two outlets. I have a couple of the Tetra Whisper 30-60s I got at Wal Mart, but you can find them cheaper on-line. They've got two separate outlets, but they're not connected to each other. Instead, the pump has two separate pumping units inside, driven by one coil. This is perfect for driving two separate devices because they will operate independently without one device hogging all of the air.

On the other hand, since you've already got one small pump, you could just buy another small one and have two completely separate pumps that way. The main thing is to not simply try to install a "tee" from the one small pump and expect it to drive both filters. I've had all kinds of problems trying to do that with a small pump.

And I would recommend running both the undergravel filter and the sponge filter all of the time. You need to run them both while cycling, ideally, so that they'll both get good colonies of beneficial bacteria started in them. But if you've already started with just one of the two, keep that one running until you get another pump to drive the other one. It'll "catch up" once you start running it, too.

I always like having at least two separate filter systems for any tank. That way, you've got a backup in case of a problem with one or the other. And, again, the more bio-surface, the better. An undergravel is nice in a smaller tank because it doesn't take up much space and is somewhat "invisible", too.

Thank you so much for this, very very informative!

So does that mean the "sand" I'm using will be fine for now? I'm going to replace it with gravel soon when I get money.I agree, it really does look nice for a sand and gravel look.Wondering why I haven't heard of sand gravel setup and keep only hearing on either all gravel or all sand setups.

Yep, I used a splitter (tee) to power the UGF and the Sponge Filter , didn't work. It's hard to find branded products like Tetra,Aquaclear etc here.You will most likely find cheap china products.My sponge filter is one of those.I will buy cheap filter like UGF or sponge filters but I will never buy HOB or Powerheads with an unknown brand. I can just buy another pump because it's cheap but another "generic" product,hope it can hold for a long time too.I have to go a long way with my mom to get an API Freshwater Test Kit and it's above the SRP in Amazon too.

On the other hand, here's the update for aquarium water tests...
pH - 8.0
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 2.0 PPM - 5.0ppm ( I will take it as a 5.00ppm)
Nitrate - 10ppm?

I read that it's normal in the first week to get high nitrites but that still scares me since I have fish in the tank. Immediately made a 25% water change a while ago. Nitrates are in a good level.pH always stays the same.

My brother bought 2 platies for me not knowing about the cycle too. This is going to be hard. I can't return it though since it's worse at the shop. He almost bought the juvenile koi at the shop too, good thing he didn't.We don't have a pond. My goodness. Explained everything to him.

 

With the addition of the new platies especially, I would do a water change soon to get your nitrites down, if it were me. To better tell what your nitrites are do a 50/50 mix of tank water and tap water (assuming there are no nitrites in your tap water) and it will make reading the test a little easier. I could never tell the difference between 2 and 5 myself and did the half and half mix, soooo much easier.

 

With the addition of the new platies especially, I would do a water change soon to get your nitrites down, if it were me. To better tell what your nitrites are do a 50/50 mix of tank water and tap water (assuming there are no nitrites in your tap water) and it will make reading the test a little easier. I could never tell the difference between 2 and 5 myself and did the half and half mix, soooo much easier.

Tested our tap water and all are clean.pH is at 8.0 (don't know why).
I did a WC before I added the 2 platy because I tested the water and the nitrites are high.I'm assuming the nitrates have been cut now.Ammonia is very yellow and hard to tell if 0 or 0.25 but looks more like yellow like a lemon. Thanks for that testing tip, will try.

 

Plenty people do sand and gravel mixes, they just don't use ugf's. If you replaced your ugf with a hob, you could run your current substrate setup with no worries.

 

Just be aware that eventually the sand will probably work its way under the gravel, so you'll possibly end up with a layer of sand in the bottom with gravel on top, unless you periodically mix them back together.

 

With the addition of the new platies especially, I would do a water change soon to get your nitrites down, if it were me. To better tell what your nitrites are do a 50/50 mix of tank water and tap water (assuming there are no nitrites in your tap water) and it will make reading the test a little easier. I could never tell the difference between 2 and 5 myself and did the half and half mix, soooo much easier.

If you do the 50/50 split remember to double the test reading you get.

Also, I have bred platies and I like water sprite floating on the surface. The fry hide in there. My first batch I did nothing special - left them in the main tank, didn't feed them anything extra, basically let nature take its course and about 20 survived. My LFS will take any fish, fry or otherwise, for free.

My platies and fry also went through the tail end of my cycle.

 

Plenty people do sand and gravel mixes, they just don't use ugf's. If you replaced your ugf with a hob, you could run your current substrate setup with no worries.

Will get a HOB, but I think the UGF in mine is working since the water is crystal clear.I might get multiple filter syndrome.

Just be aware that eventually the sand will probably work its way under the gravel, so you'll possibly end up with a layer of sand in the bottom with gravel on top, unless you periodically mix them back together.

Will take note of this. Thanks again

If you do the 50/50 split remember to double the test reading you get.

Also, I have bred platies and I like water sprite floating on the surface. The fry hide in there. My first batch I did nothing special - left them in the main tank, didn't feed them anything extra, basically let nature take its course and about 20 survived. My LFS will take any fish, fry or otherwise, for free.

My platies and fry also went through the tail end of my cycle.

Maybe a floating anacharis will work too?I believe my platies can finish the cycle too.I will guide them. 20 is still a lot and one of my female platies has a large belly.Is she pregnant?

 

Yes, she's probably pregnant. Female platies always seem to be pregnant if there are males present. Any floating plant will work, even a tall sword plant or something where just the leaves lay flat on the waters surface will work. Platies give birth to a new littler approx once every month.

 

Yes, she's probably pregnant. Female platies always seem to be pregnant if there are males present. Any floating plant will work, even a tall sword plant or something where just the leaves lay flat on the waters surface will work. Platies give birth to a new littler approx once every month.

Time to get the equipment ready
Do I need a cycled tank for the fry? Or frequent water changes will do?

 

You should have a cycled tank. Remember, with some plant cover usually some fry will survive in your main tank. If you want lots of fry to survive you will want a fry tank.

 

You should have a cycled tank. Remember, with some plant cover usually some fry will survive in your main tank. If you want lots of fry to survive you will want a fry tank.

My tank is almost cycled...I think? Wondering why it's fast.I think the Anacharis can protect the fry since it's like a bush.


Tank parameters update:
Ammonia: 0ppm (is this now normal)
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
ph: 8.2 (will the fish be safe with this??)

tbh,I think the UGF is really working.

 

Normal for a cycled tank is Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates between 10-20. Higher nitrates (40+) and it's time for a WC.

The platies can handle the high pH, the danios not so much. They like it (apparently) around 7.0.

I have platies and danios at about 7.5 and they are doing fine.

The more important thing is to keep your pH constant and not let if fluctuate.

 

I think your fish will be fine with that ph, my platies are in 8-8.2 ph and they're happy as can be. I personally think the danios will be ok as well.

 

The fish will be fine in that pH.

 

Normal for a cycled tank is Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates between 10-20. Higher nitrates (40+) and it's time for a WC.

The platies can handle the high pH, the danios not so much. They like it (apparently) around 7.0.

I have platies and danios at about 7.5 and they are doing fine.

The more important thing is to keep your pH constant and not let if fluctuate.

The fish will be fine in that pH.

I think your fish will be fine with that ph, my platies are in 8-8.2 ph and they're happy as can be. I personally think the danios will be ok as well.

That's nice to hear
As long as there is no quick rise and drop in pH, the fish will be fine avoiding 'pH shock'

Breaking News!!!
API Test Kit results:

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10ppm

I think it's safe to say my tank is cycled!! Woohoo!!
Cycling the tank took about 6 days. 6 days!!
5 days of continued application of Azoo bacteria and stopped using conditioner unless WCing and the results above are shown.I can say that Azoo brand is very effective. The fish are also very lively today, much more than the previous days and no signs of sickness. Survival rate of 100% and they are thriving.

Thank you to the people who helped me. Thank you guys!!

My fish also says thanks.

 

Yay! Congrats!

 

Congrats on a cycled tank....hopefully.

The reason is say hopefully is because many bacteria additives do not contain a self-sustain form of the bacteria. So after a week or two the bacteria dies off and you are once again uncycled. I have no experience with Azoo, nor have I read on here about anyone using it, so I don't know if it contains self-sustaining bacteria or not. But just in case it does not, keep any eye on your water parameters for the next couple of weeks.

Best of luck!

 

Congrats on a cycled tank....hopefully.

The reason is say hopefully is because many bacteria additives do not contain a self-sustain form of the bacteria. So after a week or two the bacteria dies off and you are once again uncycled. I have no experience with Azoo, nor have I read on here about anyone using it, so I don't know if it contains self-sustaining bacteria or not. But just in case it does not, keep any eye on your water parameters for the next couple of weeks.

Best of luck!

Will keep an eye on my tank.I have my trusty API Test kit to back me up.I hope the cycle will continue though.Thanks for the heads up.Do you have any idea on the names of the sustaining and non-sustaining bacteria?

EDIT: You're the mod who merges my previous posts.Sorry about posting multiple times.I'll try to quote people on one post now.

 

Congrads! Keep up with your testing and let us know how things go.

 

Congrads! Keep up with your testing and let us know how things go.

Will keep you guys updated, thanks!

 

Congrats on the cycle!
Here's a link that will help you to multi-quote:

 

Congrats on the cycle!
Here's a link that will help you to multi-quote: Multiple quote a thread | How Do I Forum | 50341

Why didn't I see that in the first place lol. That's one of the most useful things I've seen in a forum.You saved me there, thanks.

Update:
All water parameters are stable.

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite:0ppm
Nitrate:10ppm

 

Update:
All water parametes are still stable (June 09,2015 7:33 PM)

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

Be strong.

 

Sounds excellent!

The Azoo brand bacteria seems to be doing its job well.

And as long as water can flow through the substrate in your UGF, you may find that the UGF really does a fantastic job for you.

UGFs have gotten an undesrvedly bad rap in recent years for a couple of reasons IMO.

The main reason they've fallen out of favor is simply that they do limit your choices of gravel. Especially if you want to have plants rooted directly in the soil, you might want dirt. And for some fish or invertebrates, you might want finer sand. And then there's just the aesthetics of it all. So they can limit your choices.

People often also claim that they force you to need to clean your substrate more thoroughly than if you don't use a UGF, but you really should clean any gravel substrate quite diligently IMO, so I don't see this as much of a difference. But you should deeply vacuum the gravel in a UGF when you do water changes,

It is also said that the gravel and detritus can fall through the grating of the UGF and become difficult to remove. I use the floss layer to prevent that, but most people don't, and UGFs have been used successfully without it for years.

On the plus side, a UGF will provide a huge surface area for your beneficial bacteria. A UGF can be a grest stabilizing force for an aquarium. Smaller tanks are often harder to keep stable. A UGF, with its huge bio-surface can really help.

But I do like using multiple filters in any aquarium. Having the sponge along with the UGF is great. And if you did add a nice HOB, you'd be triple-filtered. And there would be no harm in that at all!

It does sound like your tank is behaving the way it should. Keep an eye on the readings for a while to make sure your bacteria has really taken hold. But I think you're where you want to be.

 

Sounds excellent!

The Azoo brand bacteria seems to be doing its job well.

And as long as water can flow through the substrate in your UGF, you may find that the UGF really does a fantastic job for you.

UGFs have gotten an undesrvedly bad rap in recent years for a couple of reasons IMO.

The main reason they've fallen out of favor is simply that they do limit your choices of gravel. Especially if you want to have plants rooted directly in the soil, you might want dirt. And for some fish or invertebrates, you might want finer sand. And then there's just the aesthetics of it all. So they can limit your choices.

People often also claim that they force you to need to clean your substrate more thoroughly than if you don't use a UGF, but you really should clean any gravel substrate quite diligently IMO, so I don't see this as much of a difference. But you should deeply vacuum the gravel in a UGF when you do water changes,

It is also said that the gravel and detritus can fall through the grating of the UGF and become difficult to remove. I use the floss layer to prevent that, but most people don't, and UGFs have been used successfully without it for years.

On the plus side, a UGF will provide a huge surface area for your beneficial bacteria. A UGF can be a grest stabilizing force for an aquarium. Smaller tanks are often harder to keep stable. A UGF, with its huge bio-surface can really help.

But I do like using multiple filters in any aquarium. Having the sponge along with the UGF is great. And if you did add a nice HOB, you'd be triple-filtered. And there would be no harm in that at all!

It does sound like your tank is behaving the way it should. Keep an eye on the readings for a while to make sure your bacteria has really taken hold. But I think you're where you want to be.

Thanks for this wonderful post

I've been the loving the UGF the more I use it and see it doing it's job nicely.I like its looks and love to see bubbles going up on a transparent tube.

The sand substrate looks deep in my aquarium but actually it's not because it's just the UGF plate and there's only a very small amount of sand got under it so the flow is not blocked.The UGFs biological filter is one of the best IMO since it covers a very large part of the aquarium as you said.

I know the ups and downs of the UGF and I'm prepared for the not so good things it may do but I do hope it doesn't fail me.Also, I recommend this Azoo brand,only took a week of cycling my aquarium.I think they're known for their Azoo Mignon/Palm filters too.




And for the update:
All water parametes are still stable (June 10,2015 10:10 PM)
(Still the same woohoo)

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

I'm getting more into this hobby and I think I got MTS.Thinking of getting a 50+ gallon tank if I find a suitable space in our home and if the budget allows it..Also getting a 5 gallon tank for a betta and cherry shrimp or and getting a 20 gallon for my room.I'm really itching for a new aquarium.OMG

Time to save my school allowance.This will take years

 

Update time!

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

Fish all look happy and they all approach me when I go near them. They are not scared/shy anymore when compared to last weeks.

Any more fish suggestions?