A Big New Tank - Which way to go? Angels or Africans

Backstory (skip if you want to): I kept a lot of aquariums when I was a kid and up through college, but I have been living abroad for many, many years now and I am just finally getting back into aquariums. I have my own house now and young kids to be fascinated with the fish.
I am in the process of getting a big tank. 48"x24"x30". About 140 gallons with a 20 gallon+ sump underneath. Money is not such a limiting factor as when I was young, and I am finally putting together a tank that I could have dreamed of when I was young. Also, dear lord things have changed a lot in the last 20 years.

Anyways, on to the question. There is no real right answer to this question, I am just looking for peoples' experiences.

Which way to go with the new tank? African cichlids or Angelfish? I kept a lot of new world cichlids when I was younger, and the africans really appeal to me. The flash. The color. The challenge. The beauty. But... I also don't really have the space for a second tank. So a quarantine tank that was big enough would be difficult. Finding quality fish where I live can be a bit iffy too. Most of the fish shops I have been to ... the cichlids have all been doped to add color. Not all of the fish shops, but a lot of them.

A big angelfish tank sounds kindof fun. I could add plants. Some dwarf cichlids at the bottom and some schools of tetras. My kids could pick groups of fish to add (within reason) so it would be a little more involved for them. The tank would be .... peaceful.
But I am a little worried it would be boring.

For those of you who have kept both or either, what is your preference? If you had a big new tank to play with, what would you do with it?

Other fish we have been looking at: A puffer. Or maybe an oscar or flowerhorn for the puppy effect.

 

I have no experience in housing either fish but I always wanted to house Angels if I ever had the chance at having a big aquarium! I just love their marble and koi coloring, how tiny the babies are! They are just so beautiful imo, especially the long-finned angels either way , both fish can be aggressive and territorial in their own way. I would just house angels with schooling fish if it were me !

 

The parameters of your tapwater are the best help to decide in this case.

Is the tap hard: Africans
Is the tap soft: Angels

The thing is: If you got hard water it is much more effort and more technical equipment needed to make the water soft with a RO system. Also keeping the paramaters stable is much harder that way round.
If you got soft water, though, making the water hard and keeping it on that level is as easy as adding a bag of crushed coral to the filter and/or using limestone for rock scapes.

Generally it's always best to keep fish that are suited for your water source.

 

A lot depends on if you want a heavily planted tank. I like plants so africans are out. Also i think i would do neither. Why not go for red head geo and rams ?

 

The parameters of your tapwater are the best help to decide in this case.

Is the tap hard: Africans
Is the tap soft: Angels

The thing is: If you got hard water it is much more effort and more technical equipment needed to make the water soft with a RO system. Also keeping the paramaters stable is much harder that way round.
If you got soft water, though, making the water hard and keeping it on that level is as easy as adding a bag of crushed coral to the filter and/or using limestone for rock scapes.

Generally it's always best to keep fish that are suited for your water source.

The water sits around 7 pretty naturally. A little drift wood or peat could bring it down nicely. Or a big bag of crushed coral in the filter to go the other way. I don't want to use chemicals to alter the pH/hardness, but I think I could get a pretty stable set up either way naturally

 

With 7 you mean the pH, right? That's neutral and doesn't say anything. I was talking about KH and GH.
With natural methods you will not get super far getting water more acidic. The KH and GH buffers against that and limits how far down you can go with the pH.

Edit: pH is not the hardness, is what I wanted to say.

 

With 7 you mean the pH, right? That's neutral and doesn't say anything. I was talking about KH and GH.
With natural methods you will not get super far getting water more acidic. The KH and GH buffers against that and limits how far down you can go with the pH.

Edit: pH is not the hardness, is what I wanted to say.

Sorry, the GH is around 7 and the KH is at about 6. pH is 6.8 out of the tap

Actually, though I am pretty familiar with pH, hardness is a little unknown for me. (At least, the numbers) Growing up, we had well water that was just about hard enough to chew. Changing the parameters back then was pretty futile. And I didn't really measure it much.

 

Sorry, the GH is around 7 and the KH is at about 6. pH is 6.8 out of the tap

Actually, though I am pretty familiar with pH, hardness is a little unknown for me. (At least, the numbers) Growing up, we had well water that was just about hard enough to chew. Changing the parameters back then was pretty futile. And I didn't really measure it much.

Congrats, that's almost my parameters, which is soft. You can keep Angels. It's too soft for Africans.

 

MacZ has hit all the points. If going with angels they can get aggressive when they start pairing off. Odd angels may catch a beating from pairs. Just had a pair kill my oldest angel. But I did have 3. Never do 3.
Other nice looking fish are blue acara,geophagus and maybe some rams. For tetras Colombian and Buenos Aries tetras get big and have nice colors. A pair or 4 clown loaches will keep the tank clean and maybe some Cory’s. Just some ideas. I know nothing about Africans.

 

If I add crushed coral - or argonite sand - will that put me in range for the Africans?

A group of clown loaches is a bit of a selling point. I've always wanted those.

 

If I add crushed coral - or argonite sand - will that put me in range for the Africans?

A group of clown loaches is a bit of a selling point. I've always wanted those.

Don't use argonite sand. That mineral can contain other soluble things like lead and arsenic.

With your parameters you can push the hardness and pH up into the range of Africans, yes. May take a while until its stable, so you should do a fishless-cycle to prevent fluctuation making it even harder for the fish. Should you go for Malawi cichlids you might want to consider putting pothos plants in the sump, because many will either eat the plants or dig them up.

 

If you use crushed coral, what does it push the hardness/pH to?

 

What do You do with your soft parameters? What kindof tanks do you prefer?

 

If you use crushed coral, what does it push the hardness/pH to?

Depends on some factors. I never had to do this myself and can only speak from what I saw in other peoples tanks. When I kept African cichlids I had high hardness and pH right out of the tap, as I have soft water right from the tap now.

What do You do with your soft parameters? What kindof tanks do you prefer?

Look at my signature, I keep South American fish. Right now I only have a few cardinals and cories (the latter didn't do well, only two left), going to get Apistogramma as soon as my next pay is here. In soft water I prefer blackwater setups.

 

If you want Africans, construct a Limestone hardscape. Your 140 gal. tank could easily handle 200 lbs. of rock.
My guess is that limestone could bump your PH as high as 8.3.
My African tank is scaped with limestone. The PH is a constant 8.2.
Shop your local rockyard or landscape company.

 

BigBeardDaHuZi have you considered other Loaches with a shoal of colourful dither fish upper level swimmers such as tetras/rasboras/barbs (your tank is too small for Clown Loaches).

Loaches are naturally social fish whereas Angels and other cichlids tend to be antisocial. Loaches do not usually breed in the aquarium and do not create territories so whilst things are active and are not boring they are peaceful too. They do like to hideout some of the time though.

 

If you want Africans, construct a Limestone hardscape. Your 140 gal. tank could easily handle 200 lbs. of rock.
My guess is that limestone could bump your PH as high as 8.3.
My African tank is scaped with limestone. The PH is a constant 8.2.
Shop your local rockyard or landscape company.

That part gets harder. I have lived in China for a good decade now, but when it comes to Aquarium vocab, I am pretty weak. Worse, the dictionaries are terrible at all the words you want to know too. I can't even find the translation for “cichlid”

They definitely have the stuff I need, but it is hard to get what I need. Or even talk about it.


Still, it is something to look for

 

BigBeardDaHuZi have you considered other Loaches with a shoal of colourful dither fish upper level swimmers such as tetras/rasboras/barbs (your tank is too small for Clown Loaches).

Loaches are naturally social fish whereas Angels and other cichlids tend to be antisocial. Loaches do not usually breed in the aquarium and do not create territories so whilst things are active and are not boring they are peaceful too. They do like to hideout some of the time though.

I know clowns get pretty big. Even this tank is still too small?

 

BigBeardDaHuZi They are social fish and belong in groups. Minimum recommended aquarium size for 6 or 7 adult Clown Loaches is 6’ (180cm) x 2’ (60cm) x 2’ (60cm) = 180 US gallons / 150 Imperial Gallons or 700 litres. This is kind of accepted among keepers over the last 20 years or so and I'd agree with it. Some of us have slightly smaller tanks because we started keeping them before there was any reliable information about them.

If kept in smaller tanks Clown Loaches will be stunted and that is not considered cool.

 

Three angels do sometime work though I'm not esp recommending it. I have a M/F/F group that has been stable for 6ish months. It started as M/F - M/F. The F in the second group decided she prefer the other male - destoryed her male 3 times (i kept putting him on time-out hoping I could keep him and eventually gave him to the LFS). The male in M/F/F will sep the two females if they get too rough with each other.

MacZ has hit all the points. If going with angels they can get aggressive when they start pairing off. Odd angels may catch a beating from pairs. Just had a pair kill my oldest angel. But I did have 3. Never do 3.
Other nice looking fish are blue acara,geophagus and maybe some rams. For tetras Colombian and Buenos Aries tetras get big and have nice colors. A pair or 4 clown loaches will keep the tank clean and maybe some Cory’s. Just some ideas. I know nothing about Africans.

 

BigBeardDaHuZi They are social fish and belong in groups. Minimum recommended aquarium size for 6 or 7 adult Clown Loaches is 6’ (180cm) x 2’ (60cm) x 2’ (60cm) = 180 US gallons / 150 Imperial Gallons or 700 litres. This is kind of accepted among keepers over the last 20 years or so and I'd agree with it. Some of us have slightly smaller tanks because we started keeping them before there was any reliable information about them.

If kept in smaller tanks Clown Loaches will be stunted and that is not considered cool.

Yeah, that is pretty reasonable. I can't get past the 4 foot footprint. There is not enough space on the wall. It means I can't really keep a lot of African Haps that I want either.

It is annoying/ surprising to finally get such a big tank and it is still too small

 

BigBeardDaHuZi Several of the medium sized Loaches give owners a lot of satisfaction from keeping them. It could be a great tank size for them. Could you learn to love them LOL ? Its what I would do.

Quick guide to loaches

 

BigBeardDaHuZi Several of the medium sized Loaches give owners a lot of satisfaction from keeping them. It could be a great tank size for them. Could you learn to love them LOL ? Its what I would do.

Quick guide to loaches

Gonna read that.

 

yoyo are pretty decent and quite a bit smaller than clown loaches. They can get a wee bit long but don't have the body mast. Still i suspect they prefer a longer tank optimally because they are more active than clown loaches. I have clown and yoyo in my 4 foot tank but they are young and i have every intention of upgrading to an 8 or 12 foot tank in the not too far future when i move. The yoyo were suppose to be gold zebra but it turned out they were a mix and the gold zebra all abandoned shipped and jumped out one evening.

Yeah, that is pretty reasonable. I can't get past the 4 foot footprint. There is not enough space on the wall. It means I can't really keep a lot of African Haps that I want either.

It is annoying/ surprising to finally get such a big tank and it is still too small

 

BigBeardDaHuZi At the end of the day what you need to know is are these fish satisfying to keep and I would say yes from my experience and what people have told me.

For more ideas I would keep looking at what are regarded as interesting fish.

Try Monsterfishkeepers for smaller interesting fish they call "mini monsters". Post a question on that forum asking what people would do with your size of tank. You might get some useful ideas.

You best chance of success will be with the fish you like most.

 

One other loach i would recommend are zebra loaches - they grow a max of 5 inches - it took mine about a year to become social. I don't find them as 'interesting' as the yoyo but they do join the yoyo on some of their 'journeys' and mischief.
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I still think red head geo and rams would make an excellent tank but a different direction would be apistogramma or kribs. Apistogramma like harem in most cases so a male with 3 to 5 females. The females will each setup their own areas with the male protecting the larger region. Most of them prefer cooler temps - 75-77 and they tend to occupy the lower regions.

 

I've kept both over the years and both are beautiful Africans can destroy any decor as angelfish leave things alone and you can have other fish with them I keep guppies and GBRs with my angel's and live plants no problems

 

I don't find them as 'interesting' as the yoyo but they do join the yoyo on some of their 'journeys' and mischief.
-
I still think red head geo and rams would make an excellent tank

jake37 Great info thanks.

 

I keep a Berdmorei Tiger Loach as well as a group of Red Tail Loaches in my African community tank.
Both species are very tough durable botias.
They get along with some pretty rough customers such as a Fusco, Livingstoni, Zebra Chalumba, Kenyi, Red Zebra & Afra.

 

One thing to keep in mind with my comment on the zebra is I only have 5 - i will eventually get 5 more - probably after i move. Of the 5 they behave very differently. 3 are very out going and will frequently be out about swimming and 2 are more secretive. For a while i thought maybe 1 had died but then one day all 5 came out together. The yoyo are much more explorative poking their noses in everything. I have 8 of them - ranging from young adult to quite juvi. I prefer the looks of the gold zebra to the yoyo but i've been quite happy with the yoyo behavior - though that might change when the juvi become adults. All the loaches seem to get along (yoyo,zebra, clown and even kuhli). It is quite something to watch the kuhli 'school' with the yoyo though it is not frequent.

jake37 Great info thanks.

 

I keep a Berdmorei Tiger Loach as well as a group of Red Tail Loaches in my African community tank.
Both species are very tough durable botias.
They get along with some pretty rough customers such as a Fusco, Livingstoni, Zebra Chalumba, Kenyi, Red Zebra & Afra.

A201 Don't they annoy the heck out of the cichlids by invading their territories? Loaches seem to have no concept of territory. Don't the Loaches get bitten? What happens?

 

The Red Tails are brutes. Built like linebackers. The Berdmorei is beautiful, but evil. The Mbuna flee their caves when the Berdmorei comes around.
Mostly the Cichlids & Botias get along just fine.

 

I’ve had clown loaches for 6+yrs. Just 2 they started in a 30 and spent 3+yrs there and grew to 4”. Now have them in a 90 for 3yrs both have grown the bigger is now 6” and doing fine. They play with each other and the feather fin catfish.
for me I’d say better in my tank than somebody else 10g. Yes your 140 will be fine with 2 to 4 clown loaches. Again just my opinion someone doing it .

 

Ack that tank looks almost empty. When I think how over populated my tanks are i cringe in comparison. I will say that your clown loaches are growing a lot slower than mine. I have 5 in the 120 and the largest 2 have exceeded 5 inches in the first year. I kind of wish they would stop growing since it will be another year before i can give them a larger home. It might be the type I have (no clue - i just know there are several different type and some grow larger than others) or maybe i over-feed mine - they are chunky things - well 2 of them anyway - one of them is more stream-line. They were small when i got them - under 2 inches I think.

I’ve had clown loaches for 6+yrs. Just 2 they started in a 30 and spent 3+yrs there and grew to 4”. Now have them in a 90 for 3yrs both have grown the bigger is now 6” and doing fine. They play with each other and the feather fin catfish.View attachment 719742for me I’d say better in my tank than somebody else 10g. Yes your 140 will be fine with 2 to 4 clown loaches. Again just my opinion someone doing it .

 

I’ve had clown loaches for 6+yrs. Just 2 they started in a 30 and spent 3+yrs there and grew to 4”. Now have them in a 90 for 3yrs both have grown the bigger is now 6” and doing fine. They play with each other and the feather fin catfish.View attachment 719742for me I’d say better in my tank than somebody else 10g. Yes your 140 will be fine with 2 to 4 clown loaches. Again just my opinion someone doing it .

That's a beautiful tank man

 

A lot depends on if you want a heavily planted tank. I like plants so africans are out. Also i think i would do neither. Why not go for red head geo and rams ?

I've seen geophagus I community tanks - and they are always stunning - can they go with Angel's?

If I go the soft water route, I am definitely going to get some rams or appistos. I've wanted those since I was a kid

 

I keep a Berdmorei Tiger Loach as well as a group of Red Tail Loaches in my African community tank.
Both species are very tough durable botias.
They get along with some pretty rough customers such as a Fusco, Livingstoni, Zebra Chalumba, Kenyi, Red Zebra & Afra.

I've seen a lot of videos of some beautiful african tanks with loaches in them. It is an intriguing idea

 

geo prefer soft waters. I don't see a reason why you can't mix angels or discus in the mix but i would get no more than 2 angels in case they pair off (m/f). You might have to try a few pairs to find ones that are gentle at breeding time or get a pair of same sex angels. You could i suppose try to get 4 males - if they start young they will bicker for a few months but eventually settle into a sane pecking order.

I've seen geophagus I community tanks - and they are always stunning - can they go with Angel's?

If I go the soft water route, I am definitely going to get some rams or appistos. I've wanted those since I was a kid

 

Yes geos are earth eaters and unagressive. They are almost like Cory’s in temperament. Will go with angels. Have heard of geos with discus but you have to find ones that can stay in the warm water.

 

A lot of folks in here are mentioning Africans but only mentioning lake Malawi cichlids, which yes, are hard on plants.
Want a planted tank with Africans? Look into Lake Tanganyika cichlids. They come in a variety of shapes and colors, and they have some really fascinating behaviors to watch.
In a tank this size, I'd say you could hold several species that would set up colonies.
Probably either cyprichromis leptosoma or paracyprichromis nigripinnis for the upper level school.
Then have limestone rock work to bring the pH up and provide a home for either a julidichromis species (I'm partial to marlieri or marksmithi) OR for altolamprologus calvus. You may be able to make both work in a tank this size but I'd say its probably better to stick with one species.
Then for the bottom of the tank, sand and a bunch of big snail shells for shelldwellers. Pick one species of shellie like n. Multifasciatus or n. Similis, they will colony breed in the shells, and move them around to their own desire. Entertaining to watch.
Also, none of these fish are plant destructive. So you can have Africans and plants in the same tank.