Crazed

Hi all! I've recently become interested in marine aquariums. This site has really been helpful to me, and it inspired me to purchase a couple books which I'm currently reading (the new marine aquarium and The conscientious marine aquarist). I've never personally had anything bigger than a goldfish or a betta, but my parents used to maintain a freshwater tank, and we currently have a modest goldfish pond, so I'm not totally clueless about aquatic life (or so I'd like to think! )

I'm just about to graduate high school and I'm really interested in this as a hobby. I haven't decided many specifics - I've just begun to read the books above - so I don't yet know what size tank I'm going to get or what creatures I'll be keeping. I'd like to keep my tank in my room, so it probably won't be over 40 gallons.

I have a couple questions I haven't yet found the answers to, and I'd be really grateful if you could help me out.

Question #1: How hard is it to transport a tank? For example, say I wanted to get a freshwater tank down the road and move the saltwater tank to a different spot in the house. Or, in a more complex scenario where I'd have to literally disassemble the tank, if I'm moving out of the house. Or, say I want to upgrade to a larger tank but want to keep my existing fish. How would you accomplish these things?

Question #2: I'm very much interested in keeping corals, but I accept I'm a novice and it would be irresponsible to try to keep these animals until I'm more experienced. Can I, one day, add coral to an existing FOWLR setup (assuming I buy all the additional necessary equipment and lights), or would I need a new setup totally? Would that mess with the ecosystem the creatures living there already have?

Question #3: If I have a FOWLR setup - without high intensity lighting - are there any certain types of coral I could keep? My one friend is also getting into the hobby and says he's going to keep soft coral, yet I'm fairly certain he's not making what you would say is a reef tank. Has he not done his research, or are there certain types of coral that you can keep without going full-out reef tank setup?

Question #4: I'm aware that in a FOWLR setup you can keep *some* invertebrates. What kinds can you keep, and how many? What about anemones?

Question #5: This question isn't that important, but I'm kind of an energy police type of guy. Any tips on energy efficiency?

Sorry for all the questions; hopefully you can help me out. Thank you so much!

au01st

1. Depends on your setup. They makes some all-in-one setusp like the nano cube or aquapod that get around 20-30 gallons and may be just what you're looking for. They would be relatively easy to move, drain the water, take out the rock, move it, replace rock, replace half old water and half new water (might as well do a water change, right?).

2. Many people start with FOWLR setups and graduate to REEF setups. It's really just a matter of changing the lighting, adding a skimmer, and monitoring more parameters (calcium, carbonate hardness, and magnesium). Also, most of the all-in-one models listed earlier have lighting that is sufficient for low light corals (mushrooms, xenia, etc) but can also be upgraded with 150watt metal halide or T5 fixtures that would support all corals.

3. Many soft corals can be kept with relatively low lighting. Mushrooms, zoanthids, green star polyps, palythoas, different species of xenia. The main thing is to find corals you like, then research their lighting needs and decide if you have sufficient light to keep them. (using the watts per gallon rule is not recommended as different light types produce different intensity lighting).

4. Depends on what kind of fish. Inverts like shrimp, snails, and crabs are not dependant on lighting for survival. The only thing keeping you from putting inverts into a FOWLR tank is if you have a fish, like a trigger fish, that would eat them.

5. You gotta pay to play. The biggest draws in power come from the heater and lights (pumps are relatively low, even the ones in my 75G are only 8 watts). On your power bill you should be able to see the price of energy. Just look at the setup you're considering and your light timing. A 250watt MH lamp on for 8 hours a day will mean 2kw/hr of energy for the lighting alone. Figure out your pumps and everything and how long it will all run, and you should be able to come up with a rough estimate of the cost of maintaining the tank. I think I figured mine out one time and it wasn't more than $30 a month.

Crazed

Mm, that makes sense. What happens if you still have fish? Will you have to find someone else with a tank to take them/get another tank for where you're departing and buy new fish for the new location, or is there any way to transport them safely over longer distances?

Ah, awesome, that's great news. I'm probably not going to go with an nano cube setup, but I'll keep it in mind.

I'm really happy to hear that! Are all hard corals ones that require MH lights, or are there also some that can thrive in less intense conditions?

Thanks for the info. I'm definitely interested in getting some shrimp or snails to help out in garbage disposal, but I'll make sure to make sure they'll place nice with everyone.

That's not bad at all. I'm hoping the heaters won't run a whole lot, since my house's ambient temperature is generally stable throughout the year. I don't mind shelling out the cost, but I always rest easier knowing that I did everything possible to run as efficiently as possible.


Oh, one other question that might be a little strange. How loud about is the sound of the filters and pumps running (saying I have a skimmer, two jets, and perhaps a power filter)? Since I'm planning to have this in my room, I'd be fine hearing some sound when I sleep, but it won't be annoying, will it?

Thanks for helping me out. Sorry for loading you up with more questions. Also, I'm sure you hear this all the time, but the pictures of your tanks look beautiful, especially the clownfish one!

au01st

No problem, happy to help.

How long of a distance? Remember there are companies that sell fish online then ship them overnight, so fish can be in bags for many many hours no problem if the temperature is maintained (transport them in a cooler or something). Or you can trade them in at your local fish store for credit, post them on craigslist, give them away, etc. There are many options available.

Metal Halide lighting is not a requirement until you start having tank depths greater than 24". Until that point, a nicely setup T5 fixture will do the just just fine. If you are right at 24", overdriving the bulbs can give you that extra punch necessary. The main thing with T5 bulbs is to look for a setup with individually contoured reflectors, and you'll likely want to upgrade the bulbs from the stock ones.

It depends on if you have a cabinet or open stand, and if you have a sump. My setup is in my dining area next to the living room. I can hear the fans in the light fixture from the couch, and they're certainly louder than I'd want in my bedroom, however they are the loudest thing. The pumps in the water should be silent when running. If you have a skimmer, you'll have no need for the power filter, but the noise will depend on the skimmer brand and how it's setup. Mine is inside my cabinet and I can't hear it, but if it was "hang on back" then it'd probably be louder than I want as well. If you do add a sump, you can insulate the inside of the stand and you shouldn't be able to hear anything from down there.

Crazed

Thank you so much for your help. I'm going to be taking an exploratory visit to my local store and take a look at things. I'm sure I'll have some more questions down the road.

Crazed

I went to my local store today and saw my first saltwater fish tanks. Absolutely incredible. I didn't learn a whole lot more than I learned from my reading - aside from seeing some lovely corals being kept with simple power compacts, which delighted me.

I ran a few of the specs I've been thinking about to one of the salespeople and one of these were the powerheads. I had planned, for a 55 gallon tank, to get two powerheads for the main tank, each with 175-200 GPH, for a combined total of 350-400 gph. (one of the models I was looking at was, for example, the Penguin 660, rated at 175 gph) However, he seemed shocked by this, and suggested immediately that I get the more expensive Hydor Koralia brand powerheads, each with a turnover of about 800 gph. Is this really necessary for a fish and invert tank with some soft corals? It's a pretty big price difference, and I don't mind paying for quality and a good-running tank, but it seemed like overkill to me... 1600 gph would turn over my tank almost 30 times in one hour! His rationale for this was that powerheads were rated higher than they should be for their movement capacity, or that they were rated for freshwater and not the heavier salt water, so you had to compensate by getting much higher rated heads... is there any truth in this? These were the same models being used in their advanced reef tanks, and I'm not going to be having anything that extensive.


And while I'm asking questions, I narrowed down in my head that I wanted to get a protein skimmer (looking at Seaclone Protein Skimmer 100) and a canister (H.O.T. Magnum canister filter, rated 55 gallons) that I would run occasionally to clean up the water with some activated carbon, and when needed, move it into my quarantine tank; does that sound alright, as long as I make sure to clean the canister before moving it back to my main tank? Do I need more extensive biological filtering in the quarantine tank?

So, to summarize the equipment I'm checking out at the moment, here is what I'm currently considering (by no means complete, I haven't decided on exact heaters, lighting, or the amount of live rock I'll be getting yet):

55 gallon glass tank (unfortunately, the shop does not offer acrylic in anything that suits me)
Seaclone Protein Skimmer 100, 100 gallon maximum capacity, venturi
H.O.T. Magnum Canister Filter, rated 55 gallons, for periodic use with activated carbon, or in quarantine tank
Two Penguin 660 powerheads rated at 175 gal/hr each, or one of the Koralia models, depending on the responses to my above questions... I'll probably get the same or lesser units for my quarantine tank/saltwater mixing

If anyone can let me know if the general specs are okay for the type of system I've described in my other posts, I'd really appreciate it - even more if you have any opinions on the specific brand/model of the equipment I'm considering. I'm still making final decisions on what types of fish I want, but I'm almost certain it will have mostly small fish, with quite a few snails and shrimp, and later on perhaps a couple types of soft coral.

Special thanks in advance for any responses. As each day goes by I'm more and more committed to starting this hobby. Just seeing the fish swimming around in their tanks waiting to be bought clinched it for me.

sgould

Water movement of 20x or more is good advise when considering powerheads. Koralias are good powerheads...I have 3 and like them. However, they are more expensive than other options. You should be able to find powerheads that give you the increased flow rate at a cheaper price. Maxijet powerheads, for instance, are another one that I have used.

Good idea to go with a skimmer. I have no personal experience with Seaclones, but I have read mixed reviews and would be inclined to go with something else, but perhaps someone else on here actually has a Seaclone and can address this better than I.

au01st

You want minimum 20x turnover per hour, and up to 40x. Two Koralia 2 powerheads would be sufficient for you. The benefit of the Koralias is their wide flow; they shoot out a cone of water instead of a jet. I have 2 of the model 3's on my 75 and like them. I have found the best prices on the Koralias at:
http://www.aloha-aquariums.com/servl...ralia-2/Detail

For substrate, you'll want 1-2mm particles as the finer stuff gets blown around with the Koralias.

I wouldn't waste my money on the Seaclone skimmer. A decent value is the Coralife Super Skimmer. I've seen CSS 65's going for as low as $40.

If you're running a skimmer, there's no need for a HOB filter or canister filter, and you shouldn't interchange equipment between your display tank and quarantine tank.

To prevent a cycle in the QT tank when quarantining new fish, take a handful of sand from your tank and put it in some panty hose and suspend it in the QT tank.

Crazed

Hm, okay, interesting. Everything I've read thus far suggested 5-10 turnovers per hour. Thanks to both of you.

Incidentally, that's the other skimmer that was on my list that I found at the store (although at the store it was $100; maybe I'll have to try to cut them down a bit).

Would you go with just a sponge filter setup in the quarantine tank, then? If you leave something like a sponge filter in a dry tank, should you clean it in between qt tank uses to prevent the buildup of dying-off stuff?

I'm still probably going to get a canister filter; as I said, I don't want to run it full-time in my tank, just for the occasional activated carbon session, and they seem reasonably priced. I know you recommended not to be swapping equipment between the two tanks, but is that due to an inconvenience factor or a safety factor? The particular model seems to be designed for easy swapping, and I've read in my books that you can do something similar to this... as long as you clean it before you put it back into the main tank. Have I read wrong about that?

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check those out too. I'm pretty sure they had that brand up there. I'll still probably pick up the cheaper ones for mixing up saltwater, use in quarantine tanks and blowing detritus; the ones I asked about earlier would be good for that, right?

Thanks!

BigJoe

If you are wanting something for occasional use as a carbon filter why not just get a HOB from wal-mart they have bio bags available for most of them and they normally don't cost $30

au01st

If you want to run carbon, you can get a media reactor like a Phosban 150, it is more efficient than a canister filter.

I would NEVER swap stuff from QT to display tank. If you need to treat in the QT tank, the medicine could contain copper and even trace amounts of copper could kill any inverts in the display tank and some fish are even sensitive. This is why it's advised that SW tanks are purchased new and not used, you don't know what was in it before.

Yeah, I would stick a HOB filter on the QT tank. Something around $10-$15 will be fine for that. That filter, a power head, a heater, and a few large pieces of PVC will be sufficient for QT as a light is not needed and you don't keep rock or sand in there.

Crazed

Okay, that sounds good to me. Thanks guys! I'm looking to go back to the store on Monday to get a full list of the specific parts I'll be getting, then go from there. Happy Easter if I don't post any more before then!

Crazed

Okay, I just got back from the store. Here's my final list; can anyone tell me if everything looks alright?

58 gallon Oceanic glass tank (36''x18''x21'')
Coralife superskimmer, handles 65 gallons
Aquatic Life T5 HO light hood with 2 acetic bulbs & 2 regular bulbs (39 watt) and moonlights
Sybon refractometer
2 Koralia 2, 600 gph each
Red Sea Coral Pro Salt
2 thermometers
~55 lbs of various types of live rock

Quarantine tank (exact model not sure, but I'm thinking 20 gallons?)
Hydro IV sponge filter

Misc:
Maxi-jet 900 powerhead for blasting detritus and mixing saltwater.
Feeding stick
Siphon vacuum
Gloves
Scraper
Marineland canister filter HOT magnum - this is depending on the cost of the unit, since if it's very cheap at the sale on Saturday, I'll buy it just in case I have need for more filtering later while the price is right

The man at the store recommended to get the T5s since they last longer and are more cost effective. His arguments made sense, but will I still be able to support the more light-shunning corals at the bottom of the tank, and will the heat be more or less than the PCs?

Only parts I'm unsure about right now are the heaters and the substrate; I didn't have time to look at them before closing.

My dad has agreed to buy an RO filter, since he's been wanting one anyway for drinking water (so at least I don't have to shell out the money for that ). It's a Pure-flo II; does that deionize and dechlorinate the water as well? Also, if the RO has produced its "quota" of water at one time (say 50 gallons), it won't continually purify (and therefore waste more) new water, until it's actually used again, will it?

Crazed

Please forgive me for bumping the thread, but since I'm going to the store one final time tomorrow (before buying things on Saturday/Sunday), I'd love to hear your feedback on the above post and my following, new questions.

It's a two-day sale, and I need to buy the tank on Saturday to get all the filters running, leak check, and mix and age the saltwater, before going back Sunday to buy the live rock. I am *sincerely* hoping they can hold the live rock for a couple days, but if not, they're offering incredible savings on just those two days. So, if I have a 24 hour period to set up the tank and age the water before adding live rock, can I do it? Like I said before, ideally I'd like them to hold the live rock for a couple days with the sale discount, but if that's not an option, it's going to have to be within that weekend if I want the huge discount - is it ill-advised to set up a tank for live rock in such a short period? Also, if I can do this, is it also okay to paint the back of the tank and let it try until the next day as long as I don't get it wet?

Additionally, if the main tank, way down the road when I have my fish and inverts, gets sick or springs a leak, how can I accommodate all the creatures in the quarantine tank long enough to get a new tank/cure the illness? Every resource I've seen has said to move the entire population into the tank for very severe, tank-wide illnesses, to allow it to die off in the main tank, but how is this possible with the usual barebones QT setup?

If you could respond to this post and the one above before about 12 EST on the 15th, I would be immeasurably indebted to you, as I'll be going to the LFS after then and I'd love to know the answers about the parts list and my above questions. Thanks so much for your continuing expertise and help!

petlover516

the solution for the fish getting a huge sickness is to recognize the disease early! for the leak question, im not sure...i would NEVER use ANY type of carbon filter in a Q-Tank. Why? Carbon ABSORBS ALL THE MEDICATIONS u would put in it! that destroys the whole purpose of a Q-Tank! what u could do is use a sponge filter in the main tank, everytime u need to quarantine, move it over to a Q-Tank(instant Cycle) and than when your done Qing, clean it in a 1:19 bleach/dechlorinated water solution, and than rinse it in dechlorinated water, and put it back in the main tank! that way it has no medications in it and theres no carbon absorbing half the meds from the Q-Tank!

Crazed

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't meant to imply I was going to run carbon in the QT; I would run it only in the main tank periodically. Thanks for verifying the sponge idea, though, I appreciate it; it's what my book suggested, but you were the first person to tell me what exactly to do before putting it back in the main tank. Thanks!

Any tips on the other questions?

petlover516

ur welcome. ok well if u know what your buying in equipment as a definate list, than u should start researching the nitrogen cycle and maybe a little on what fish to keep. fishlore.com gives grest profiles on different SW fish and SW facts! for heaters i would go with All-Glass Aquariums or MarineLand or ehein jagar. RO filters aren't necessary, but good thing to have. For Substrate go with Aragonite Sand.

Crazed

Thanks a bunch for the advice. I figure an RO filter is nice to have, especially since my dad is offering to buy one (my mom has been bugging him for a couple years now because she wants to drink RO'ed water), and it certainly won't hurt the aquarium. So, the filter we're going to be buying today; the rest will come on Saturday, and I'm hoping the LFS can hold the live rock for a bit after purchase.

petlover516

yeah RO will help alot, it may not be neccessary for a FOWLR, but it IS necessary for a reef tank if u might do that down the road.