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August 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Entering SW
Hi fishlorians!
After a lot of though, I decided I am going SW. I intend to cycle a marine 10gal tank for some native small inverts like Virgin Nerite Snails, Hermit crabs and small shrimps. I'll go with fish in SW#2.
I intend to use live rock collected by me (going out tomorrow or the day after tomorrow), so I will need help as for how much live rock to look for, how transport it safely, how to cure it and, of course how to seed it properly.
Do I follow the same steps of fishless cycle with ammonia solution I use in FW/Brackish?
Should I cure the live rock first or can I cure it as I cycle?
Amount of live rock needed? Is it Ok if I place some in a 5.5gal refugium? I will certainly need some in the display tank for the sake of the inverts.
Lights: Would 80W from four 24" 20W T-8 suffice? Are Marine Lights from Hagen good/fair for this? I ask this particular question because I don't recommend Flora-Glo at 2,800K at all for FW planted (although it is marketed for that purpose) but I love the Power-Glo at 18,000K.
Substrate: Is it OK to use natural beach sand? (I can get some good sand down here) or should I get commercially packed marine substrate or crushed corals instead?
Protein skimmer: Is it needed for inverts?
Temperature: Tank temp in this particular tank as FW is usually within the 77 82F (25-28C), is that a safe range for SW?
Thank you
Pepetj
Santo Domingo | 
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August 3rd, 2009
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| | Moderator
| http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm
Hello Pepetj...check out the nitrogen cycle page and scroll down to option #5 cycling with live rock. I don't have salt experience myself but I'm sure you'll get more help soon. Keep us updated and hope you can share some pictures with us
Ken | |
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August 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| hey congrats on the saltwater venture,
as for cycling the live rock cycles the tank for you so no ammonia solution is needed, the lighting sounds fine, i like to use live sand as it adds to your benificial bacteria and helps a little with cycling,
temp should be around 78F, salinity should be between1.022 to 1.025 for fish and the upper end closer to 1.025 for inverts. pH should be around 8.3 and using a ph stabalizer is best. with inverts they need iodine and calcium supplements so get some purple up and add to the water each time you do a water change.
you could add some fish to a 10 gallon, a bangii cardinal and a royal gramma or a couple of occelaris clowns.
as for inverts : emerald crabs are cool, so are boxer shrimp
The key advice for saltwater aquarium success is water quality so i strongly suggest using a large filter on your tank like a 200gph, sounds like overkill, but it really helps with water quality, a small power head is a plus also
as for the protein skimmer, it really isnt needed with inverts or even with this small a tank as long as you do regular water changes...but if you do decide later on to buy one, get a quality protein skimmer, not a cheap one. It is worth the extra money for a good skimmer such as an aqua c remora
Be sure and watch the temp of your 10g, as temp fluctuates more in smaller tanks
hope this has helped and best of luck | |
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August 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| You can cure the LR in your tank and cycle it that way. My husband and I got cured rock and cycled with a raw shrimp anyway just to be sure our rock was ready to convert waste. With cured rock, it took just over a week. Live sand is optional. Plain aragonite sand will save you money and becomes live pretty quickly once you get it in the tank with live rock. pH adjusters are not needed and might do more harm than good. Your salt mix will adjust the pH on its own, and eventually the tank will stabilize and the pH will fluctuate much less IME. I've kept reef tanks ranging from 2.5 gallons to 50 gallons and have never dosed anything. A good rule of thumb is to never dose anything that you aren't testing for. With the lighting that you have, it is likely that you'll be limited to easy soft corals, so you shouldn't need to dose anything anyway. Your regular water changes will replenish trace elements for you. When I kept my nanos I did weekly water changes and didn't use a skimmer. Frequent water changes and sensible stocking will eliminate the need in a small tank. I would strongly recommend the use of RO/DI water for water changes and top offs. It will help to prevent algae issues as compared to tap water.
I noticed that you are going to be collecting LR. I don't know anything about laws regarding collection where you are, but please be sure that it is legal for you to collect from the wild. Good luck!  | |
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August 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Not a single LFS has live rock for sale so I have no option than collecting it from the ocean. I am driving tomorrow morning to a non-protected but likely non-polluted beach/coastal area with the intention of carefully collecting 20lbs of live rock. Not like I have to get a permit for it as long as I don't abuse the environment... I live in the Third World so that's the way it is.
I am bringing a water cooler (or two) with me to place the pieces of rock in sea water with a couple of battery operated airpumps. I don't mind the time it takes to cycle as long as I get some certainty of stability in water parameters.
I am experiencing the same chills as I did as FW newby.
I'm working on the light assembly so it's not yet installed.
Thanks for your help.
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
As for tank temp reaching low 80s... should I be concerned? | |
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August 4th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| really harpula,
my water has a natural ph of 7.5, I use oceanic marine salt and still must add marine buffer to get my ph at 8.3.. I do have calcium and iodine in my salt mix
Questions: is this enough to maintain adequate levels in a tank with various inverts
my boxer shrimp molted on schedule every month almost to the day when using purple up, not as predictable before i started the replacement, and he reached a nice size fairly quickly
also doesnt water calcium and iodine vary from location to location, which is why some water is soft and some is hard...the dissolved elements ,
so I use purple up in small amounts to help replenish what the inverts need : ie snails and calcium for their shells and shrimp and iodine for helping them molt
I completely agree about not adding chemicals unless absolutely necessary, but my readings have suggested that supplementing these depleated minerals can be helpful to an aquarium especially a newly started reef setup ( pg 111-112 Conscentious marine aquarist by robert fenner) which is why i add iodine/calcium to my tank in small portions by way of purple up
I would love to hear of your experience and advice as i am always interested in learning something new | |
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August 4th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Like I mentioned, I would not dose anything I can't test for. I haven't needed to dose anything in any reef setup I've had (2.5, 5.5, 8, 20, or the 50). We use RO/DI water and the Oceanic salt kept our pH at 8.2... how long are you mixing the water before you add it to the tank? Is it tap water? If so, I'd really suggest switching to RO/DI. Our RO water has 0 TDS (checked with a TDS meter) and the salt mix takes care of all the trace elements.
Our inverts include a peppermint shrimp, 3 sexy shrimp, an emerald crab, and a pistol shrimp and we haven't had the need to dose still. They are all doing well and growing. The people I see that really need to dose are the folks that have a ton of SPS corals that use a bunch of calcium and other trace elements.
As far as the boxer crab molting regularly, be cautious about causation vs. correlation with the Purple Up... it could be that the regular molts are related to the tank stabilizing, the crab settling in after a bit, better water quality, or some other reason. Just a thought. If it's working for you then no reason to change it, but I would suggest getting a test kit for anything you choose to dose. | |
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August 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| My tank has been up for about 9 month now and is much more stable than early on. I do use tap water and not RO which may affect my ph as tap can carry quite a bit in additon to chlorine and chloramine, and my tank is a fish only, no reef yet, but would love to try one later after more experience
thanks you have given me several things to think about
have a good day | |
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August 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Updating:
I got two 10lbs bags of Nature's Ocean Live Aragonite Reef Sand. I stored them till I'm done with the set up. I got a small (I guess 6gal) tank to use as sump and a small submersible 600LPH (158GPH) water pump with a 1.0m (3' 3") head.
I also got the API Reef Master Test Kit (I got plenty saltwater pH reagent and Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate liquid reagents for freshwater and saltwater are exactly the same). So I'll learn how to measure for Calcium and Phosphates.
I have pocket meters for Saltwater Nitrates, pH, and TDS.
I believe I will use a DIY light assembly built with rain gutter following a design from about.com and use metallic conduit tube as wall mounted stand to hold the lamp assemblies. Rethinking the whole thing I believe I will use six instead of four F20T8 (three Marine Glo plus three Power Glo).
Once the tank is running with its "basics" (sump filtration system, lights, protein skimmer, UV Sterilizer), I will place the aragonite sand, and learn how to monitor saltwater water parameters; for a few days I will dose with ammonia solution aiming at 2-3ppm and see how the system behaves.
The Calcium issue is baffling me. How do you go about it?
I expect to introduce my wild caught live rock once I make sure I am within expected range for salinity, pH, calcium and alkalinity. I might contact a friend with a boat to do that or end up hiring local fishermen/divers.
This is hard work but fun! Newby chills!
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
Last edited by pepetj; August 6th, 2009 at 12:01 AM.
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August 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| man im excited for you congrats | |
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August 7th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Everyone has their own methods of keeping SW and as a nubee to the hobby I have found it most beneficial to find one successful SW keeper to listen to. I was getting sooo many mixed messages that I actually got scared to even start a SW.
My tank has been set up for almost 3 months. All my water perimeters have been right on! No spikes at all. I was having issues with green algae, until it was reccommend I switch over to RO/DI water. Using RO/DI water has saved me a lot of issues when it comes to phosphates/chlorine and not having to using anything to remove them. My LR is already purple up and I already have my first signs of coralline algae, without adding anything again. My ph is and has been at 8.4 since I started lil nano. My calicum is at a steady 400, again nothing added. It's been my experience that by using RO/DI water it has allowed all the natural substances from LR/Substrate and salt mixes to do what they were made to do. After only 9/10 weeks I am keeping soft corals, CUC and fishes with much success. My peppermint shrimp having only had her for 3 weeks this coming Sunday has shed twice, leading me to believe my tank is healthy. Anyways what I'm trying to say is that I owe a lot of my success by finding and listening to one successful experienced person. I'm not saying that there's just one, pick and choose cause there's many. IMO, find one and stay with em. You wont be sorry.
Everyone has their own methods of keeping SW, now I have mine 
Good luck and have fun, it's ohhhhh sooooo worth it. | |
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August 9th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Update: I realized I am "behind schedule" as far as looking for live rock.
I've been reading a lot and actually I am testing for spills and working around the way the sump works.
I took the tank out of it final destination and placed it in the living room (with the "only a temporal testing" emphasis/compromise with my wife) where it is easier for me to have access to the whole thing. Glad I did this since I just experienced my first R/O water flooding attempt (like 1 gallon in the floor).
Its definite location leaves me no room for errors (specially spilling errors). Since I am making decisions on water flow input/output placement for aesthetics and practical reasons, I'm using R/O water only. I have a bucket with saltwater mixed in being aerated (and I need to get some new containers).
I still have no clear idea for the sump/refugium design. I am considering the following easy set-up, please comment on it for improvement or drawbacks.
Pepetj
Santo Domingo | |
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August 13th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Update: I decided to drill my tank. I spent two hours driving around but finally got the drill bits I need.
I'm still working on the details of required height difference in the glass baffles.
As I am working on the sump set up this is what I have in mind so far:
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
Last edited by pepetj; August 13th, 2009 at 07:12 PM.
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August 15th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Update: I had the glass divisions for the sump (wet/dry-refugium-skimmer-bubble trap-return chamber) cut today at a glass shop. I just finished applying silicone to three of them.
I also decided to go with a larger tank. I figured that using 4" of substrate would leave me a volume of 6 gal of water in the 10gal tank so... Still using the 10gal footprint (20"Lx10XW) but 24" height. I am using 5/16" thick glass for the bottom, where the two holes (overflow output and pump return) will be drilled tomorrow. I might use 3/16" for the lateral walls.
I'll be using C- PVC inside the tank and PVC outside of it. Got a 3/4" female fitting C-PVC, threaded, that fits nicely into the 3/4" PVC bulkhead. Two O-rings to seal tight, two ball valves to fine tune flow as well as two un-screwable 3/4" straight unions for PVC to ease removal of sump if needed be.
If things go smoothly -it's OK if they don't,I have no rush as I enjoy this part very much- I might be putting water on them by Tuesday.
The lighting will be T-8 20W 24" long (6 or 8 lamps) since only the Marine Glo T-5 at 22W 22" long is locally available. Still figuring out how to build the over the tank lamp assembly (I'm leaving this tank open).
So it should look something like this:
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
Last edited by pepetj; August 15th, 2009 at 01:35 AM.
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August 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Hi I got the 20gal built in a 10gal frame. It has two holes drilled in the bottom glass. The bottom glass is 5/16" thick and the walls are 1/4" thick. All glass is non-tempered.
Since I am using a stand designed to hold a 10gal tank, I am being careful that it will be able to sustain the added load. I've been keeping a 29gal bow tall tank in a stand designed for 20gal tank since June 2008.
As you can see in the picture I am playing around with plumbing (3/4"PVC and 3/4" C-PVC) to figure out the best way to hide it from sight. I expect to use 4" of sand (Bio-Active Live Aragonite Reef Sand is available locally).
Any input is appreciated.
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
Last edited by pepetj; August 19th, 2009 at 12:06 AM.
Reason: Adding sketch of drilled bottom glass | |
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August 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Here's what I think.......  | |
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August 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Got the tank running and began fishless cycling Sunday,
August 23rd, around 9:30PM.
Reading on Deep Sand Bed... Designed the lamp assembly that will go hanging on the open top, and working with a design to place three F15T8 lamps in the rear wall with indirect lighting to simulate dawn/dusk (this I will post in the DIY sub-forum).
Pepetj
Santo Domingo
Last edited by pepetj; August 26th, 2009 at 12:09 AM.
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August 29th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| wow looks great | |
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