1st signs of ich! heeeeelp! 0.0!

Akari_32

Member
my guppies are showing the 1st signs of ICH! they are rubbing up against the decorations and gravel. I don't actually see it yet, but it just started scratching this morning. what should I do?? I have Wide Spectrum Tonic and I have Jungle Fizz tabs for ich, fish lice, ect. which one would be the best right now?? please help me save my babies T_T I just got three new ones and I would like them all to live D=

p.s.~ I do kno how the ich was introduced... and its all my fault... I have a bamboo plant that was in my previous tank that got infected with ich by some panda corries. I took the plant out and planted it in a pot and some how it ended up out side and got cooked. I brot it in and was messing with the leaves and then fed the fish, with out thinking to wash my hands.
 

w_boughner

Member
dont med rais the temp to 86 f and do gravel vacs daily for two weeks this will get rid of it for sure and its free and nothing agenst meds but every time I used meds in the past ive had fish loss
 
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Akari_32

Member
my heater is preset to 78, so I can't raise the temp T_T how much water should change out?
 

bass master

Member
I wouldnt blame yourself for whatever your fish may have

I don't think that ich, being an aquatic parasite that cannot handle heat, wouldve survived very long outside in the hot dry air, although I'm not really an expert on protozoan parasites

sounds like it is likely ich or velvet, but I would definitely definitely not medicate your tank, especially as you caught it early. The above advice is very good, all I have to add is that if it is velvet, you should also turn off your aquarium lights because velvet actually contains chlorophyll to create energy like a plant does. If you have a planted tank you might still want to leave the lights on though

looks like u ninja'd me , you might want to buy a new heater if that's the case, they can be pretty cheap at some larger pet stores. Also Id do 30% daily water changes, be sure to vacuum as much of the gravel as u can
 
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Akari_32

Member
velvet has a free-floating larval stage, tho right? there's nothing floating aroung in there besides fish and the occational snail. (I could be wrong tho)
 

bass master

Member
ich has a free floating stage too, this is when the parasite is vulnerable. Both are microscopic and so you wouldnt be able to see them with your naked eye, but theyre there. The idea is to kill of the free swimmers while theyre vulnerable. Raising the temperature, turning off the lights, and even adding salt make your tank much less hospitable for the free swimming parasites so they die off before they can reinfect a new host. However I wouldnt add salt.... too many species are sensitive to it and too much can go wrong... raising the temperature and vacuuming should be enough to take care of the disease if you can keep your water parameters in good shape so the fish can recover on their own
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
ich has a free floating stage too, this is when the parasite is vulnerable. Both are microscopic and so you wouldnt be able to see them with your naked eye, but theyre there. The idea is to kill of the free swimmers while theyre vulnerable. Raising the temperature, turning off the lights, and even adding salt make your tank much less hospitable for the free swimming parasites so they die off before they can reinfect a new host. However I wouldnt add salt.... too many species are sensitive to it and too much can go wrong... raising the temperature and vacuuming should be enough to take care of the disease if you can keep your water parameters in good shape so the fish can recover on their own
ooooh. well I can't do much for the temp, as my heater is the preset kind. I don't have anyone in the tank that would mind salt, tho (well, except the snails, but I don't like them much), all I have in there are guppies. should I got up to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons (I'm doing 1/2 teaspoon per gallon right now). could I put the guppies in to a separate tank (with new water) and salt the **** outta the 20 gallon (and do water changes and what-not)?
 

bass master

Member
I wouldnt every "salt the **** outta" a tank actually, again its one of those things that will just do more harm than good. And you're right, snails would probably not like the salt.... I'm pretty sure you can pick up a decent heater for about 15-20 dollars at a decent chain store, but that's your choice I guess. I really do think that heat would be more effective than salt however. Ich is darn near invincible when it is attached to a fish, so the goal is to speed along the ich lifecycle which is accomplished by raising the temperature, then once the ich is free swimming, it dies off from the heat. If you are gonna move them to a new tank, make sure it has a decent filter and that you move some media from your established filter into the new one, but still do not exceed the dosage instructions... Also the "new water" idea probably wouldnt help much, you wouldnt eliminate much of the ich and you would probably stress out your fish more by moving them into new water parameters and such. The only reason I see to moving sick fish is if it is only one or two fish infected and they absolutely need treatment, then you move them to a quarantine tank with a good gilter and established filter media.

To summarize, I would buy a new heater, and keep up the daily vacuuming/water changes
 

AlyeskaGirl

Member
I suggest you get a new heater. You not being able to raise the temp isn't a good thing when trying to get rid of ICH. I use the Marineland Stealth Pro. It's a great heater.

Good luck!
 
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Akari_32

Member
not really salt the **** out of it, but go up to the next dose (1TBS/5 glallons) lol

well, I was looking at other heaters, but it was the only one in the size range I needed that I liked, and I don't recall ever seeing an adjustable one at all (Petco, PetSmart and WalMart). I ended up paying about $20 for it. I ges I could move my betta in to the 10 gallon and give him the heater and buy a new one for the 20 gallon, because I'm getting payed for working with my mom for 2 days last week (I'm just gunna say that putting in acrylic windows isn't fun. neither is sunburn. but it pays $10 an hour!).... -plotting- if I do do that, how should I de-ich the heater?
 

bass master

Member
Ich is almost always present in the aquarium, it just isn't a problem until one of your fish's immune system becomes compromised for some reason, so you shouldnt have to worry about de-iching your heater. If you're moving all of your fish to the smaller tank, move the heater to. The heater should be able to raise the temp a little bit high because its heating a smaller volume of water, I would fill the smaller tank with some of your tank water too, that way the fish won't be too shocked when you move them. Again, buying a new heater would be a much better way to help out your little fish rather than moving them.

Also I believe I picked up a "hydor theo" 100w for about $15 at my local petsmart. Its fully adjustable, submersible, and keeps my 20 gallon wherever I need the temp to be.
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
Ich is almost always present in the aquarium, it just isn't a problem until one of your fish's immune system becomes compromised for some reason, so you shouldnt have to worry about de-iching your heater. If you're moving all of your fish to the smaller tank, move the heater to. The heater should be able to raise the temp a little bit high because its heating a smaller volume of water, I would fill the smaller tank with some of your tank water too, that way the fish won't be too shocked when you move them. Again, buying a new heater would be a much better way to help out your little fish rather than moving them.

Also I believe I picked up a "hydor theo" 100w for about $15 at my local petsmart. Its fully adjustable, submersible, and keeps my 20 gallon wherever I need the temp to be.
hmmmm.... those heaters seen to run at $25 here... ****. doesn't look like I'll get one of those (unless its the cheapest, but even then, I may not be able to...).

I changed out 3 gallons of water today and kept the lights out all day except for feeding and changing the water. I'll do an other change on sunday, and suck out stuff from the gravel while I'm at it. and I washed my hands before I handled the new water (and before I fed Cornelious). anything else?

EDIT~ also, should I put the syphon and water bucket in the dishwasher on the sanitize setting (no soap, just really, really hot water), or would that ruin the syphon, or just not help at all?
 

bass master

Member
I wouldnt wash any of that, you would probably just warp the plastic with the hot water.... and as I said the parasites probably won't live out of water. The disease is probably a result of excess stress or poor water conditions, what are your water parameters?
 

w_boughner

Member
water changes arnt as important as vacuming the gravel. when the ich goes into the cyst stage they multiply in the gravel and that's when you want to remove them before they hatch to the free floating stage
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
I wouldnt wash any of that, you would probably just warp the plastic with the hot water.... and as I said the parasites probably won't live out of water. The disease is probably a result of excess stress or poor water conditions, what are your water parameters?
honestly, I don't kno. I don't have a test kit, and my parents probly won't let me buy one, tho I will try next time I get them to go to the pet store (which isn't often.... -_-).

anyway, I was asking because there are little white dots on the cylider part of the syphon, tho it could just be stuff from the last water change, but I just figured i'd ask.
 

bass master

Member
the white dots are probably just mineral residue left behind when the water evaporated, very unlikely to be ich. Also a test kit is very very important if you want to keep your fish healthy, without it you have no idea what's going on inside your tank and it could be full of deadly chemicals like ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. Even if all you can get is a cheap strip test, any test is better than no test IMO, although the API master kit is the most recommended test kit on this site.

Also how often do you change your water?
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
the white dots are probably just mineral residue left behind when the water evaporated, very unlikely to be ich. Also a test kit is very very important if you want to keep your fish healthy, without it you have no idea what's going on inside your tank and it could be full of deadly chemicals like ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. Even if all you can get is a cheap strip test, any test is better than no test IMO, although the API master kit is the most recommended test kit on this site.

Also how often do you change your water?
dont worry, I don't need tellin', its my parents that need tellin' > I'm luck to even have a heater D= altho, the last time I had PetSmart check my water, it was perfect (I'm not sure exactly what the lady ment by "perfect," but ok).

and I try to change the water every week, but if I cant, than every 2 weeks (tho now its not way over stocked, so I won't be as worried if I miss a week [but not until the current problem is fixed. I'll be doing it every other day at the moment, unless u suggest other wise])
 

bass master

Member
I generally don't trust a word of what the people tell me at the pet store, they might consider 50 nitrate to be "good" regardless of what species they hear you're keeping.... I know my strips come with a chart that has "safe" "stress" and "unsafe" ranges and I personally don't agree with any of them, but most pet store employees would probably just check to see if they fell into the designated ranges... If you do it weekly or at least bi-weekly I think your levels should be acceptable, definitely keep up the vacuuming up daily if you can, every other day is acceptable though, best of luck to your fish
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
I generally don't trust a word of what the people tell me at the pet store, they might consider 50 nitrate to be "good" regardless of what species they hear you're keeping.... I know my strips come with a chart that has "safe" "stress" and "unsafe" ranges and I personally don't agree with any of them, but most pet store employees would probably just check to see if they fell into the designated ranges... If you do it weekly or at least bi-weekly I think your levels should be acceptable, definitely keep up the vacuuming up daily if you can, every other day is acceptable though, best of luck to your fish
I just got done suckin' up **** out of the gravel a little bit ago. I was surprized to see how much I missed tuesday ^_^'> I did just about 40% (I got about 4 1/2 gallons out) because I just couldnt leave all that gunk down there.... then I dosed it with WST, as told by my mom -sigh- she doesn't listen sometimes, but whatever. just a bit of help I ges lol

I put the water bucket and syphon out side to dry in the sun and get un-ich-ified and wahsed my hands befor even going near the new water. I haven't seen anyone scratching today (tho I probly just cursed myself... lol) so with any lick, its almost over!
 

bass master

Member
whats in wst? is it a malachite formalin mix? I definitely wouldnt have put this in with your fish :/ especially because they just got it... if it was a reoccuring case where temp/gravel vacuuming failed multiple times I would consider it.... but really I would stop dosing it... try to convince your mom that your only supposed to add one dosing or something... Also ich doesn't really go away so quickly usually, maybe the flicking was something else? or maybe theyre still infected, either way, keep doin what your doin for the next four days as long you continue to see no signs of infection (minus the WST). Best of luck
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
whats in wst? is it a malachite formalin mix? I definitely wouldnt have put this in with your fish :/ especially because they just got it... if it was a reoccuring case where temp/gravel vacuuming failed multiple times I would consider it.... but really I would stop dosing it... try to convince your mom that your only supposed to add one dosing or something... Also ich doesn't really go away so quickly usually, maybe the flicking was something else? or maybe theyre still infected, either way, keep doin what your doin for the next four days as long you continue to see no signs of infection (minus the WST). Best of luck
WST=Wide Specturm Tonic. it has Sulfas (methazine, diazine, thinazole,malachite green, magneium sulfate, cupric sulfate, EDTA) its kinda like those sinus pills for human that help with headaches, stuffy nose and chest congestion, but its for all the creepy-crawlies that fish can get and for things like fin rot and collapsed fins. its more of a preventative that's supposed to be used at every water change, but it can be used to treat mild cases. in short, its a fish disese multitasker.

it seems to be working so far tho! I saw a bit of white on Amorak's tail (that's the older female, for those of u how kept up with that lol it's the Inuit name for the Wolf Spirit. She [I think its a she lol, the movie I learned it from was annoying so I didnt watch much of it] was asked to help with the caribou population because it had gotten weak and sick because the humans only hunted the big, strong, healthy ones [as we always seem to do.... -_-]) this morning, but its now gone and no ones scratchin', so I think we're good! whoo! I'm still abit worried about Elena tho, because she likes to hang out at the bottom and eat stuff out of the gravel (its so funny when she goes completely vertical trying to get something really good outta there XD), but she seems alright =D

I did buy some ich spesiffic medication tho, just in case the WST doesn't work (and to have it around, also, just in case ^_^'>). I got some Ich Clear by Jungle (I have Parasite clear already). I'll use it tomorrow if I see any thing susspisious in there, but I hope I won't need it.
 

bass master

Member
what I meant by "whats in it" was what type of chemicals it had in it, "wide spectrum tonic" can mean a variety of things in my experience. Good to know things are improving, like I said just keep things up for another few days and you should be in the clear
 
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Akari_32

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
what I meant by "whats in it" was what type of chemicals it had in it, "wide spectrum tonic" can mean a variety of things in my experience. Good to know things are improving, like I said just keep things up for another few days and you should be in the clear
lol sorry, I got a bit carried away ^_^'> I put the carbon filter back in at 2:00 (so an hour ago) and I put the WST in at about 10:00pm yesterday, so they had a good while to soak it up and hopefully its all over now. i've been keeping the lights off unless I'm feeding them, or changeing water, and washing hands after being in the tank and before feeding my betta (who seems to avoiding it, so he should ok), and handling new water. I put the syphon and water bucket out to dry last night after a water change and woke up to a huuuuuge storm, so so much for that lol I'll have to take a hose to them because they were sitting right under the awning of the roof and got all the runoff from it... -sigh-
 
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Akari_32

Member
so I put that Ich Clear stuff in. I did what the directions said and put in a 1/2 dose (so I did it for 10 gallons) because I have small fish. when should I put the carbon filter back in? or should I just contuinue to do water changes and not replace the dose?
 

bass master

Member
as I said you shouldnt have to add anything to your water if you're using salt and heat already.... The meds will almost definitely do more harm than good IMO. Also the bottle should cover most of the questions you just asked, but again, you should stop medicating, do a 40% water change and put the carbon back in. Also if you took the whole filter cartridge out, your risking going into a minI cycle which will introduce more ammonia and will stress your fish even more. You should put the filter back in even though it will soak up some of the meds, but like I said, that's more of a good thing.

One thing you should understand about ich. Once it is encysted on your fish, no medication will treat it, If you were turning to the medication as a quick fix (even though quick fixes are almost never a good idea in the long run), I'm sorry but it would take just as long for the ich to disappear with the meds as it would without it. Heat will make the cyst complete its life cycle quicker and drop off your fish. Then your vacuuming and heat should kill off the free swimming ich before it can attach to a fish again. No need for medications, I really can't stress that enough
 

w_boughner

Member
bassmaster2010 said:
as I said you shouldnt have to add anything to your water if you're using salt and heat already.... The meds will almost definitely do more harm than good IMO. Also the bottle should cover most of the questions you just asked, but again, you should stop medicating, do a 40% water change and put the carbon back in. Also if you took the whole filter cartridge out, your risking going into a minI cycle which will introduce more ammonia and will stress your fish even more. You should put the filter back in even though it will soak up some of the meds, but like I said, that's more of a good thing.

One thing you should understand about ich. Once it is encysted on your fish, no medication will treat it, If you were turning to the medication as a quick fix (even though quick fixes are almost never a good idea in the long run), I'm sorry but it would take just as long for the ich to disappear with the meds as it would without it. Heat will make the cyst complete its life cycle quicker and drop off your fish. Then your vacuuming and heat should kill off the free swimming ich before it can attach to a fish again. No need for medications, I really can't stress that enough
I agree
 
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Akari_32

Member
well I kinda can't help what my mom tells me to do ^_^' anyway, I put the filter back in anyway becasue Elena was freeking out about the medication being in there and pushing up against the glass trying to get away from it (tho the other fish were playing in the bubbles -sigh- lol). the ich never made its way on to the fish, as far as I could tell, tho. I think we're done with this, but I'll do another water change thursday and keep an eye on them for a few more days. thanks for all ur help guys! I tried to do what u said, but u kno how parents are..... anyway, thanks again! <3
 

bass master

Member
You should probably tell your mom what all you have been told on this message board, maybe even show her the posts. Theres a reason the fish was freaking out, malachite/formalin is a very toxic mix for fish and fish can quickly die from even the tiniest overdose... I speak from experience here... If you never noticed any white spots on your fish, it likely wasn't ich. If it was ich and "never made it on to the fish" they probably wouldnt have been flashing at all. It was probably something else stressing out your fish such as toxins in the water, another reason you should get at least some kind of test kit.

Hopefully all of your fish are cured from whatever they had, just keep an eye on them the next few days. Best of luck
 
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Akari_32

Member
I will (watch them and [try] to get a test kit)! thanks a lot XD
 
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Akari_32

Member
I lost the 1st victI'm of ich today... I found Howl Jr at the bottom of the tank (upside down with his head in the gravle) and all his fins nibbled off... I was worried about him for th past fews days because he wasn't getting "up and going" as fast in the mornings, but I never really put two and two together and thot it was from the ich (tho it might not be, he was kinda old... at least a year, tho I kno he had a few months tacked on to that). I'm gunna go a a water change tomorrow ( I would have today, but i've been at sea world all day. imagine that. surrounded by fish all day and come home to your favorite dead! T_T). so 1st thing tomorro, a water change! hopefully I'll still have every one else in the morning (I'm worried about Elena too)
 

bass master

Member
IMO if that fish wasn't absolutely peppered with little white dots, it probably wasn't ich, it was the treatment... those chemicals stress fish quite a bit, some of your older fish probably won't be able to handle it which is why you should stop the treatment immediately and go with the natural treatments like I have been telling you
 
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Akari_32

Member
I haven't done anything since Elena freaked out about the Ich Clear. i've just been water changes every day (or every other day if don't have the time). there was no white on him as far as I could tell, but he was a very light fish, so its hard to tell. I never saw him itching tho. I think he was just old. he was from the 1st drop I ever had, way back when, when I got guppies to feed my ADFs the fry. he was atleast 1 and few months old and so inbred it wasn't even funny XD on the other hand, I still have everyone! and Damon, Elena and Amorak are looking better every day!

and moving on, only Elena is scratching and I have a few new additions! one of Howl Jr II's sisters is dropping fry. I found 3 this morning, then after not being able to find them for a while, I saw little Howl Jr II eating one -_- I'll see how many are still alive 2moro when I clean do a water change again.
 
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