2 Angels dead in 24 hours Help please ASAP

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sbrown64

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Hi everyone

I have a community tank (or so I thought!) I purchased 3 angels 10 days ago everything seemed fine, all fish happy. On Saturday morning I noticed one of the angels could not swim, i cought him and put him in a breeding trap to help him, unfortunately within the hour he passed away. At the same time i noticed a baloon molly attacking one of the other angels, constantly pecking him and I thought mollys were friendly!!! So i cought the two remaining angels and put them in the breeding trap to give them a bit of piece. On Sunday i thought lets release them and see what happens, as soon as i did, the siamese fighting fish went straight for one of the angels and hit it hard twice on the side and killed it! From witnessing this i cought the fighter and put him in a brreding trap where he still is. The rest of yesterday the nagel seemed fine, but this morning i noticed the last remaining angel had a cut on the side of his body and the red tail shark and the molly were constantly pecking at him, so the angel has been put in a breeding trap looking quite distressed.

Everywhere you read all these fish are ok for community. I hope someone can explain to me why this happened.

Regards

Stephen Brown
 

Butterfly

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First of all welcome to FishLore! I know it's not polite to answer questions with questions but we need to know a little more about your tank How long has it been set up? size? Water test readings - Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate? a list of all inhabitants of the tank. Thanks
Carol
 

Gunnie

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A community tank doesn't always mean that the fish are friendly. It means that the fish in that tank respect each other enough to live together. African cichlid community tanks contain usually very aggressive fish that tolerate each other well, but if you were to add even cichlids from south or central America to that tank, they would probably be killed rather quickly. You have to learn as much as you can about each fish you put in your tank. Factors like tank size, more than 1 of the same species in the tank, hiding places, etc. are all factors on how well your tankmates get along. Once you answer Butterfly's questions so we can know more about your tank, we will be able to help you sort out what might have gone wrong, and get you on the right track for a happy tank!

Welcome To FishLore!
 
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sbrown64

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Thank you for your reply. The tank was setup approx 6 months ago. it has a 220 litre capacity The readings are as follows:-
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
PH 7.5

The fish in the tank are as follows:-
9 balloon mollys
4 sucking loaches
2 albino rainbow sharks
1 black redtail shark
1 clown loach
5 glowlight tetras
2 powder blue gouramis
2 red robin gouramis
3 silver dollars
2 keyhole cichlids
1 orange spot plec
1 elephant nose
1 black ghost knife
1 siamese fighing fish ( now in breeding trap)
1 injured angel (now in another breeding trap)

All the rest of the fish seem to get on ok but the fighter killed two angels, i also noticed the plec had his tail nipped and the same for one of the silver dollars and also one of the powder blue gouramis.

i also believe that when a fish is injured the other fish then see it has potential food/victom?

I look forward to your reply.

Regards

Stephen Brown
 

Gunnie

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HOLY COW! What a tank full of fish! You should be commended sir for maintaining such a tank of fish!

If you have options on returning your fish for store credit, or have someone else who knows about fish to take some from you, that might be an option. Your combination has a lot of potential for bullying because of the species of fish, and the size of the tank. Your tank appears overstocked, and this can lead to overaggression. You are gonna have to decide what type of tank you want. Do you want aggressive fish or passive fish? You have a tank full of both, and they are in a very cramped setting which makes things worse. Your mollies and angel are probably the most docile fish in the tank. The glo lights might be alright also, and I'm not sure about the keyhole cichlid.

I have no idea about the sucking loaches, but you might be able to find out more information about them on www.loaches.com. It's a great site to learn about all the loaches in the hobby, and a lot of the wild ones too! Sharks usually get quite large and are usually aggressive. Without even taking any other fish into consideration, you should probably only have 1 shark in that tank. Gouramis are tricky and can be bullies. With that size tank, you might be able to get by with more than 2 in your tank, but it's a gamble. I've had the opaline and golden gouramis, and they will stress other fish to death, especially their own kind, and they don't get along well with angels. Silver dollars are great fish. I believe they are mainly vegetarian, and they are nippy. You will probably be very limited on what types of live plants you can have in your tank, because they will probably eat the plants down to the gravel. I don't know what an orange spot pleco looks like, but www.planetcatfish.com is a wonderful site where you will drool for hours at all the different species. You can do some checking there to try and identify your pleco. It's important to know how big it will get. They are also big waste producers, and the bigger the pleco, the more waste in the tank. I'm not real familiar with the elephant nose or the ghost knife fish, but I do believe they are related, and they use a weak electrical charge to locate prey. As these fish get bigger, you will probably notice your smaller fish disappearing from the tank. The ghost knife also hunts usually at night and catches them by surprise. If I'm correct on these fish and the elephant nose also uses an electrical charge, this will probably become a big problem between these 2 fish being in the same tank. I do believe they both also get quite large. The siamese fighting fish sounds very aggressive and probably needs to be one of the fish to be moved out. Is it possible to get another aquarium? Some of these fish could be housed together in a much smaller tank than you already have. Other fish will see a sick or injured fish as prey and will pick at it, so it's good you separated the angel. Another consideration on fish choices is what each species of fish needs to eat to stay healthy. Your variety of fish have different nutritional needs, and I would think it would be very difficult for everyone to get enough to eat, and to be eating what they require to stay healthy.

You have done an excellent job as a new fishkeeper, and this information is not meant to put you down in anyway. I believe you should seriously rethink your gameplan on the the tank though. Decide which fish you like the best and want to keep, and we will help you with making your tank a happy tank. You can also google just about any fish you can think of, and get tons of information. We are here to help you, and will respect whatever you decide, but if we think it's a bad choice, we will post it here and give you a reason why. We love the hobby, and are very eager to help you in whatever you decide. Thanks for becoming a member!
 
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sbrown64

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Thank you for your reply.

Based on all the info i have read and been told by websites etc, a tank of 220 litres can accomodate approx 50-60 fish (told this also by fish shop owners) dependant on also how often you do water changes and maintenance (this is what i have learnt, i think!) Also when i go to fish shops next to the tanks they say either species or community, which says to me the obvious, also before purchasing i always ask the seller and also state what fish i currently have.

I monitor the tank on a daily basis ( by that i mean most evenings sitting there for hours watching them) no fish seem to be aggressive except for the incident i have encountered with the fighter. Before i purchased the angels and the fighter i purchased a biorb to move the tiger barbs into, to safeguard the angels and fighter, i also have two convict cichlids in a seperate tank again because i was told they cannot go into a community tank. If i had my way (to protect all species) i would have a seperate tank for all, but i'm not too sure my wife would like that! (even though she has name every single fish i have!)

to give you an idea of how soft we are, last year we had a snail problem in the garden (eating all the flowers) a garden program stated you should use table salt to get rid of them, we tried this and as soon as we did we could hear the snail squeam, feeling guilty we picked them up and rushed into the house and washed them!

Thank you for your help.

Regards

Stephen Brown
 

Gunnie

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You may have an excellent fish store, but you've got to remember that they are in the business to sell fish, and if your fish don't survive, then you get new ones. I'm not saying that your fish store does this intentionally, but it is very rare that you will find a store that will refuse to sell you a fish because your tank is not the best environment for it. It's pretty much on you to do your research on everything you put in your tank. Once you get that knowledge in your head, you will be amazed at what you hear employees telling customers. It may not be intentional, but it's definately ignorant, and we will ultimately be the ones to suffer the consequences of bad information. That's why the forums are so popular, because we are not trying to sell you anything. We are just trying to help you enjoy the hobby with healthy fish. I also forgot to mention, that when you purchase fish, always figure in the adult size of the fish for your tank. Some folks will buy a fish with the intention of getting a bigger tank later and it never happens.
 
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sbrown64

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Thank you for your reply. Can you please tell me what this means, it was posted underneath your message? Does it mean you have 5 tanks? if so why so few fish in all of them?

100 gal.-2 albino tiger oscars, 1 common pleco
55 gal. - 4 koi angels
29 gal.- Speedy the red eared slider
20 gal. long- 1 buenos aires tetra, 4 yo yo loaches, 1 cory cat
1 10 gal.- Lot of plants and MTS

Regards

Stephen Brown
 

Gunnie

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sbrown64 said:
Thank you for your reply. Can you please tell me what this means, it was posted underneath your message? Does it mean you have 5 tanks? if so why so few fish in all of them?

100 gal.-2 albino tiger oscars, 1 common pleco
55 gal. - 4 koi angels
29 gal.- Speedy the red eared slider
20 gal. long- 1 buenos aires tetra, 4 yo yo loaches, 1 cory cat
1 10 gal.- Lot of plants and MTS

Regards

Stephen Brown
Yep. Those are my tanks. I have had some fish losses through the years, and have not added any more fish to the tanks. My 100 gal. tank is actually probably overstocked. Oscars can get 14-16 inches long each, and my pleco is over a foot long. These 3 fish produce a tremendous amount of waste.

My angel tank was started with 7 angels I got from a friend who was breeding koi angels. Over time, I have lost 1 here and 1 there. My 4 angels left are actually 2 pair and both pair lay eggs, but eat them within 24 hours because of the threat of the other pair in the tank. I am planning on separating them this year by placing 1 of the pair in another 55 gal. and combine my occupants of the 20 gal. long tank.

My 10 gallon had 6 multies, and just recently, they all died one by one. I have no idea what happened, and am a little afraid to put any more fish in that tank. It's full of live plants right now and malaysian trumpet snails.

Speedy needs his own tank. Turtles are filthy creatures, and I must do a 100% water change weekly to keep the tank halfway clean. His tank actually is considered too small for a turtle his size, but I have the filter and basking rock set up in such a way that he actually has quite a bit of swimming room, and appears happy.
 

Butterfly

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Sucking loaches are not really loaches they are algae eaters and can get to be 10 inches.

Clown loaches need to be in groups and can get to be 12 inches or better.
You've got some potentially big boys and girls in that tank which figures out to be approx 59 gallons. As the fish grow closer to their mature sizes the aggression level will rise.
Gunnie has given you some good information.
Carol
 
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sbrown64

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Thank you Butterfly. One thing that i have heard is when you count your fish you do not include bottom feeders (plec, loaches) also when you count how many fish you can have, do you include the depth or just length x width?

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Stephen Brown
 

Butterfly

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You must count all your fish as they add to the bioload just like the others do.
There is a theory that floats around stating you can figure 1 inch of fish per gallon of water but that doesn't quite work because the mass of the fish matters also. The larger the mass the more bioload (feces,urine). So a three inch pleco would excrete more than three 1 inch neons. Am I being confusing?
Carol
 
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sbrown64

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Based on that 220 litres equal 58 gallons, therefore 58 gallons equals 58 inches of fish?

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Stephen Brown
 

Butterfly

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58 inches of fish but remember to count the mass of those fish. More mass- more bioload.
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JMatt1983

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you are correct in that, thats what most people aim for, some other aim for 1 inch of fish for every 2-3 gallons of water, makes the fish happier, with my two tanks for example, i had everything except for my diamond tetras and dwarf gouramis in a 10 gallon tank, there wasn't much swimming or swarming for food, but i have since upgraded to a 20gallon and now my ish practically jump out of the water for food, lot more swimming, and another interesting thing has happened, my pink tetras have actually schooled together with my 3 platies, the tank seems much more active than before.  but gunnie and butterfly are correct, they both, give great advice for the beginners.
 
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