A New Seachem Prime Competitor...

This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.

So weird...Safe says it detoxifies nitrates so the biofilter can remove it more easily. But that doesn't make sense. Nitrate is hardly toxic in the first place, and beneficial bacteria don't eat it so it can't be taken away in the biofilter.

fish do not die from 5ppm nitrites or even higher for like even days. no visible effect to them at all.

I agree - I once had a nitrite spike a few years back with no fish loss or signs of stress. I don't think it's as toxic as people say. Still better to be on the safe side, since anything in high enough concentration can be toxic (ever heard of water poisoning in humans?)

it's a dechlorinator, and I use far less of it to do the job than other products, it's why I use it. What's in it and the process, well, that's proprietary and they aren't sharing, rather they are being vague when asked how it works and change the answers given when called out that it's not plausible. It's not that they don't know, come on. They know what it does or doesn't do, but if people are going to tell them "hey this worked to keep my fish alive!", why not run with those testimonies.

I mean Ammonia tests in the hobby as an example. Since introduced they are total ammonia nitrate (TAN) tests. it gives you ammonia and ammonium totals in the readings, the only one that is concerning is the ammonia. Nobody knows this until experience sets in, the petstores don't know this either for the most part or how to read the ammonia test and cross it with the pH test to figure out how much free ammonia there might be and if it's dangerous for the fish or not.
Rather than use a Free ammonia nitrate test (FAN), which likely wouldn't be sensitive enough in an aquarium setting, unless really expensive tool, so it can't be done cheaply, the hobby as a whole just says "ammonia bad, don't have ammonia", and tells people above .50 or 1ppm ammonia will kill their fish.

in my opinion, THAT's WHERE the misleading and cashgrab starts and everyone is just riding it out. how many water tests get sold a year? of those "kits" sold how many of people know the ammonia test isn't even close to accurate about the danger level that is present?

Right...that's a common issue. Fish deaths to due ammonia. Folks just need to CYCLE their tanks, and know pH effects on ammonia.

What if I told you I don't even test for ammonia ever like at least 5 years now, more like 10 years.

Same here. My oldest tank is 3 years old (I've been in the hobby for 11 years now I think?) but I frequently change out tanks and stock (I rescue fish and find good homes for them - I can't keep everyone...) Anyhow, I haven't tested ammonia or nitrite in that tank since.

There's people that swear pH 9.2 alkaline water is healthy to drink, that it's going to have some beneficial effect, I say "HOW"?
Once it's hits your stomach it's pH 1.5-2.0 just like the acid in there and everything else you swallow.
(by the way as the high alkaline water sits without a buffer open to the air, it loses pH the moment it's in contact with air, but the believers don't believe that either, the fishkeeprs know this though!)

You just brought up another topic that I hate...Your body is meant to keep things stable. Drinking 9.4 pH water WON'T DO ANYTHING. It has 0 health effects and literally doesn't even enter your body at the same pH. Stomach acid instantly brings it down to 1.5-5 (depending on the person.) Then it neutralizes it to 7.35-7.45 (pH of blood) so it can safely travel in your bloodstream. In other words, not only does alkaline water instantly NOT WORK, but it has 0 health effects. Well, you can technically say it has negative health effects when it drains your money and leads to stress.

Marketing. I won't go as far to call stuff snake oil, I will say people believe and trust what they believe and trust and there's no telling them otherwise. is it dishonest to sell people what they want and believe in? Perhaps....but there's a whole lot of that out there, not just with prime.

True. When we attempt to avoid GMO's, we still eat fruit and keep glofish. Those expensive organic bananas are genetically modified. And yes, the term 'organic' is also a scam. Thanks to marketing and disinformation (intentionally lying to consumers), folks think organic apples haven't been genetically modified or treated with pesticides, herbicides, fungicides. The truth is here. The definition of organic is a material or organism that wasn't created in a lab. Artifical is a food or object that was. Organic foods aren't cide-free. If they were, bugs would've gotten to them sooner before we would.

 

Research shows that nitrite toxicity is species specific.

"There is a large body of information on nitrite’s toxicity to
fish, shrimp and other aquatic organisms. The 96-hour LC50s (50% death rate at 96hours. LC= lethal concentration) for nitrite-nitrogen typically range 10.00-30.00 mg/L for fresh-
water invertebrates and 0.25-100.00 mg/L for fish."

For Rainbow Trout, the 96hr LC50 is 0.24ppm-11ppm. Cutthroat trout are at 0.5ppm. For Largemouth Bass it is 140ppm. That a huge difference.

Nitrite toxicity decreases with salinity.
Cold water species are much more susceptible to nitrite toxicity.

"...aquaculturists want to avoid negative effects of nitrite on growth and increased susceptibility to
diseases that occur at much lower concentrations than the LC50

"Safe concentrations for continuous exposure of aquatic animals to nitrite and other common toxins often are estimated as 0.05 or 0.10 of the 96-hour LC50. Based on reported LC50s,
safe concentrations of nitrite-nitrogen in freshwater range 0.0125-0.5000 mg/L for coldwater fish and 0.5000-2.5000
mg/L for invertebrates and warmwater fish."

Claude E. Boyd, Ph.D.
Department of Fisheries
and Allied Aquacultures
Auburn University

 

So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to

So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to

Whoops hit reply.... so quick to assume. These conversations are extremely helpful for everyone because as everyone here has proven, the information out there could be better.

 

That would be great. I think it has to start with retailers as that is usually the way people enter the hobby. But it does not happen, so many people end up here because there is a problem, usually after doing what the store told (or didn't) them to do.

As for knowing how things work, well I prefer to know, so if anything goes wrong, I can address it knowingly for greatest effect. Some people have no desire to understand and only want to be told what to do. That's fine, but don't ask me to act dumb when someone asks a question. There are basic things a fishkeeper needs to know and I try to keep it at the level of the OP. Everyone on this thread seems interested, so I don't see the problem.

Also I think there is a difference about knowing how a computer works and how to keep a fish alive. I bring my computer to the shop for repair. Where should I bring my dead fish to get it fixed. It's incumbent on anyone caring for a living creature to step up and be responsible. That doesn't mean being a chemist.

"folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that."
I totally agree. I haven't seen people being shamed here for not understanding chemistry and suggest you alert moderaters when you notice it.

 

So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to

Whoops hit reply.... so quick to assume. These conversations are extremely helpful for everyone because as everyone here has proven, the information out there could be better.

I agree. Obviously not everyone has to be a chemist or else they're incompetent. That's like saying I should've been born knowing how to bake and because I don't, I'm a bad person. We all have learning curves to overcome whether it be with a hobby, learning how to spend the money you earn responsibly, avoiding debt, learning how to drive, or trying new foods. Goodness knows I've learned a lot within 11 years of fishkeeping. I'm sure my grandfather-in-law has learned even more in 30 years of fishkeeping.

What doesn't change is the fact that many folks are ignorant, and don't even think to research a pet before they get it. COVID puppies anyone?

I started out with a tiny loner female betta sitting on a pet store shelf and putting her in a 4 gallon shoebox bin. I had done 3 years of research in a hospital getting chemo before getting her. Now I know, most people's learning curves is realizing they should've took time to research the specific pet but I just can't see how it isn't obvious? Most people don't even ask a pet store associate (you should never take the advice to heart, but it's still more than what most folks do when getting pets like fish.) This isn't 1983; we all have cell phones, WiFi, and internet to discover whatever we want, whenever, wherever. It's so easy and takes only a few minutes' search "how to keep betta fish." My mother had to ride a city bus and go to a library to find stuff like this as a teen (of course, having 3 abusive parents didn't help either.)

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. You don't have to be anyone (like a chemist or biologist) to keep a fish but you should take a few minutes to search up if that fish is even a good fit. It's cruel to when a baby oscar lives in a 10 gal and upgrade every time they gain an inch, but ultimately "retire" in only a 29 gal because "well, they can turn around!" Join a forum if you want! It won't even take 30 minutes out of your "busy" day.

(P.S. I should mention that I say 'you' socially. I'm not actually pointing you out specifically.)

FishDin yes, I agree. Read this ^

 

I agree. Obviously not everyone has to be a chemist or else they're incompetent. That's like saying I should've been born knowing how to bake and because I don't, I'm a bad person. We all have learning curves to overcome whether it be with a hobby, learning how to spend the money you earn responsibly, avoiding debt, learning how to drive, or trying new foods. Goodness knows I've learned a lot within 11 years of fishkeeping. I'm sure my grandfather-in-law has learned even more in 30 years of fishkeeping.

What doesn't change is the fact that many folks are ignorant, and don't even think to research a pet before they get it. COVID puppies anyone?

I started out with a tiny loner female betta sitting on a pet store shelf and putting her in a 4 gallon shoebox bin. I had done 3 years of research in a hospital getting chemo before getting her. Now I know, most people's learning curves is realizing they should've took time to research the specific pet but I just can't see how it isn't obvious? Most people don't even ask a pet store associate (you should never take the advice to heart, but it's still more than what most folks do when getting pets like fish.) This isn't 1983; we all have cell phones, WiFi, and internet to discover whatever we want, whenever, wherever. It's so easy and takes only a few minutes' search "how to keep betta fish." My mother had to ride a city bus and go to a library to find stuff like this as a teen (of course, having 3 abusive parents didn't help either.)

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. You don't have to be anyone (like a chemist or biologist) to keep a fish but you should take a few minutes to search up if that fish is even a good fit. It's cruel to when a baby oscar lives in a 10 gal and upgrade every time they gain an inch, but ultimately "retire" in only a 29 gal because "well, they can turn around!". Join a forum if you want! It won't even take 30 minutes out of your "busy" day.

(P.S. I should mention that I say 'you' socially. I'm not actually pointing you out specifically.)

FishDin yes, I agree. Read this ^

100% agree with everything you said. I was handed a Betta still in a bag at a family dinner saying "you want this?" The person who gave him to me said just get a bowl, that's all you need, here's some pellets. Then I started reading. I'm not intending to slam anyone on here, the exact opposite. It's one thing to understand what we need to do, it's another to understand all the science behind it. We can do alot of good for the hobby by Baking on the other hand - I'm beyond hope. I once made an angel food cake that couldn't be cut with a chainsaw.

That would be great. I think it has to start with retailers as that is usually the way people enter the hobby. But it does not happen, so many people end up here because there is a problem, usually after doing what the store told (or didn't) them to do.

As for knowing how things work, well I prefer to know, so if anything goes wrong, I can address it knowingly for greatest effect. Some people have no desire to understand and only want to be told what to do. That's fine, but don't ask me to act dumb when someone asks a question. There are basic things a fishkeeper needs to know and I try to keep it at the level of the OP. Everyone on this thread seems interested, so I don't see the problem.

Also I think there is a difference about knowing how a computer works and how to keep a fish alive. I bring my computer to the shop for repair. Where should I bring my dead fish to get it fixed. It's incumbent on anyone caring for a living creature to step up and be responsible. That doesn't mean being a chemist.

"folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that."
I totally agree. I haven't seen people being shamed here for not understanding chemistry and suggest you alert moderaters when you notice it.

Absolutely agree. And my comments were absolutely aimed at retailers and the industry if I'm being honest. If you go back and read it should make sense. I didn't make it very clear I suppose. I do not advocate for people who just want press and play with live animals and I'm sorry if you felt I did. I would never suggest or advocate for that for anything, not just fish keeping. I do think if I'm buying a product that says it does ABC, is well reviewed and I need something for ABC I'm buying that product. I don't think that makes me gullible. Yes it's a very interesting thread and sadly yes sometimes folks can be a little condescending. However, my reference in my comment about some experienced aquarists not to assume is still all around the whole information issue. It's not an indication that someone has just not done their research or homework. Information is poorly given at every turn, especially pet stores, and that includes which products to use. I'm on this thread because of the OP. The last thing I expected to see was alllll of this..... just when I think I have it figured out! It's never ending that's for sure.

 

100% agree with everything you said. I was handed a Betta still in a bag at a family dinner saying "you want this?" The person who gave him to me said just get a bowl, that's all you need, here's some pellets. Then I started reading. I'm not intending to slam anyone on here, the exact opposite. It's one thing to understand what we need to do, it's another to understand all the science behind it. We can do alot of good for the hobby by Baking on the other hand - I'm beyond hope. I once made an angel food cake that couldn't be cut with a chainsaw.

Absolutely agree. And my comments were absolutely aimed at retailers and the industry if I'm being honest. If you go back and read it should make sense. I didn't make it very clear I suppose. I do not advocate for people who just want press and play with live animals and I'm sorry if you felt I did. I would never suggest or advocate for that for anything, not just fish keeping. I do think if I'm buying a product that says it does ABC, is well reviewed and I need something for ABC I'm buying that product. I don't think that makes me gullible. Yes it's a very interesting thread and sadly yes sometimes folks can be a little condescending. However, my reference in my comment about some experienced aquarists not to assume is still all around the whole information issue. It's not an indication that someone has just not done their research or homework. Information is poorly given at every turn, especially pet stores, and that includes which products to use. I'm on this thread because of the OP. The last thing I expected to see was alllll of this..... just when I think I have it figured out! It's never ending that's for sure.

There's no need to be apologetic. You did nothing wrong.

Yeah, sometimes this happens. I make a thread, people respond, then a whole other conversation happens within it. You never know what to expect on forums, even awesome ones like Fishlore