BigJoe

Ok so i'm back again asking stupid questions cause i have the freshwater tank i want almost exactly what i want (may put a couple more plants)...

What I reall would like to so is smt really small 3-10g but the main things i'm confused on is basiccally what I need and how much will it cost...

Say I take a 10g tank do i have to have PC lights or better or can i do with CFL's given that i provide enough wattage... what about 2-4 cfl daylight bulbs and 1 18-in actinic or cfl actinic (if that exists) (i'm trying to keep it as budget friendly and practical as possible...)

on to a skimmer... i'm a FW person and i have no idea what this does and if i need one in an aquarium this small... if i do need one how much is it going to cost and is there a DIY alternative... I'm an engineering student so I am always looking for creative alternatives...

I have been told i don't need a filter but i could possibly use a HOB filter and modify it to make as a refugium or mini sump... is this true...

Here is what i was thinking for a 10g which would just be scaled down for anything smaller...

-10g rect tank
-HOB modified refugium
-10-15 lb live rock... Hopefully some tonga root (i think thats what it is called)
-1-2 in live sand or regular aquarium sand
-some soft corals on one side and hard on other
-I was also thinking if its a 10-14(about same brice just lights start going up in cost) 1 anemone and a small clown fish.... if no anemone then maybe smt else that is small and colorful...
anything else that i can figure out that might fit in...

oh and for lights i can muster up a 4 bulb 52W daylight cfl system or i can modify that to whatever it needs

Mike

Personally, I wouldn't mix hard/soft corals in a small tank. I'd also not keep an anemone in a 10 gallon. The water parameters will be fluctuating too much in a small setup. There should be several types of soft corals you could keep with the lighting you're talking about. Check out mushrooms and zoanthids too. Very colorful and grow nicely if you keep your parms in line. Also check out the articles to the skimmer and refugium that are linked in your first post for info on fuges and skimmers.

BigJoe

is there such a thing as a screw in actinic bulb? or am I gonna have to find a different aquarium only fixture... anything aquarium only costs a lot more... i'm trying to make this as cost effective as I can... do i absolutely need actinic?

BigJoe

also would i still need a powerhead and what is one that i might be able to find cheap... sry for asking everything i have read assumes you can start out with a 55g or bigger... and i'd love to have a 325g with 125g sump/refug and 10,000 dollars in corals and inverts and fish... but i can't... yet... it will come a day... but for now i'm gonna have a 14g planted w/ fish freshwater and hopefully if i can figure it out a 10g nano reef...

ok and another question... if i buy live rock from a local store i know that the colors are often living things... are those like almost corals waiting on light to grow or is that just some kind of bacteria? yeah i know stupid question but i'd still like to know...

travie

The colors on live rock will most likely be different forums of algae. They are probably not going to be corals. Sometimes you can get coral hitchhikers on LR, but you usually can tell the difference between coral and algae. You will still need a small powerhead for water movement.

I highly reccommend you start with something bigger then a 10g especially if this is your first saltwater tank. I would say start with a minimum 29g/30g tank. A 10g is not going to be forgiving to any beginner mistakes that you will make. This goes for everyone that uses a 10g tank for their first SW, not just you, so I don't want you to think I'm singling you out.

Here are three things you must to do to be successful with saltwater tanks. Have patience, do not rush any step in setting up this tank. Research every step for setting up a SW tank and every livestock purchase. Last thing you must follow is do not make impulse buys of livestock.

My finally advice for this post is start with reading one or both of these books before you even start buying equipment or setting up the tank: the new marine aquarium; Step-by-Step Setup and Stocking Guide, by Michael S. Paletta or The conscientious marine aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists, by Bob Fenner are about the best two books to buy on how to setup and maintain saltwater tanks. They will teach you a lot.

BigJoe

well as for the 30g idea... if someone here wants to throw in some stuff then maybe but seeing as how i'm never lucky as for free stuff (uncle threw out 2 55g tanks a day before i asked him for them... and of course they were gone...) but also above the tank 30g tank means deffinate use of skimmer more lights more salt more liverock and ultimately more coral before i get it to my liking plus then i would really want fish... so in all the reason i want to make a nano tank is that I simply don't have the money for all the extra costs of it... if petco puts the 20g tanks out for 20 dollars again soon then i might get a 20g maybe 20glong but other than that not possible... i do understand that you are trying to help but its just not possible for me to get smt that big unless i somehow get it for free or start getting more money...

ok so back to the starter: If i'm going to start this i will need:
Tank $10-$20
Power Filter(refu) $20
Power head $20
Lights w/ canopy (DIY) $50 maybe more if i have to buy reflectors or price of wood jumps again... and bulbs $25
15lbs live rock @ $3 a pound (talked to guy about it already) $45
Salt $15-20
Sand $20

which amounts to about $240 before any additives or corals...
I noticed that on DFS they have a 12g nano cube with stand for 209... or a 24g w/o a stand for 220 neither of which has LR or salt mixture or sand or a pH probably... would it be worth it to use either of these systems

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...5&pcatid=19355

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...6&pcatid=13976
both i'm quoting the CFL price... sry cant afford MH

travie

Been checking www.craigslist.com and www.kijiji.com lately?

au01st

The All in One kits like the nano cube and aquapod are usually good deals, and will have necessary equipment. They also can make GREAT nano tanks with a few mods and are upgradeable so if you want fancier stuff in the future (like HQI metal halides) they're available without having to DIY.

To be honest, this is not a hobby that you can really do "cheap" and be happy with the results. Yeah, you may be able to have some clown fish and a few softies, but once you start adding corals, it's hard to stop. I started my 75 with an estimated budget of $1000, and that went out the window before I even had water in the tank.

There is a saying in this hobby: "He who buys cheap, buys twice."

BigJoe

When i say cheap i don't mean accually cheap... just as cheap as i can make it before adding corals... that is a when i see it i'll ask and see if it fits into my being able to handle it... think of it like a LR only tank idea that will hopefully evolve with money over time... when i added it up i got just over 400 dollars for 12g and about 540 dollars for 24g thats nothing but live rock, sand and saltwater going in. no refug or skimmer...

i'm not trying to be difficult i am just wanting to make sure what it is that i need to buy because it's going to be about 2 Mo. before i can actually buy anything (unless smt drastic happens in which case i'll be asking about smt much bigger) say if i was to go with an all in one... what other equipment would i "have to have"

also about how much a month am i gonna be going through additives and salt... I don't want a book answer i want a realistic "tried it" answer...

travie

Another problem you will run into with a 10g is you can't do much of anything. Only one fish, maybe two fish if you get two of the selection few that can co-exist, can go in a 10g. You also won't be able to get that much coral diversity into such a small tank either. Most corals need their distances from other corals, so that they don't wage chemical warfare to try to kill each other.

Your monthly expenses for a 24g or smaller will be relatively small actually. Food, salt, water, and electricity. Salt will be cheap over the time it gets used up. You can buy a bucket of salt that is for a 150 gallons of water for 50$. This should take you a good amount of time to use up since you only need to do a 10% water change a week. Water whether RO water or distilled water is a must especially in a small tank in my opinion. I can get RO water at my local Wal-Mart for about $1.84 for 5 gallons. Food will last awhile, but I recommend buying the highest quality food you can find, which will be a little more expensive then the low quality foods. And for electricity, I'm not sure on that number.

au01st

You can figure out electricity. Find the ratings of pumps and lights, figure out your lighting schedule, and you can calculate how much money it will cost for power. I think I figured out my tank to like $25 a month or so, which includes lights being on 12 hours a day and a Mag driven pump (but I did go with low wattage powerheads in the koralia series).

I have 5 kinds of frozen food: Marine Cuisine Carnivore, Marine Cuisine herbivore, Formula 2, Mysis shrimp, and brine shrimp. I go through a pack of the carnivore every month as that is the morning food. I feed flakes in the afternoon, and alternate the evenings between the mysis and brine shrimp (don't use the herbivore food too much) and skip every 3rd evening feeding. I also keep a piece of nori in the tank for my flame angel to nibble on.

The frozen packs run about $5 each, and the only one I have to buy the carnivore food every month, the others every other month or longer. The flakes ran $5 for a small container and it's still got plenty left.

I feed with a turkey baster to make sure everyone gets some food, even the corals. With a 10g tank, you will likely not need more than 1/4 of a cube per feeding, so a $5 pack of frozen (depending on what your fish are will determine which food to get) should last 2-3 months, and flakes even longer.



The buckets are the only way to go, and if you don't plan to have a reef right away, you could get away with not using "reef salt" which is high in trace elements, and just use regular salt (cheaper), but you will need to switch to reef salt when you add corals.



With most of the all in one tanks, you can incorporate a refugium with little trouble, just a light and some algae, and a skimmer is not necessary if you keep up with water changes.

BigJoe

ok thats the info i was looking for.... I don't think i am going to want fish and if i do it will be one small fish (gobys or smt small). i am mainly looking into small corals... the more i look the more i like different zoas and maybe a medium sized mushroom as a centerpiece (eventually) if i'm sticking to zoas is there any problems just getting them too close... and if so how far apart... if there is still room after i get what i want of those i might add some soft corals to the floor or top... i am really hoping to start a build in late May (be moving in may so right after the move I'll try to get all this going...

au01st

Yes, some zoas grow faster than others and the more aggressive species can grow over slower species.

Honestly, a tank without a fish is boring, and there's plenty of small species that can make nice additions, like a firefish or other goby. The fish are easier to care for than corals as they handle temp and salinity changes much better than corals do.

Keep in mind you're probably seeing pics of very colorful zoas and those are usually pricey. I'm still hunting for some Purple Hornets and I'll be lucky to find a frag at $50 a polyp. Most of the "common" colorful ones like Eagle Eyes, Whammin Watermellons, etc, go for $2 a polyp to $10 a polyp.

Your lighting can also change the colors slightly from what you see online, as can photography tricks. Just keep all this in mind when you start spending money on them.

BigJoe

oh i intend to buy from a LFS. i know the guy well enough that he doesn't want to steer me wrong cause he likes to buy frags and bought some albino cories last time i had 4 of them accually hatch... i know there is a cost to them i intend to add them slowly... i might add some shrimp for movement... then again i do like those firefish... either way i know i want a lot of color and zoas tend to be the more colorful thing that might fit into a tank the size i'm looking at... i like things that sway in the current... if somehow i can get a larger tank i want an anemone but from what i hear they are dangerous for things near them...

au01st

Well zoas won't really sway in the current. You could stick some pom pom xenia in there for movement, short arms and they pulse open/close their polyps.

Also, how about some sexy shrimp? They're small getting to about 1" total size when grown, and do well in odd numbered groups of 3 or more.

Anemones can be dangerous as they move around the tank til they find a spot they like, stinging everything along the way. They also pose a risk of decimating your tank if/when they die. There are some colorful variations like green or rose bubble tips that are pretty popular, but anemones in general are very sensitive to water quality, require a mature tank (and at that point you have coral in there) and require high lighting.

BigJoe

thats why i ruled it out unless i get a bigger tank...

BigJoe

OK... so add my luck in... i almost through out the idea totally of getting into SW unless i converted my 14g FW over because i thought i was going to get a dog... well due to area restrictions and really not thinking i could make a 45+ lb dog happy in an apartment i got reinterested in the idea of a tank and started looking around... my fiancee is a little more receptive to the idea now since she really wanted me to get a dog until i told her why i thought it would not be a good idea... so i was at petco and on clearance for $100 was a brand new 36g bowfront tank w basic hood... but got to thinking where could i put it... thats a lot of weight... so i looked at the stands they had... and i found a stand for a 40g breeder... $80 and i thought about that and thats 180 dollars( either way i was to buy that combo...) and both would require bigger pieces (PHeads and LR) and therefore... a 400-500 dollar build budget went out... then i saw a 28g euro tank with (crappy) kit for $200 w stand... all the kit really gains me is a DIY ready ref. and a heater probably not best but i'm sure it would work... and yet DFS still has that 24g pod on sale for 212 although its on backorder...

so now that you've read all the non interesting info i found... I got some questions... in a SW tank how much weight per gallon is a reasonable assumption... if i can price it out i might build a stand for it...(if it's cheaper...) and is a 40g breeder tank going to take more than CFLs to light...

also i thought of another DIY project... what if i took a standard work lights (usually 100+w MH) how much WPG would i really need to not worry about the min requirements of most corals... the cooling of them seems to be the only part i can't quite figure out... unless i somehow suspended them above the tank... (would that look too rednecky?) (keep in mind i am from TN)