A New Seachem Prime Competitor...

Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

 

Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

I guess someone'll have to try it out and see! If it says it does all of that, I'd say its Fin. However, I do love API so it might just be me

 

BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

but is it the same concentration?

 

but is it the same concentration?

5mL treats 50 gallons, just like Prime

 

5mL treats 50 gallons, just like Prime

wut? 1ml per 10 gallons?!?! I shouldve switched to Prime already!! why havent I?

 

wut? 1ml per 10 gallons?!?! I shouldve switched to Prime already!! why havent I?

Oh Prime is awesome, and if Aqua Essentials turns out to be fin and not fraud, it'd be a better price

 

Oh Prime is awesome, and if Aqua Essentials turns out to be fin and not fraud, it'd be a better price

oh pleco poo. I WAS gonna switch to Prime, but now I gotta wait to see if APIAE is good, however I'm nearly out of conditioner, what to do D:

 

Lovely lady from API sent me a bottle. I could use it after I finish my bottle of API stress coat, or use the other bottles they sent me such has their high concentration conditioner. I can test it out later but I feel like i should just use up the other conditioners they sent me instead of the Essentials and to save that instead of any possible spikes to detoxify. I can always try and in fish cycle with it on a spare 10 gallon I might have laying around.

 

Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

Does API offer any evidence to support the "detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates" claims or is it just like Prime in that regard also?

 

Does API offer any evidence to support the "detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates" claims or is it just like Prime in that regard also?

Someone should really do a "test" to see if Prime is legit. Like have live constant Tests or something.

 

Does API offer any evidence to support the "detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates" claims or is it just like Prime in that regard also?

API is a pretty big player in the game so I'm sure it would behoove them that their product works somewhat to what they describe, but hey...you never know lol. I figured they didn't want to lose sales to Seachem in the detoxifying/conditioner department lol so I wasn't too surprised they came out with Essentials. From what I read, as far as conditioner goes...everyone talks about prime. I actually didn't even know Essentials came out until I received it in the box that API sent me.

 

Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

Ive seen a guy who has used it for a while, his youtube is MD tanks. I think it would work well.

 

erm.. prime vs. AE.

We might as well throw in Fritz Complete into the mix

 

We might as well throw in Fritz Complete into the mix

Never heard of it!

We might as well throw in Fritz Complete into the mix

This looks incredible, taking the ammonium nitrate and nitrite out! WOW!

 

Fritz Complete also does the same thing as Prime.

 

Fritz Complete also does the same thing as Prime.

op I did not know that my bad

 

Neither did I!
Prime and Fritz Complete *battling for best conditioner*
PLAYER 3 Has joined (AE)

 

I only switched to Prime a year ago after joining this group and reading about how great it was. (used API conditioner prior to that, still have some too)

Considering the small dosing amount required and the size of my bottle it'll be a while until I need another.

Someone should really do a "test" to see if Prime is legit. Like have live constant Tests or something.

Aquarium science guy did and says it doesn't do anything to detoxify ammonia or nitrites.

 

Someone should really do a "test" to see if Prime is legit. Like have live constant Tests or something.

It has been done by chemists. It's been shown to have no effect on ammonia. Seachem has acknowledged that they only have anecdotal "evidence" suggesting that Prime neutralizes ammonia, but no actual testing.

Prime IS legit as a water conditioner, it just doesn't do anything else. It's my go-to conditioner.

 

i'm an anecdotal believer in Prime. i've had a couple of Nitrite spikes over the past couple years. each time the goldfish were visibly distressed. nitrite tested dark purple, did 50% water change, still purple. added a double dose of Prime, a few minutes later all the goldfish were swimming around normally.

i started with the 16oz bottles from Petsmart. then i started buying the 1gal jugs off ebay. now i have a 1gal bucket of Safe (powder Prime).

 

i'm an anecdotal believer in Prime. i've had a couple of Nitrite spikes over the past couple years. each time the goldfish were visibly distressed. nitrite tested dark purple, did 50% water change, still purple. added a double dose of Prime, a few minutes later all the goldfish were swimming around normally.

i started with the 16oz bottles from Petsmart. then i started buying the 1gal jugs off ebay. now i have a 1gal bucket of Safe (powder Prime).

Thats awsome! how big is your tank?

 

Thats awsome! how big is your tank?

started with two 20g tubs. then a 29g tank, then a 75g and turned the 29g into a sump for the 75g.

also, from what i remember, probably not 100% accurate, but wasn't Amquel Kordon the 1st or one of the 1st to detox ammonia? they used some sort of sulfur compound. Seachem Prime/Safe uses a different sulfur compound to get around the patent.

 

maybe its Aquascience, here's their patent about detoxing ammonia.

from page 5

In summary, the invention relates to a process for neutralizing chloramines, chlorine and ammonia in water by adding an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite in a dry or solution form in which the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is selected from the group consisting of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and potassium formaldehydebisulfite. In a preferred embodiment, the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is sodium formaldehydebisulfite added in the amount at least equal to the greater of the quantity required to react on a one to one molecular basis with a reactant selected from the group consisting of 4 times the stoichiometric amount of ammonia, 12 times the stoichiometric amount of monochloramine, 10 times the stoichiometric amount of dichloramine and 12 times the stoichiometric amount of chlorine in the form of hypochlorites present in the water to be treated.

Unless otherwise stated herein, indication of parts or percentages are given on a weight basis. I have discovered that an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is unexpectedly effective and safe to neutralize chlorine, chloramine and ammonia from saline and fresh waters for use in aquaculture. A pure alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite, a mixture of alkali metal formaldehydebisulfites, or a mixture of one or more alkali metal formaldehydebisulfites with various diluents, carriers or other inert ingredients can be utilized directly in dry or solution form in untreated water to neutralize by chemical reaction any aqueous chloramines, chlorine and ammonia which may be present in order to render the water nontoxic for aquatic life.

Neither the reaction mechanism, nor the reaction products, by which the phenomena of neutralizing chloramines, chlorine and ammonia in water with an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is understood. However, experimental research shows reaction completion of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and the representative target compounds including free chlorine in the form of sodium hypochlorite (NaOCI), free ammonia (NH3), and monochloramine (NH2CI) to eliminate the toxic effects of the target compounds in aquaculture. The results show that under conditions of varying pH, hardness, and salinity that sodium formaldehydebisulfite was capable of simultaneously reducing the concentrations of all three representative target compounds to safe levels. Further research indicates effectiveness under representative aquaculture working conditions by reducing free ammonia levels in existing freshwater and marine aquarium water and by neutralizing free chlorine and chloramines in freshly drawn potable tap water.

also i have read that Prime contains sodium dithionite, which has been shown to reverse the effects of methemoglobin, which is caused by nitrite poisoning.


Reduction and suppression of methemoglobin loaded in the polymeric nanoparticles intended for blood substitutes - PubMed


Abstract:

Oxidation of hemoglobin (Hb) to nonfunctional methemoglobin (metHb) is a main challenge for the fabrication of an ideal Hb-based blood substitute. In this study, a novel nonenzymatic reduction and suppression route, combined with a fast prereduction, optimized double emulsion preparation, and a second sustaining postreduction, was developed to control the metHb in Hb-loaded nanoparticles (HbP) with porous microstructure to a desirable level. In the prereduction, the metHb in the raw Hb was effectively reduced from over 90% to 1.2% using sodium dithionite following gel filtration separation. During the preparation, higher the emulsion strength performed, higher was the extent of Hb oxidized. PEGylated polymer and addition of miscible solvent, such as acetonitrile, into the oil phase could pronouncedly suppress metHb formation. The resultant metHb level in HbP under the optimal fabrication was about 5.6%, which could be further reduced to 1.4% by the model reducing agents in human plasma with the help of superoxide dismutatse and catalase system, which are capable of sustaining postreduction. The oxygen dissociation curve of the HbP was close to that of native Hb, indicating that the oxygen-carrying ability of the Hb, despite initially losing this function due to the severe oxidation, recovered and retained well. The results achieved are promising for the fabrication of blood substitutes with controlled metHb level, which can fulfill the binding/delivering oxygen to tissues in vivo for future trials.

 

maybe its Aquascience, here's their patent about detoxing ammonia.

from page 5

also i have read that Prime contains sodium dithionite, which has been shown to reverse the effects of methemoglobin, which is caused by nitrite poisoning.


Reduction and suppression of methemoglobin loaded in the polymeric nanoparticles intended for blood substitutes - PubMed


Abstract:

Well it definitely detoxifies nitrites it seems, but ammonia is still mixed :/

 

that API Aqua Essential saysd it's 5ml per 50 gallons, as a dechlorinator, Add 5 ml. per 10 gallons of aquarium water to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

prime is just 5ml per 50 gallons.

Fritz Complete, is the same dosage as Prime, so of the 3, Aqua Essential uses more product to do the same thing, hence costs more overall.

As far as Prime and Fritz, they do different measures for the packaging, Fritz is in Oz, and Prime is in ML, Prime is a little more expensive, but I think by volume, the prices are close to near the same.
like Prime is 250ml (8.45oz) = $9.89 and Fritz is $9.24 for 8 oz.(236ml) prices may vary where you are of course. the difference is like 1/1000 of a cent per ml prime being slightly more costly.

Personal preference, Prime. It works fine for me since I found it, I trust it, and I've not lost fish to ammonia or nitrites, or even nitrates.
MAYBE, it's my pH, and totally not Prime related, I will say this, when I didn't use it and just used a simple dechlorinator, I lost fish, I had problems. THe articles on aquarium science, are incredibly Anti SeaChem,and Anti prime. Studys are done just like polls, to prove or disprove whatever they like depending on who's study it is.

Believe or don't believe it's up to you. Seachem and Fritz and API now make the same claims, So at this point you'd think one or the other, or the other, have cracked the secret, and it's doing something and someone must be bitter for some reason.

heck, don't use any of it, just use a dechlorinator and best of luck, that probably works most of the time also, considering how much ammonia is ammonia at aquarium pHs, ect. ect. ect.

 

Bought the API today to use for chlorine removal after water changes

 

I've just switched from Prime to Continuum Aquatics Fraction which is the same strength but I can get it more than 30% cheaper.

 

that API Aqua Essential saysd it's 5ml per 50 gallons, as a dechlorinator, Add 5 ml. per 10 gallons of aquarium water to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

prime is just 5ml per 50 gallons.

From Seachem: To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose (of Prime) may be used. That would be 5ml per 10 gal.

Prime does claim that it is the most concentrated product on the market except for one other Seachem product.

 

I use seachum safe with my 75 grow out. 1/4 a teaspoon for 75 gallons. my son had this little scooper thing that came with his pretzel cheese dip that comes out to 1/4 of a teaspoon and I literally use a tiny dash of it in a 5 gallon bucket, depending on which method I’m going for.
i’ve only ever dose the tank one time using the 1/4 tablespoon. A couple months back there was a power outage and I need to do a water change. I had a spike of ammonia and so I put some water from the tank in a bucket filled it up and then dumped it into my tank. Fish didn’t seem to notice or anything although I was a little concerned I know this concentration is typically for pond use so following directions it’s very important.
Anyway, the ammonia that was a little over one ppm was undetectable in 25 minutes after three Test about 7 to 10 minutes apart. Power came back on the next morning I checked the ammonia was still at zero, but I went ahead and did a water change. But I paid $30 for the container six months ago and I’m not sure that I can even notice a difference in the line.
I absolutely feel that the larger volume of water you have the more benefit you’ll have from using something like this, but I still have had great success with it.
I also respect everybody’s opinions, beliefs, and thoughts on this forum. I’m just sharing what works for me and my journey.

 

Interesting. If you had used Prime, your ammonia test results would have not changed. Prime is claimed to detox ammonia, but Seachem says that it will be not efffect the test results. While the ammonia is "detoxed" it is still present, measurable with testing and available to the bacteria to consume.

I would have assumed that Safe was just Prime in powder form because their patent says it works as a liquid or solid, but who knows...?

Edit: just noticed that there is one difference between the 2 products. Prime detoxifies heavy metals and safe does not.

 

School should make people sensitive to logical fallacies from an early age on.

Here's the best study I know of, killing Prime's detox capabilities.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.

Falsifiable means you can replicate the study at home and see for yourself.

But there's nothing.

It's amazing how many people fall for this with 0 proof. Or actually, there is limited proof it doesn't do anything.

I still need to study jtjgg's paper though.

 

Interesting. If you had used Prime, your ammonia test results would have not changed. Prime is claimed to detox ammonia, but Seachem says that it will be not efffect the test results. While the ammonia is "detoxed" it is still present, measurable with testing and available to the bacteria to consume.

I would have assumed that Safe was just Prime in powder form because their patent says it works as a liquid or solid, but who knows...?

This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.

 

ruud, thanks for posting that. I've have not been allowed to do so myself as it got me in trouble with moderators.

This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.

I'm not doubting you at all. Just trying to get my head around this topic too.

 

This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.

Any dechlorinator might have done the same. Read this page of the thread I posted above:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

Keep in mind, multiple factors affect readings, and at different paces. Very short term, factor X could have reduced a reading. A day later, factor Y could have reduced a reading. But because factor X was a human intervention, and factor Y is something you are unaware off, you attribute the second reading to factor X also.

ruud, thanks for posting that. I've have not been allowed to do so myself as it got me in trouble with moderators.

I'm not doubting you at all. Just trying to get my head around this topic too.

Is Seachem sponsor of Fishlore?

 

School should make people sensitive to logical fallacies from an early age on.

Here's the best study I know of, killing Prime's detox capabilities.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.

Falsifiable means you can replicate the study at home and see for yourself.

But there's nothing.

It's amazing how many people fall for this with 0 proof. Or actually, there is limited proof it doesn't do anything.

I would like to see this done on a broader scale with a larger spectrum of products. But OK. Hard to ignore evidence

 

If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.

They do say they have no idea how it works, but that customers tell them that it does. Apparently that's all they need as proof...

But OK. Hard to ignore evidence

Not for some.

 

I think it’ll be interesting to do that test with seachum, safe with beneficial bacteria in the water because on the back of this, it says it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero

 

I think it’ll be interesting to do that test with seachum, safe with beneficial bacteria in the water because on the back of this, it says it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero

"it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero"

I have absolutely no idea what this means. Perhaps the marketing guy at Seachem can elaborate.

It's like saying "we know fish deaths are probably almost never attributable to ammonia/nitrogen, but let's blame ammonia for all deaths" .... "also in most fish tanks, NH3 is neglible" ... "also a few studies have shown NH3 kills only slowly, not overnight, giving beneficial microbes time to populate" ... "in planted tanks, who even cares about ammonia, well plants do of course" ... "so dose whatever Prime, Safe, or whatever sulfite you have, and your fish will be fine - 100.000 believers can't be wrong". Truth is oftentimes democratic.

 

Personal story.
I use seachem prime, I change water now weekly 50%. I'm been up front in other threads about why I change so much water on that tank and my current over stocking level so neither is a secret, just not very important to the story here. What is important is my pH is now coming up. 6.4 on the previous water change, 6.6 on the latest water change last weekend. With that pH rise, I have nitrites, currently sitting at 1ppm. it's been as high as 5ppm this time last week and not as high as 10ppm but was heading that way. it's coming down now, but when I hit 6.4, this is when it appeared and ran up and now back down. Adjustments of the bacteria colony with the pH change I assume. the nitrite rise also coincided with a massive diatom bloom that is now also getting under control with the nitrites going down again.

Anyways, Prime works for like 24- 48 hours. I do not dose it outside of the water change at all, and fish do not die from 5ppm nitrites or even higher for like even days. no visible effect to them at all.

So is it the prime? Are some fish just more sensitive than other species to nitrites? does pH and temp have an effect on nitrites?
Theres' about 100 questions really, and the answer is,,,,, who knows. I know if I were new to fishkeeping and I tested ammonia or nitrites and saw 5ppm, and dosed prime and the fish lived, I'd assume,"yeah, prime does what it says" . However, knowing more about water and pH and ammonia and nitrogen cycle, and yada yada, I'd think it doesn't do anything and it's likely the natural process doing it and not killing things.

As far as it goes, a bunch of products make this claim now, do ANY of them actually do anything to ammonia or nitrites that the temp and pH couldn't do itself, or some other random set of circumstances and fish tolerances that make a high reading still safe that gets attributed to these products.... Could be, most likely actually.

I can't blame a company for marketing, people say it works, just like people say those red copper pans are nonstick, but every one I have needs to be scrubbed like no tomorrow after cooking anything in it, everything sticks like it's coated with glue. LOL

it's a dechlorinator, and I use far less of it to do the job than other products, it's why I use it. What's in it and the process, well, that's proprietary and they aren't sharing, rather they are being vague when asked how it works and change the answers given when called out that it's not plausible. It's not that they don't know, come on. They know what it does or doesn't do, but if people are going to tell them "hey this worked to keep my fish alive!", why not run with those testimonies.

I mean Ammonia tests in the hobby as an example. Since introduced they are total ammonia nitrate (TAN) tests. it gives you ammonia and ammonium totals in the readings, the only one that is concerning is the ammonia. Nobody knows this until experience sets in, the petstores don't know this either for the most part or how to read the ammonia test and cross it with the pH test to figure out how much free ammonia there might be and if it's dangerous for the fish or not.
Rather than use a Free ammonia nitrate test (FAN), which likely wouldn't be sensitive enough in an aquarium setting, unless really expensive tool, so it can't be done cheaply, the hobby as a whole just says "ammonia bad, don't have ammonia", and tells people above .50 or 1ppm ammonia will kill their fish.

in my opinion, THAT's WHERE the misleading and cashgrab starts and everyone is just riding it out. how many water tests get sold a year? of those "kits" sold how many of people know the ammonia test isn't even close to accurate about the danger level that is present?

What if I told you I don't even test for ammonia ever like at least 5 years now, more like 10 years.

Man I wanted to when I saw the nitrites, bet on that, but I don't even own a method to test it and instead let it ride, having faith in my pH, my bacteria colony, and my fish as well as my ability to water change if anyone acted weird... they haven't, but I DO NOT think the dosing prime 1x a week with a 50% water change is protecting me, sure it's protecting them from chlorine, that's about it.

I could however say it must be the prime, it's the only thing I use, what else could it be? I could say that if I didn't understand more about this than a beginner does.

There's people that swear pH 9.2 alkaline water is healthy to drink, that it's going to have some beneficial effect, I say "HOW"?
Once it's hits your stomach it's pH 1.5-2.0 just like the acid in there and everything else you swallow.
(by the way as the high alkaline water sits without a buffer open to the air, it loses pH the moment it's in contact with air, but the believers don't believe that either, the fishkeeprs know this though!)

Marketing. I won't go as far to call stuff snake oil, I will say people believe and trust what they believe and trust and there's no telling them otherwise. is it dishonest to sell people what they want and believe in? Perhaps....but there's a whole lot of that out there, not just with prime.

 

If I don’t read the word prime 20+ times a day across the board id be shocked. Since the internet it finishes many sentences on aquarium forums. Not just hear every site every Facebook sites. Id think people are getting royalty checks . It wasn’t even around 40 yrs ago the 80s. What did people do? How did they keep tanks?

Of all the gimmicky stuff in this hobby I’ve found prime does detoxify chlorine. The only time I use it is when the water company is cleaning the pipes. My charcoal filter and prime have saved my fish a few times. So for that I do keep it and may use it a few times a year.