About Banned Members - Page 2

Anders247

I did not know we were in compition with other forums, what's the prize.
It's not a competition as long as other forums don't try to make it one. Mike isn't advertising fishlore over on a different fish forum.
 

BluMan1914

I would not consider a mod asking you to report someone, rather than tell them yourself, a warning (unless you continued doing it after being asked not to.
It may not have been a warning, but I personally took it as one just to be on the safe side.
I’ve still not found one that will allow me to drop the F bomb though
That would be nice once in awhile. So many times I've wanted to say it. But we must all remember that there are children that access this forum and we can't have that.
 

WTFish?

It may not have been a warning, but I personally took it as one just to be on the safe side.

That would be nice once in awhile. So many times I've wanted to say it. But we must all remember that there are children that access this forum and we can't have that.
If “children” are anywhere on the internet, there are far worse things to fear...
 

BobNJerry

We are not in competition with other forums, but we do strive to be the best, most friendly, most respectful and most informative Aquarium Forum on the web.

I would beg to differ - if people got banned for a website and it's the rules you can't invite or post "competitors" websites-without a mods approval... that sounds like a competition to me.... =/

it's about clicks.. it's about how much $$ they get per click.. every time we visit this site- someone somewhere makes money and they don't want you to go to a "competitors" website because they won't get $$ and there are probably advertising contracts promising you'll get this much traffic for this amount of money.. blah blah.

It is the way this site gets to remain running- nothing for free
 

Mike

I would beg to differ - if people got banned for a website and it's the rules you can't invite or post "competitors" websites-without a mods approval... that sounds like a competition to me.... =/

it's about clicks.. it's about how much $$ they get per click.. every time we visit this site- someone somewhere makes money and they don't want you to go to a "competitors" website because they won't get $$ and there are probably advertising contracts promising you'll get this much traffic for this amount of money.. blah blah.

It is the way this site gets to remain running- nothing for free

Not sure why you keep making this about money? It's not about money. At all. Like a few members being banned is going to amount to anything financially when we have thousands of people a day on here??? It's about working hard to build an active forum and then having someone come in with a way less active forum trying to poach members to build up their own forum. Whether the other forum is made up of formerly banned FL members or not, it doesn't matter. Poaching is poaching and not allowed here.
 

tyguy7760

I have to agree with that aspect. If I had a forum that I had spent years on building up to a very nice product, I wouldn't want someone coming over and siphoning members off of my forum either. I'd have no problem with my members joining other forums but using my forum to prop theirs up would cross the line I think

Unfortunately it's an imperfect system. Banning people is distasteful no matter the reason. The forum, and the quality of the product, in the end declines...especially when some of the more knowledgeable fish keepers get banned. It leaves a large void in the overall product...especially when the hobby in general is slowly declining which results in less and less very knowledgeable hobbyists available in the first place. That being said, every forum has rules...and rules are there for a reason.
 

Mike

I have to agree with that aspect. If I had a forum that I had spent years on building up to a very nice product, I wouldn't want someone coming over and siphoning members off of my forum either. I'd have no problem with my members joining other forums but using my forum to prop theirs up would cross the line I think.

Perfectly stated. Thank you.
 

BobNJerry

Not sure why you keep making this about money? It's not about money. At all. Like a few members being banned is going to amount to anything financially when we have thousands of people a day on here??? It's about working hard to build an active forum and then having someone come in with a way less active forum trying to poach members to build up their own forum. Whether the other forum is made up of formerly banned FL members or not, it doesn't matter. Poaching is poaching and not allowed here.

right, then why would it be considered a competitors website if the idea is to create a forum for information? lol then why worry if someone comes along and sets up there own site if you have thousands of members on here? lol

It's not poaching lol that's a bit dramatic.. fishlore did not create the idea of a fish forum- lol so no it's not poaching and I also don't see any animals being hunted lol

I think banning should be reserved for things like harassing other members and what not- not recommending websites or starting your own.. just IMHO.

all of this banning stuff has left a bad taste in my mouth- there is enough drama in the world- I don't need it in my hobby.

I wish you never posted this and I was blissfully unaware of the drama that goes on behind the scenes...but now I know.

After reading the rules and seeing how they are enforced i'm a bit put off... not that my one little membership matters though right?
 

yukondog

I have no problem with the rules, but let me see if I got this correct our privet PM are not privet ? If not than why call them privet ? That just seems to lull us into thinking we can talk to each other through PM's without anybody being to read our privet stuff. If this truly is the case that would be very bad. Is that not CENSORSHIP, very bad.
 

DoubleDutch

Not sure why you keep making this about money? It's not about money. At all. Like a few members being banned is going to amount to anything financially when we have thousands of people a day on here??? It's about working hard to build an active forum and then having someone come in with a way less active forum trying to poach members to build up their own forum. Whether the other forum is made up of formerly banned FL members or not, it doesn't matter. Poaching is poaching and not allowed here.
I think you've hit the most important point now Mike.

Why fear some people will take the decission to go to another (less active as you call it) forum when someone "poaches" them. If they think they're better of elsewhere let them. Why "punish" people who ask them to? A bit of self-confidence for a forum like Fishlore would be a better than to forbid this and even sanction people for itm "Okay, you want to go elsewhere, be our guest. When you will join in again, be welcome again". It will solve itself that way.

Let people decide for their own where they like to be (even when asked by someone else). We're living in a free world (at least we use to call it that way).

A good forum like FL doesn't need to be overprotective !

Kind regards Aad.
 

Anders247

Bob, I'm afraid you don't really understand what he's saying.
It's not a bannable offense to start your own forum. It's a bannable offense to tell other people, using a different forum, to join yours. That's not exactly fair. It's pretty underhanded, tbh.

In case you didn't know, you can tell people who are on fishlore to join your forum. It just can't be through fishlore. Mike's post in this thread shows it: Poaching Members Against the Rules
"If you have a site and you want friends to join, use email and please don't use our system to recruit members or otherwise funnel visitors to another website. I have no issues with any other sites, just don't want our system and members to be gamed for the benefit of others (looking for donations or selling stuff)."
 

WTFish?

I have no problem with the rules, but let me see if I got this correct our privet PM are not privet ? If not than why call them privet ? That just seems to lull us into thinking we can talk to each other through PM's without anybody being to read our privet stuff. If this truly is the case that would be very bad. Is that not CENSORSHIP, very bad.
I absolutely agree with this...I get rules but IF our pm’s aren’t private, that’s just not classy. Lol
 

Mike

right, then why would it be considered a competitors website if the idea is to create a forum for information? lol then why worry if someone comes along and sets up there own site if you have thousands of members on here? lol

It's not poaching lol that's a bit dramatic.. fishlore did not create the idea of a fish forum- lol so no it's not poaching and I also don't see any animals being hunted lol

I think banning should be reserved for things like harassing other members and what not- not recommending websites or starting your own.. just IMHO.

all of this banning stuff has left a bad taste in my mouth- there is enough drama in the world- I don't need it in my hobby.

I wish you never posted this and I was blissfully unaware of the drama that goes on behind the scenes...but now I know.

After reading the rules and seeing how they are enforced i'm a bit put off... not that my one little membership matters though right?
Ok, thanks for the feedback. We obviously see this issue in completely different ways. Sorry you feel that way.

I have no problem with the rules, but let me see if I got this correct our privet PM are not privet ? If not than why call them privet ? That just seems to lull us into thinking we can talk to each other through PM's without anybody being to read our privet stuff. If this truly is the case that would be very bad. Is that not CENSORSHIP, very bad.

They are actually called "conversations". There is a "report" button on conversations and mods can then see the message if a member that is part of the conversation reports it.
 

Anders247

I absolutely agree with this...I get rules but IF our pm’s aren’t private, that’s just not classy. Lol
No, they are private, but they can be reported and viewed through that.
 

WTFish?

No, they are private, but they can be reported and viewed through that.
Gotcha, makes more sense...thanks!
 

DoubleDutch

Btw compliments for the mods to discuss.
Never seen that happen on other forums.
 

TexasDomer

If conversations are private unless reported, why were two conversations sent to me edited by mods/admins? I did not report the conversations, as far as I can remember.
 

Mike

If conversations are private unless reported, why were two conversations sent to me edited by mods/admins? I did not report the conversations, as far as I can remember.

The software may have "edited" the message for things like removing censored words. Mods cannot read or edit your conversations unless reported.
 

WTFish?

The software may have "edited" the message for things like removing censored words. Mods cannot read or edit your conversations unless reported.
Well I must say I’m impressed with you being patient and taking the time to explain everything, when clearly you don’t have to do that...agree or disagree, kudos for that...
 

Cricket lynn mclean

What if two people on this forum built up a huge relationship over years and years and then one was banned. Is the one person still on the site allowed to post somewhere to tell the other guy where they can meet. I guess instead of meeting at another site he could just put his email in his sig or something and maybe the other guy could pick it up.
I did try this (posting my phone number) when a 15 yr old boy was banned. I was worried about him as I had learned some back story and knew that the people here were his best influence. My contact info was edited out by a mod. He wasn't even poaching. It was almost a game to a couple mods to prevent him from getting in touch with his friends here. This behavior to me was quite ugly especially considering his age and his blessed heart was almost always to please others. It has begun to feel a bit Soviet republic here It's such a shame as I had always loved this group more than others. The modding just seems to have gotten way out of control. I know things aren't always what they seem but if all the warnings and explanations are done privately what "appears to be" is the only reality I have.
 

TexasDomer

The software may have "edited" the message for things like removing censored words. Mods cannot read or edit your conversations unless reported.

The name of the forum that these banned members were going to was edited to "google" and "google.com" in these two conversations. Would the software have caught that?
 

WTFish?

I did try this (posting my phone number) when a 15 yr old boy was banned. I was worried about him as I had learned some back story and knew that the people here were his best influence. My contact info was edited out by a mod. He wasn't even poaching. It was almost a game to a couple mods to prevent him from getting in touch with his friends here. This behavior to me was quite ugly especially considering his age and his blessed heart was almost always to please others. It has begun to feel a bit Soviet republic here It's such a shame as I had always loved this group more than others. The modding just seems to have gotten way out of control. I know things aren't always what they seem but if all the warnings and explanations are done privately what "appears to be" is the only reality I have.
Aww, that’s terrible...hope you found him?
 

Mike

I did try this (posting my phone number) when a 15 yr old boy was banned. I was worried about him as I had learned some back story and knew that the people here were his best influence. My contact info was edited out by a mod. He wasn't even poaching. It was almost a game to a couple mods to prevent him from getting in touch with his friends here. This behavior to me was quite ugly especially considering his age and his blessed heart was almost always to please others. It has begun to feel a bit Soviet republic here It's such a shame as I had always loved this group more than others. The modding just seemed to get way out of control. I know things aren't always what they seem but if all the warnings and explanations are done privately what "appears to be" is the only reality I have.

Yep warnings are usually sent privately or they get posted on their profile if necessary. And personal info will always get edited out of the public threads. That's to protect the members since we get crawled by countless robots looking for such info. If you need to send personal info use the conversation feature and don't post it in a thread. And the thing with bans is that since we don't discuss them as mentioned in the first post of this thread, you may only be getting one side of the story.
 

misfittoy

Not sure why you keep making this about money? It's not about money. At all. Like a few members being banned is going to amount to anything financially when we have thousands of people a day on here??? It's about working hard to build an active forum and then having someone come in with a way less active forum trying to poach members to build up their own forum. Whether the other forum is made up of formerly banned FL members or not, it doesn't matter. Poaching is poaching and not allowed here.
If it’s not about money, then why would you care if some people went over to another forum as well? You’re obviously willing to lose them and, had the situation not become adversarial, most people would probably have continued to visit both forums. If you’d just ignored it mostly no one would know about the other forum (I know I wouldn’t) but, because you banned people, now everyone knows and it’s become this big huge thing. It’s called the Streisand Effect.

Anyway, can you please be less hyperbolic than 99.9999%? Unless you’ve banned upwards of 10,000 members that’s not anywhere near accurate. If you feel confident enough to provide numbers, please provide truthful numbers. Thank you.
 

Mike

The name of the forum that these banned members were going to was edited to "google" and "google.com" in these two conversations. Would the software have caught that?

Yep
 

Cricket lynn mclean

Aww, that’s terrible...hope you found him?
I did thank you. On Facebook we were able to meet in person as well (With his dad) and I'll be honest, I cried. I gave him an extra aquarium and fish and we still keep in touch.
 

WTFish?

I did thank you. On Facebook we were able to meet in person as well (With his dad) and I'll be honest, I cried. I gave him an extra aquarium and fish and we still keep in touch.
Aw so sweet, I actually teared up, good for you!
 

Mike

If it’s not about money, then why would you care if some people went over to another forum as well? You’re obviously willing to lose them and, had the situation not become adversarial, most people would probably have continued to visit both forums. If you’d just ignored it mostly no one would know about the other forum (I know I wouldn’t) but, because you banned people, now everyone knows and it’s become this big huge thing. It’s called the Streisand Effect.

Anyway, can you please be less hyperbolic than 99.9999%? Unless you’ve banned upwards of 10,000 members that’s not anywhere near accurate. If you feel confident enough to provide numbers, please provide truthful numbers. Thank you.

Regarding this thread, I'm just trying to be transparent and let peeps know that we don't ban members on a whI'm and that we take it seriously. We don't want to ban anyone. Period.

As far as numbers go, counting robots and spammers that have been banned, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands. Actual people I have no idea. Regarding the 99.9999%, was simply trying to make a point.

If you’d just ignored it mostly no one would know about the other forum (I know I wouldn’t) but, because you banned people, now everyone knows and it’s become this big huge thing. It’s called the Streisand Effect.
Ok, I'm going to try another analogy because it's apparent I'm really good at them, NOT! Let's say you built a really nice garden with LOTS of plants. And every day your neighbor comes over and takes a plant out of it and puts it in his own garden. Hey you've got lots of plants. Surely you can go without one or two? No?
 

misfittoy

Regarding this thread, I'm just trying to be transparent and let peeps know that we don't ban members on a whI'm and that we take it seriously. We don't want to ban anyone. Period.

As far as numbers go, counting robots and spammers that have been banned, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands. Actual people I have no idea. Regarding the 99.9999%, was simply trying to make a point.
I see what you’re trying to do with this thread, but it’s not quite shaking out that way. I think it could be a good thing to hear the critique of the community on this point. I mean, clearly The Banning wasn’t worth it. I like the idea that was tossed out a couple of pages ago about suspensions rather than bans. I agree with many that banning is more appropriate for issues of harassment and similarly severe transgressions, particularly since it’s not about money.

You weren’t talking about spammers and bots when you threw out that statistic. FWIW, when people exaggerate numbers it raises my suspicions, so the point didn’t hit. Thank you for listening.
 

Anders247

If it’s not about money, then why would you care if some people went over to another forum as well? You’re obviously willing to lose them and, had the situation not become adversarial, most people would probably have continued to visit both forums. If you’d just ignored it mostly no one would know about the other forum (I know I wouldn’t) but, because you banned people, now everyone knows and it’s become this big huge thing. It’s called the Streisand Effect.

Anyway, can you please be less hyperbolic than 99.9999%? Unless you’ve banned upwards of 10,000 members that’s not anywhere near accurate. If you feel confident enough to provide numbers, please provide truthful numbers. Thank you.
In case you didn't know, it's not that people can't be a part of other forums. It's that you can't use a forum to recruit members to a different forum of the same type. You can do it through some other means though. Not through FL's system.
 

Mike

I see what you’re trying to do with this thread, but it’s not quite shaking out that way. I think it could be a good thing to hear the critique of the community on this point. I mean, clearly The Banning wasn’t worth it. I like the idea that was tossed out a couple of pages ago about suspensions rather than bans. I agree with many that banning is more appropriate for issues of harassment and similarly severe transgressions, particularly since it’s not about money.

You weren’t talking about spammers and bots when you threw out that statistic. FWIW, when people exaggerate numbers it raises my suspicions, so the point didn’t hit. Thank you for listening.

Sorry, but I disagree completely and would ban them again in a heartbeat. Suspensions don't work. Tried it already. The rules here are not arbitrary. If they were, no one would follow them and no one would respect them and then we wouldn't have much of a forum. Just my 2 cents.
 

Anders247

Right. You can't just allow people to not follow your rules, no matter if you like the person or not. That would be setting a bad example.
 

delete999

Regarding this thread, I'm just trying to be transparent and let peeps know that we don't ban members on a whI'm and that we take it seriously. We don't want to ban anyone. Period.

As far as numbers go, counting robots and spammers that have been banned, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands. Actual people I have no idea. Regarding the 99.9999%, was simply trying to make a point.


Ok, I'm going to try another analogy because it's apparent I'm really good at them, NOT! Let's say you built a really nice garden with LOTS of plants. And every day your neighbor comes over and takes a plant out of it and puts it in his own garden. Hey you've got lots of plants. Surely you can go without one or two? No?
No one stole the forum. The members can enter as many forums as they please without taking away from one. I think this metaphor was worse.

It's like opening a booth for free samples beside another free sample booth. But whoever's booth it is can make the rules for that booth. Free samples being a metaphor for a platform.
 

Anders247

Maybe he should just stop with the analogies, lol.

But I still don't see how you don't understand the premise.
 

Mike

No one stole the forum. The members can enter as many forums as they please without taking away from one. I think this metaphor was worse.

It's like opening a booth for free samples beside another free sample booth. But whoever's booth it is can make the rules for that booth. Free samples being a metaphor for a platform.

I don't see it that way. And totally not saying someone "stole" the forum. It'd be more like the first booth worked hard to get all their free samples to give out and then the second booth took the samples from the hardworking first booth when they weren't looking and then gave out the first booth's samples as their own.

Gotta say, I think I nailed the analogy that time. Just sayin.
 

delete999

I don't see it that way. And totally not saying someone "stole" the forum. It'd be more like the first booth worked hard to get all their free samples to give out and then the second booth took the samples from the hardworking first booth when they weren't looking and then gave out the first booth's samples as their own.

Gotta say, I think I nailed the analogy that time. Just sayin.
You did compare it to stealing in both metaphors. Taking something when someone isn't looking is stealing. You've compared them to stealing multiple times, although they aren't taking things from you. People can go to multiple forums.
 

david1978

Yea its definitely not steeling. It was someone asking others to try something new. Most would of kept both. It just sounds like the forum is scared that its not the best and people will leave if offered an alternative and never return.
 

Mike

You did compare it to stealing in both metaphors. Taking something when someone isn't looking is stealing. You've compared them to stealing multiple times, although they aren't taking things from you. People can go to multiple forums.

Perhaps. But if said member(s) didn't know about the other forum until they were contacted by a banned member's buddy or buddies, trying to recruit for the other forum, using our system to do so mind you, that's called poaching in the forum world. And it is heavily frowned upon, underhanded, distasteful and tacky. Now, if those members found the other forum on their OWN and decided to join the other forum? Then all is well, no harm no foul.

Sorry if I'm not making myself clear. We just ask that you not do that using our forum.
 

shutterbug13

I just want to say, thank you Mike, Lucy, Coradee, and jdhef for all the work you do on here! I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into running fishlore
 

Cricket lynn mclean

DoubleDutch nailed it
 

misfittoy

In case you didn't know, it's not that people can't be a part of other forums. It's that you can't use a forum to recruit members to a different forum of the same type. You can do it through some other means though. Not through FL's system.
Yes, thanks, I’m following along. I just think it’s rather dramatic to ban people for telling others where a former member can be found.

If Mike thinks all this drama is worth it, then, well, that’s interesting.
 

Cricket lynn mclean

Yep warnings are usually sent privately or they get posted on their profile if necessary. And personal info will always get edited out of the public threads. That's to protect the members since we get crawled by countless robots looking for such info. If you need to send personal info use the conversation feature and don't post it in a thread. And the thing with bans is that since we don't discuss them as mentioned in the first post of this thread, you may only be getting one side of the story.
I get that. Read it. Thing is. It's not transparent. Perception is reality. I'm a member of both forums (and many others) and this one is by far superior in every way except transparency (moderating). I honestly believe no body would leave and never come back were it not for all the banning. You can't beat fishlore otherwise. Such a shame.
 

Lucy

Welp, I've had enough of this merry-ground. Mike has tried to address the concerns expressed in this thread.
It's apparent anything he says will be thrown back at him.
Rules were broken. People were banned. End of story.

Thread closed.
 

ryanr

I have no problem with the rules, but let me see if I got this correct our privet PM are not privet ? If not than why call them privet ? That just seems to lull us into thinking we can talk to each other through PM's without anybody being to read our privet stuff. If this truly is the case that would be very bad. Is that not CENSORSHIP, very bad.
Hi, not sure if this is addressed later in the thread, but I'll address it now...

Your PM's are private, Moderators, CAN NOT, I stress CAN NOT view PM's. However, if a member reports a PM, then that specific PM is visible to moderators as part of the report (understandably), but we cannot willy nilly scroll through PM's like a Facebook news feed. Nor can we, following a report, view any other PM sent, it is purely the reported PM that we see.
Visitor messages are however visible to all members, not just mods.
If there is a very serious issue developing, then the administrator (not mods) of Fishlore, can if necessary, retrieve and view all PM's to/from any member. (this is not easy, nor something that is done regularly, but necessary to comply with various laws)
 

ryanr

Re the 'stealing'/poaching aspect.
Let me put it this way.... In the USA where litigation is high, and data security is higher.
If Target gained access to, and used K-Mart's database of customers or marketing platform to e-mail a promotion, there'd be a law suit claiming breach of privacy.

Imagine: "oh you shop at costco, and as a member, we're contacting you to come be a member of costco2.0"; you'd all hit the roof with complaints - how'd they get my data?

EDIT: Or another way of putting it, you're a member at Costco, and someone starts their own membership based retailer. That someone is a Costco member, and then uses that membership to go into Costco and start handing out flyers to Costco members to go join their shop. You'd find that pretty odd that Costco would let that happen in their own stores, and wonder why that person isn't banned from Costco and their membership withdrawn.... Why should online forums allow the behaviour?

Fact is, Fishlore is a big database of e-mail addresses and members, you as members, gave your details to Fishlore, not the world. If you happened to give your details to someone else on the forum (equivalent to saying yes, share my details with 3rd parties), and they contact you via those details, then fine, you gave that up.

We, as a forum operators (admins and mods) have an obligation to protect the membership and your data from what essentially amounts to SPAM (unsolicited contact for another enterprise).

Forget that it may have been another forum, what if it was something more sinister, or unsavoury? you'd all be reporting the messages/contact, and probably trying to sue Fishlore for allowing it to happen. Fact is, Fishlore is NOT a mass-marketing service, it is a forum, with it's own membership.

It's protection of data, protection of members from unsolicited contact, protection of a customer base (yes I used that term). If all y'all want to go giving out details to other members, then do so at your own peril. Fishlore is not responsible for what you might get in the mail (so to speak), but for those that didn't sign up for that, then we'll try our best to protect you. Fishlore's systems aren't meant for mass-marketing activities.

I hope that puts some perspective on it.
 

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