About proper FW quarantining

Nickguy5467

ive heard that bare bottom tanks are what you do with qt tanks , i guess but ive also read somewhere that you should prepare hidey holes or so. maybe a little sand substrate also for like when you get corys etc. i havent done this but it sounds like a decent idea.. also as far as filters go. normally i just ran 2 filters on my main tank and xfered the smaller filter to my qt tank when i needed it. buddy of mine convinced me to just leave it on the qt tank and just keep feeding it. but i dont know how well that method works either. what are you thoughts?

also i just got 10 neons , its day 3 and 1 died that i know of. i kept counting 9. but today i see no body but i keep only counting 8. i mean i have no idea where it could be. i cant be in the filter because i have a pre sponge on the intake . and theres only one of those hollow rocks with a hole in it in the tank that i threw in there for somewhere to go i guess since i dont think throwing sand and whole no hidey decor in there would be good for their tiny hearts i guess. i did do a large water change before i put the fish in there because filter been feeding for a while. i didnt however clean the filter . i hope thats still fine. i might go back to the 2 filters in my main tank. i dunno

anyway. what are your thoughts?
 

BigManAquatics

I always run multiple sponge filters on every tank and when the need for qt arrives-or hospital tank-i just replace one of the running filters with an extra filter to start building bb and put the one in use into the qt/hospital tank. Always works great too for if i decide on a new tank, already got plenty of cycled filters to just transfer.

I do prefer bare bottom qt tanks, can see easier stuff like some possible parasites, poop, etc. Though i do like to keep a fake hollow log too so several can hide if preferred.
 

Nickguy5467

I always run multiple sponge filters on every tank and when the need for qt arrives-or hospital tank-i just replace one of the running filters with an extra filter to start building bb and put the one in use into the qt/hospital tank. Always works great too for if i decide on a new tank, already got plenty of cycled filters to just transfer.

I do prefer bare bottom qt tanks, can see easier stuff like some possible parasites, poop, etc. Though i do like to keep a fake hollow log too so several can hide if preferred.
cool well its a good thing i just bought some. just hope they dont freak out and kill themselves if i add it with them in there. i mean neons arent the heardiest fish as far as ive heard/red. but there werent any cards. dont know how much of a differense that makes though
 

jmaldo

Bravo!
Quarantine - which ever you decide, I have done both. I even Quarantine plants.
My fish are too valuable to me to take a chance.
As mentioned by BigManAquatics I also have multiply sponges in my tanks, really makes it easier to start a tank when needed.

Good Luck!
 

86 ssinit

All great info! And it’s great you’ve set up a qt tank. Next you have to be very careful it doesn’t become just another tank!! That’s another reason I go bare bottom. Bare bottom just stays cleaner. For me I start up qt tanks by removing used filter floss from my hob filters and I add it to the qt hob. Or I have internal sponge filters on powerheads. They have 2 sections so I’ll remove a sponge from one of these to start a tank. I’m not a fan of the standard sponge filter fed by an air pump. Just not enough water movement. I also add a potted plant to give them some Decor.

Neons are tough fish to qt. They are known to die off. Usually if you buy 10 your going to lose some. I’ve lost all and just gave up keeping them. But those that do survive are good strong fish. After the first month they’ll usually live for 5+yrs and nothing seems to bother them. It’s just the first couple of weeks you’ve got to get them through.
 

Nickguy5467

All great info! And it’s great you’ve set up a qt tank. Next you have to be very careful it doesn’t become just another tank!! That’s another reason I go bare bottom. Bare bottom just stays cleaner. For me I start up qt tanks by removing used filter floss from my hob filters and I add it to the qt hob. Or I have internal sponge filters on powerheads. They have 2 sections so I’ll remove a sponge from one of these to start a tank. I’m not a fan of the standard sponge filter fed by an air pump. Just not enough water movement. I also add a potted plant to give them some Decor.

Neons are tough fish to qt. They are known to die off. Usually if you buy 10 your going to lose some. I’ve lost all and just gave up keeping them. But those that do survive are good strong fish. After the first month they’ll usually live for 5+yrs and nothing seems to bother them. It’s just the first couple of weeks you’ve got to get them through.
yeah. this is all i got right now. i put that rock in today. i got a few more things. like a larger log like hidey hole . i might put a small lair of white sand over by the small rock


IMG_20220625_193022639.jpg
 

86 ssinit

Neons are mid level fish. There not going into that hole. Put that rock in the center of the tank and they may swim around it. Neons and corys don’t need sand so don’t bother with it now. Keep that tank as basic as possible and change water as often as you can. This quickly gets the fish acclimated to your water.
 

Nickguy5467

Neons are mid level fish. There not going into that hole. Put that rock in the center of the tank and they may swim around it. Neons and corys don’t need sand so don’t bother with it now. Keep that tank as basic as possible and change water as often as you can. This quickly gets the fish acclimated to your water.
i vacced some of my main tanks water yesterdayinto a bucket and drip acclimated it for a like an hour. hopefully that helped. though i lost one neon and 1 is missing. no idea where it went
 

jmaldo

Next you have to be very careful it doesn’t become just another tank!!
:eek:Agree, it's so easy :mad:
 

Nickguy5467

:eek:Agree, it's so easy :mad:
not exactly sure what that means. lul ive only used it for qt since i started. i mean i have a 50 gal saltwater tank with sump set up and what not. but after i moved i never did anything with it >.>
 

jmaldo

though i lost one neon and 1 is missing. no idea where it went

I purchased a dozen and lost 3. No idea why?


Black Neons School.jpg

Good Luck!
 

Nickguy5467

I purchased a dozen and lost 3. No idea why?


Black Neons School.jpg

Good Luck!
that sucks. i guess they just die regardless of what we do. i mean neons are super inbread right?
 

jmaldo

It happens, still unsure why. I kept mine for over 2 years until I sold them, which I should have not done, but... Maybe I'll have them again...
As far as the comment
:eek:Agree, it's so easy :mad:
Too often keepers have a Quarantine tank which eventually becomes another tank, it happened to me and 86 ssinit since he mentioned it.

Good Luck!
 

BigManAquatics

It happens, still unsure why. I kept mine for over 2 years until I sold them, which I should have not done, but... Maybe I'll have them again...
As far as the comment

Too often keepers have a Quarantine tank which eventually becomes another tank, it happened to me and 86 ssinit since he mentioned it.

Good Luck!
Guilty as well
 

Fisch

I wonder if they just stress out. Noticed during my beginner rounds of quarantine Neons seem to have a better survival rate with hiding places. If you have some good mass of stem plants (I have a big bunch/knot of anacharis elodea in my QT), it may help them to stress less and help the survival.
 

Huckleberry77

Spray paint the back and bottom (and sides too if you like) of your QT tank black or dark blue. It keeps the fish calmer. When I toured Segrest farms they used a black plastic shopping bag that had been cut up a bit and called it a “fluffy”. The fish would use this similar to plants for cover. It was cheap, sanitary, and disposable but gave the fish a place to hide.
 

Cherryshrimp420

What's in your main tank? I never quarantined fish, they go straight into densely planted tanks.

Neons in particular needs darkness to feel safe. A bare tank is going to stress them out.
 

Nickguy5467

What's in your main tank? I never quarantined fish, they go straight into densely planted tanks.

Neons in particular needs darkness to feel safe. A bare tank is going to stress them out.
my main tank. not much 3 cards, 2 black skirts. 2 albino cory. some number of amano shrimp, and 5 nerite snails. i realize i need to increase those numbers . the neons should help the cards somewhat, dont care much for the skirts.

ive just had them from the beginning and never had the nerve to kick them out. the cory i want to increase.

i lost one. there werent any at my lfs the other day so i couldnt get any. if i didnt have any albinos ive have bought a bunch of pandas that would probably only end up like 3 of them left with my luck.

i also have an amazon sword , lots of Anubis(it keeps growing so i chop it up and glue it somewhere else on the log), i forget what my grass is called but i dont think its growing out anymore lul it just grows up and gets uglier. i just remembered my last trip to the lfs before the neons . i got a SAE and i accidentally dropped him directly into my main tank. i derped. he is no longer with us. probably ph shock or something

29g

IMG_20220520_152353369.jpg
 

Cherryshrimp420

When I kept neons I had plants cover the entire water surface

Your tank is a bit too bright for me to put neons into... But they may survive for you

Neons are fragile enough, the ones from LFS are all juveniles so even more fragile. Just consider yourself to be handling fries when it comes to LFS neons.

Are you injecting CO2? I would check hose levels too. Juvenile fish do not do well with high co2 levels
 

Nickguy5467

When I kept neons I had plants cover the entire water surface

Your tank is a bit too bright for me to put neons into... But they may survive for you

Neons are fragile enough, the ones from LFS are all juveniles so even more fragile. Just consider yourself to be handling fries when it comes to LFS neons.

Are you injecting CO2? I would check hose levels too. Juvenile fish do not do well with high co2 levels
yes, ive had a co2 set up for quite a while now. i have a drop checker on the right just out of range of the picture on the right side of the tank. i keep the guide there for reference lul. always try to keep it bright green do i need to lower it? for the neons? , hard to tell if its dark green sometimes . maybe im blind. i could lower the light, and i wouldve gotten cards if there were any.

i just assumed i needed to max my light out for the plants. my cards seem to be fine. but yeah i did read that new neons prefered darkness, so i guess before i xfer them ill dim the light intensity a bit and just ajust my thrive ferts.

neons are gonna be in that qt tank for like another like another 25 days or so. it never accured to me that lfs fish were babies or close too. i mean it makes sense so i guess i just derped there.

still no idea where my #9 neon went lul. i bought 10. one died and was floating around i could easily see. but now i only count 8 and ive looked everywhere ><
 

Cherryshrimp420

The lights and co2 are great for plants for sure, so its just balancing out the needs of neons vs plants

Green drop checker can be anywhere from 15ppm to 30ppm+ which is too high.

30 day quarantine is bit long... All fish imported into North America already undergoes several stages of quarantine...its not exotic diseases that you have to worry about, its more about proper husbandry and reducing stress
 

Nickguy5467

The lights and co2 are great for plants for sure, so its just balancing out the needs of neons vs plants

Green drop checker can be anywhere from 15ppm to 30ppm+ which is too high.

30 day quarantine is bit long... All fish imported into North America already undergoes several stages of quarantine...its not exotic diseases that you have to worry about, its more about proper husbandry and reducing stress
i see. so should i just do a few days then . and then introduce them to my main?

today i only count 7. still no idea where #9 is, and now the same with #8. looked everywhere i could think of T_T
 

Cherryshrimp420

i see. so should i just do a few days then . and then introduce them to my main?

today i only count 7. still no idea where #9 is, and now the same with #8. looked everywhere i could think of T_T

Hmm idk, I dont use bare quarantine tanks. Seems to me it's not a cycled tank so fish will just drop like flies if put in there.

Are the neons showing white patches? One might be lethargic and spread it to the rest.

Id move the healthy ones over. My transfer process is I put livestock + some plants into a plastic container with needle holes poked on the sides, and ill float the container in the tank for several hours before dumping them in. Maybe try the same but turn off light and co2?
 

Nickguy5467

Hmm idk, I dont use bare quarantine tanks. Seems to me it's not a cycled tank so fish will just drop like flies if put in there.

Are the neons showing white patches? One might be lethargic and spread it to the rest.

Id move the healthy ones over. My transfer process is I put livestock + some plants into a plastic container with needle holes poked on the sides, and ill float the container in the tank for several hours before dumping them in. Maybe try the same but turn off light and co2?
no my neons are fine appearance wise. i assume the first one died from stress . they just swimming back and forth together using a cycled hob filter from my main. i just have no idea where the 2 are. ive looked inside the decor behind the plants, i mean there could be a chance they are in the decor. but i dont want to do any unessessary fiddling around, they are skittish enough as it is. dont want to give them a heart attack. on the floor. so im very confused. i mean. they couldnt be in the filter since i have that pre-sponge blocking any way in.

but i guess i can move the 7 i see over maybe 8 and 9 will show up some day >.>

edit: just found one of the two. dead got stuck in decor i guess. probably the same fate for the other one but i didnt find it. i dont think im very good with new fish anymore. generally i buy 10 fish and in the long run i end up with a fraction of.
 

Cherryshrimp420

no my neons are fine appearance wise. i assume the first one died from stress . they just swimming back and forth together using a cycled hob filter from my main. i just have no idea where the 2 are. ive looked inside the decor behind the plants, i mean there could be a chance they are in the decor. but i dont want to do any unessessary fiddling around, they are skittish enough as it is. dont want to give them a heart attack. on the floor. so im very confused. i mean. they couldnt be in the filter since i have that pre-sponge blocking any way in.

but i guess i can move the 7 i see over maybe 8 and 9 will show up some day >.>

edit: just found one of the two. dead got stuck in decor i guess. probably the same fate for the other one but i didnt find it. i dont think im very good with new fish anymore. generally i buy 10 fish and in the long run i end up with a fraction of.

Well I hope the rest of the neons survive... I don't really follow this quarantine procedure that I often see on here so I can't offer much help... All my purchases go straight into cycled planted tanks and I haven't had any issues so far....
 

Nickguy5467

Well I hope the rest of the neons survive... I don't really follow this quarantine procedure that I often see on here so I can't offer much help... All my purchases go straight into cycled planted tanks and I haven't had any issues so far....
good to know, maybe im doing more harm than good >.>
 

86 ssinit

Well first yes incoming into the country the fish are quarantined and treated. :rolleyes:. Remember this hobby is pretty much unregulated. Your losing fish daily and you think it may be a good idea to put them in your main tank? I qt for a month after the last one dies. Neons are known for this.
 

Cherryshrimp420

The point isn't about mixing with existing fish in main tank, the point is about putting fish into a cycled habitable tank. Any uncycled tank will be losing fish daily unless you keep feeding low and change out water frequently
 

Nickguy5467

The point isn't about mixing with existing fish in main tank, the point is about putting fish into a cycled habitable tank. Any uncycled tank will be losing fish daily unless you keep feeding low and change out water frequently
the tank is not uncycled though(or at least i think so). its been in my main tank for months maybe even longer i dont remember. then recently in the qt for a few months i kept feeding it. unless the bb died unsuspectedly >.>

edit: out of curiosity i tested it just now. everything reads 0, i mean i did do a water change on sunday. though the everything 0 does have me a bit worried. guess i screwed up
 

SparkyJones

Depends on what you are doing and if the risk is worth it. Plenty of folks have free snails, daphina, scuds, all kinds of things just by getting plants, they have worms turning up years later in the substrate, no idea how it got there. I don't have this issue, I don't do plants. just no way for the hitchhikers to enter my tank, but Hey I get it, roll the dice.


As far as a QT tank, and moving a filter off your main tank and putting it back after QT, Vs. just leaving it on QT .... Do you sanitize the filter before putting it back on your main tank? Do you sanitize the QT tank between QTs, and the filter and reseed it?

it's acceptable to sanitize a filter and put it back in parallel on another tank to reseed, IF it's been sanitized and started completely over. If it isn't you are moving bacteria, and possible pathogens to your main tank defeating the point of a QT tank. If you aren't breaking down and sanitizing QT between each QT, then your QT is possibly holding pathogens for the next fish to enter it and then you have a series of weak fish die offs.... only the strong survive as the saying goes. in opposite also, if your filter on QT is seeded on your main tank, and your main tnk has a pathogen all those fish are immune to, stands to reason if the new fish aren't immune to it, at least the weak ones will get sick.
I mean, it's not a "clean" filter doing it that way, but hey it works.

if you aren't sanitizing nets or tools before using them on other tanks, , it's all cross contaminating anyways. for a QT to work, it has to be a strict procedure and it be followed, and there needs to be true separation, otherwise there's no point to QT at all, since you are likely cross contaminating anyways, and either getting lucky, or losing the bet.

But again it comes back to what you are doing and how much fish you are keeping and if loses are tolerable to an extent, maybe not welcomed, maybe not liked, but tolerated as par for the course.


As far as neons dying, most folks don't get the parameters from the place they bought them from, most folks don't do the prep on their tank to get it as close as possible to what the fish came from so there isn't a drastic change to adjust to with TDS, with pH or hardness or softness.

Most folks stick to their once a week water change routine, and change 20-50% one time instead or changing 3-7% water daily to keep it really stable and takes 5 minutes vacuum a bit here or there while you're at it, which you can slack off on and slowly adjust them to worse conditions and slow acclimate them to what your regular tank is.

Most folks follow the "let's roll the dice and see if any make it" path and do nothing different, and not the "do what it takes so it works" path for fishkeeping, which is fine, but there's going to be more losses "rolling the dice" than knowing what you have and what needs to be done so that it works. a whole lot of folks don't even have a quarantine at all.

Not pointing fingers, I don't go to "extremes" that maybe I should on QT or acclimating, but I do go pretty far, I know I could do more.
But if I lose new fish, I try to figure out what I could do better to stop that from happening.

From breeding I learned there's fast growers and slow growers, strong fish and weak fish from every spawn.
slow growers and weak fish I would cull. they'd never make it to be sold. Some breeders would just hang on to them longer give them extra time or separate the runts and sell them last a month or so later when they catch up. But those runts wind up as "weak fish", there's a reason they don't grow or move or eat like the others do and they lagged behind them. You can't expect a farm to catch that with thousands of fish they sort by sizes and move on, you can't expect a wild caught importer to put fish back either if it look a little small or weak.

Maybe haggle on the price some if you buy a dozen fish hahaha.
 

Nickguy5467

Depends on what you are doing and if the risk is worth it. Plenty of folks have free snails, daphina, scuds, all kinds of things just by getting plants, they have worms turning up years later in the substrate, no idea how it got there. I don't have this issue, I don't do plants. just no way for the hitchhikers to enter my tank, but Hey I get it, roll the dice.


As far as a QT tank, and moving a filter off your main tank and putting it back after QT, Vs. just leaving it on QT .... Do you sanitize the filter before putting it back on your main tank? Do you sanitize the QT tank between QTs, and the filter and reseed it?

it's acceptable to sanitize a filter and put it back in parallel on another tank to reseed, IF it's been sanitized and started completely over. If it isn't you are moving bacteria, and possible pathogens to your main tank defeating the point of a QT tank. If you aren't breaking down and sanitizing QT between each QT, then your QT is possibly holding pathogens for the next fish to enter it and then you have a series of weak fish die offs.... only the strong survive as the saying goes. in opposite also, if your filter on QT is seeded on your main tank, and your main tnk has a pathogen all those fish are immune to, stands to reason if the new fish aren't immune to it, at least the weak ones will get sick.
I mean, it's not a "clean" filter doing it that way, but hey it works.

if you aren't sanitizing nets or tools before using them on other tanks, , it's all cross contaminating anyways. for a QT to work, it has to be a strict procedure and it be followed, and there needs to be true separation, otherwise there's no point to QT at all, since you are likely cross contaminating anyways, and either getting lucky, or losing the bet.

But again it comes back to what you are doing and how much fish you are keeping and if loses are tolerable to an extent, maybe not welcomed, maybe not liked, but tolerated as par for the course.


As far as neons dying, most folks don't get the parameters from the place they bought them from, most folks don't do the prep on their tank to get it as close as possible to what the fish came from so there isn't a drastic change to adjust to with TDS, with pH or hardness or softness.

Most folks stick to their once a week water change routine, and change 20-50% one time instead or changing 3-7% water daily to keep it really stable and takes 5 minutes vacuum a bit here or there while you're at it, which you can slack off on and slowly adjust them to worse conditions and slow acclimate them to what your regular tank is.

Most folks follow the "let's roll the dice and see if any make it" path and do nothing different, and not the "do what it takes so it works" path for fishkeeping, which is fine, but there's going to be more losses "rolling the dice" than knowing what you have and what needs to be done so that it works. a whole lot of folks don't even have a quarantine at all.

Not pointing fingers, I don't go to "extremes" that maybe I should on QT or acclimating, but I do go pretty far, I know I could do more.
But if I lose new fish, I try to figure out what I could do better to stop that from happening.

From breeding I learned there's fast growers and slow growers, strong fish and weak fish from every spawn.
slow growers and weak fish I would cull. they'd never make it to be sold. Some breeders would just hang on to them longer give them extra time or separate the runts and sell them last a month or so later when they catch up. But those runts wind up as "weak fish", there's a reason they don't grow or move or eat like the others do and they lagged behind them. You can't expect a farm to catch that with thousands of fish they sort by sizes and move on, you can't expect a wild caught importer to put fish back either if it look a little small or weak.

Maybe haggle on the price some if you buy a dozen fish hahaha.
yeah i never thought about sanitizing between qt. is that the same as washing out your sponges? or something more? i did start drip acclimation before i added them. with water from my main tank. i might have forgot to clean out my sponges after moving the filter. i did clean them on day 2. i dont remember if i did it prior though.

i guess the only reason i qt (i probably dont do it right ) is to make sure they dont bring something with them to my main tank and if they do have something i can medicate them accordingly in like a cup or something. seems like while im waiting for that , they just die of anyway.

but like mentioned above. lfs do this precaution process sort of already? but if they do whats the point of qt? is it only for fish traded between users etc? i dunno. im confused

guess i dont learn. makes me sad >.>
 

SparkyJones

I bleach the tank in and out and the hard parts of the sponge filter, and let that sit a couple hours. not crazy bleach, but enough to sanitize, I clean and rinse the sponge also same way, if I think it's something really bad like heximita or columnaris, I'll lysol spray everything also.
Then I fill and rinse everything with clean water, then fill and neutralize the chlorine from tap water and start over. I do seed the sponge off of one of my tanks again, I know a couple that have more than one quarantine tank and have a different cycle there than their fish room and cycle filter sponges off of one of those tanks they just keep snails and scuds in, I guess figuring what might affect snails and scuds doesn't affect fish and they keep the cycle running and provide food for their fish.

Really depends on what length you want or need to go to for biosecurity and how much you have to lose. Those same couple people have sanitizing stations in their fish room for nets and tools to dip into so one tank doesn't infect another when they have to get into them.

Cycling sponges off your tank is just as likely to kill new fish as its likely the fish coming in sick, if your tanks fish has been through problems and recovered, they might be immune to things in your tank or carriers pathogens that the new fish are not immune to or have been exposed to yet.

Even so like I said, with every spawn there's weak fish and strong fish and if the breeder isn't being hyper critical, they are putting out fish by size and just waiting a bit longer for the weak fish to catch up and selling them also but the first sign of stress and change or a couple changes quickly, and they can't adjust and die.. You just never know unless you ask questions and get answers and can trust the answers are true. Bigger farms are more likely to sit on fish for grow out (quantity and average quality) where a hobby breeder looking to make money is more likely to cull and move on instead of wasting resources on the runts and pushing up their per fish cost and carrying cost (quality over quantity). Small batch is better than farm usually unless it's a novice small breeder that doesn't care about costs and quality. (Wants to save every fish and recover a couple of bucks).

The point of QT is so that any pathogen that could devastate your tanks doesn't get to your tanks. Can you trust the LFS to do it right? Can you trust the breeder to do it right?
Heck can you trust your city to tell you when they hyper chlorine the drinking water BEFORE they do it?

You can control what's under your control. Up to you if you decide its worth it or not or how far to go or if you just want to trust in the sources as good enough. Is QT necessary? If you got a lot to lose absolutely. If it's not a big deal to start over from scratch and risk low, take a gamble.

I've gotten ich in my QT many times in the past 10 years, I haven't gotten anything worse than some light fin fungus or cloudy eye in my tanks in that same time. QT in my opinion isn't even for ich though, it's for pathogens that would devastate your tanks and hard to treat or eradicate without a full tear down and restart.

Theres always gonna be some losses with new fish, a lot of them can be avoided by knowing where they came from and guessing what you are dealing with as far as quality, and if you decide to buy them, get your parameters in line with the water parameters where they came from, then slowly acclimate them to your normal tank parameters in quarantine to avoid shock losses.
If they were critically culled and all were the hardiest fish and good eaters and fast growers they could adjust easier being stronger fish, less care is necessary. If they aren't, they need a slow and as smooth as possible transition to reduce losses.

I find the common easy breeding fish are like that, weak and strong fish, of average quality and treated all as strong fish, a percentage won't make it.
The more expensive stuff, the designer lines or hard to breed fish that can't be farmed easy, the breeders really work overtime to keep the quality as high as possible, hence strong fish and still folks do the wrong things and kill them also, slacking on water quality or diet or acclimation and the fish deteriorates or straight up dies and can't acclimate but I think that's a lack of experience.

Same goes for QT, you don't really see the need for it until something devastating happens, and then you'll take it extremely seriously after going through all that hassle, sick fish and deaths and complete teardown. Experience shows its value and if you've always done a QT, likely you've never experienced whole tanks getting sick and dying off and wonder if it's necessary since nothing bad has occurred.
The QT stops it from getting really bad even if you don't completely avoid cross contamination. They have to be exposed and to enough of the pathogen to infect.

We all learn through experiences and well, mistakes. Practice makes perfect.
 

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