glowa8

Hi all
After how long I should change the water(5%) since I set up my tank?

soldieroffortune1974

If you are using live rock to cycle,then I would change 15% every 3 days.

Peterpiper

As the tank is in the early stages of the cycle, I would not do any water changes until the cycle is complete, your readings when you test the water should be ammonia-0, nitrite-0. The ammount of water that needs to be changed will depend on your reading for nitrate. If you had a reading of 30, and your target was 20, then you would do a 30% water change

Matt

Usually every 3 days or so with Live Rock.


Add To My Reputation Plz


From Matt

Lucy

If someone thinks you give good advice they'll give you rep points without your having to ask.

Shawnie

soldieroffortune reccomended the same thing...first

glowa8

sorry where I can do that??

nemo addict

if you are doing a fishless cycle then there is no need to do water changes until you get a nitrate reading as water changes just make the cycle take longer.. then do small changes until you get to zero then you are ready to add your first fish ,,

Matt

Lucy no-one ever gives me rep points so im sorry for asking its just i feel like such a lump of fish poo.

And yer if u use live rock then every days

travie

What do you mean by that? It makes no sense. If there is just live rock in the tank, no water changes should be made till the cycle is complete. If fish or inverts are in the tank during the cycle, then water change every day.

Peterpiper

Hi Matt,
If you are cycling live rock, you do not do any water changes.
You should not have any live stock in the tank during the cycle.
The reason you do not do water changes...
When you are cycling the LR the following happens
Some things on the LR have died due to transport, as the thing that died decay they release ammonia. This ammonia is what the bacteria feed on. As the ammount of ammonia increases so will the ammount of bacteria.
If you do water changes during the cycle, then you would be removing a % of the ammonia that the bacteria require and in so doing, you would prolong the time it takes to cycle the tank.
The reason it takes so long to cycle with live stock in the tank is due to all the water changes.

glowa8

Thank you guys.Where I can give rep points?

nemo addict

shame they where both wrong
and me and peter was right reps point all round for us

soldieroffortune1974

Well,I wouldn't count me out as being "wrong'. When you cycle your aquarium using live rock,there's a multitude of organisms present in the rock (hence the name LIVE rock). If you do not change the water,these organisms die off rapidly,due to the ammonia. Yes,it takes longer to cycle when you change the water,but a larger amount of beneficial organisms survive. Therefor,I suggest 15% water changes every 3 days to ensure the survival of said organisms.You will have an overall healthier system in the long run.

Peterpiper

Ok you have a point.. Organisms in or on the live rock do die and then decay.
If you placed LR in the tank and had no die off, you would not get any ammonia. If you are removing the ammonia that the bacteria require to live and multiply, then how do you know how much bacteria you have.. or that you have any at all??
The ammonia is what you are testing for and it must be present in the system that is cycling, if you remove the ammonia you will stop the cycle and the bacteria WILL start to die off.
Pete

nemo addict

Cycling is the process of introducing and establishing the e ssential bacteria. To cycle a tank, these two groups of bacteria need to be present and established in sufficient numbers ,there is a group of beneficial bacteria that can convert ammonia into nitrites, there is a second group of microbes that can convert nitrites into nitrates, and nitrates are removed by filtering/skimming ,, if you do water changes you are removing a lot of these bacteria and removing the ammonia that make these bacteria grow thus prolonging the cycle ,, most of the organisim in the live rock live of the ammonia and nitrites making your rock more healthy in the long run and most hitchickers will survive the cycle

soldieroffortune1974

Good questions Peterpiper and hopefully I have 1 or 2 useful answers.

You are correct in stating that organisms die,decay,create ammonia for the bacteria to thrive on,and multiply. Ammonia is necessary to start and continue the cycle. When the organisms die off quickly,they produce much more ammonia in abundance. What is being forgotten,is that the organisms while alive,produce waste. All living organisms produce waste,therefore,they will produce ammonia in that waste. So,my argument (and experience) rests on the facts,that the more organisms that do not die off,produce more useful ammonia,than the production of the ammonia when they die. (since once the dead organisms decaying wastes are used up,they can't produce more)

You may get a faster cycle by killing off the organisms contained in the live rock,but by doing the water changes until the cycle is completed,you guarantee the production (not removal) of the necessary ammonia.

nemo addict

prolonging the cycle is more likely to kill more of in the rocks then a high level over a short period ,, as most can survive the cycle process thus giving you more bacteria and more live stuff in your rocks

soldieroffortune1974

Not entirely true nemoaddict. The rising ammonia levels kills more and more organisms,exponentially. A short cycle guarantees a higher mortality rate than a slower cycle. Granted,there are some organisms that can survive in almost pure ammonia conditions,such as the nitrobacters we breed through the cycle,and also granted the hitchhikers MAY survive physically,but a lot of their functions are impaired (such as reproduction) from exposure to the higher ammonia levels.

The organisms survive better,by removing excess ammonia through the water changes. Once the bacteria starts to multiply,they will continue to do so,but they multiply slowly,and the ammonia levels multiply much faster than the bacteria.Reducing the ammonia,doesn't reduce the bacteria,allows the survivng organisms to thrive,while producing wastes to produce more bacteria.

travie

But do the hitchhikers really produce enough waste, while alive, to cycle the LR to handle the waste of fish? I doubt it, so an additional ammonia source will be needed to get the LR fully cycled to be able to handle the waste of fish.

nemo addict

Most of the more fragile organisms will die off during the curing process. However, if properly cured, many invertebrates (i.e. Amphipods and Copepods) and corals will survive ,,
Only when supplied with nitrite by the nitrosomona bacteria do the nitrobacters begin to propagate and to convert nitrite into nitrate ,, The newly established nitrifying bacteria (nitrobacters) that have developed are just babies, and they need time to mature and multiply. These bacteria are living entities that to survive require oxygen, and food (ammonia or the bio-load, which is primarily generated by waste from all things living in an aquarium). Living on the surfaces of everything in the system, the larger their numbers, the better they are able to absorb the bio-load placed on the aquarium. However, when the bio-load "exceeds" the nitrifying bacteria population established, ammonia will begin to show up in the aquarium again, and if the load is extremely heavy the reappearance of nitrite is most likely as well.

soldieroffortune1974

travie I have cycled aquariums with and without water changes,while changing the water does expand the cycling process,cycling with water changes does improve the overall health of the aquarium,and the organisms there-in. The organisms do provide adequate wastes,or the bacteria would not grow.

The main reason is that initially,the bacteria levels are low,and they do not multiply very fast. It doesn't take much ammonia to establish the bacteria. The ammonia levels increase much more rapidly than the bacteria,at a rate of about 400 to 1. By the time all the "die-off" is consumed by the available bacteria,the surviving organisms will produce sufficient amounts of wastes to continue the growth of the bacteria.

Here is an excellent article to read about Nitrifying bacteria:
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

The process of the bacteria is much slower than the production of ammonia from wastes or decay.

nemo addict

[point added] in the long term it is more benefical not to change water but to propergate more benefical bacteria to cope with the filtration in which the rock is put in the aqurium for ,, the less bacteria you have the more your tank is prone to spiking when adding livestock ,, so when you get ammonia your tank will cycle again to cope with the bio load propergating more bacteria to cope with the ammonia -nitrite-nitrate,,
EVERY book i have read has advised to do a fishless cycle with live rock WITHOUT doing water changes ,,,, so lets beg to differ before this turn s in to a big debate ,,
but the advise i gave was what i have learnt from several reef books over the last 2 1/2 years ,, so i go with the majority as i havent read a book yet that advises on water changes until you have nitrates ,,,

soldieroffortune1974

nemoaddict most of that is accurate,and establishes my argument nicely;except the part about the bacteria reproducing babies. Single celled organisms,nitrobacters included,reproduce 'a-sexually' they form by splitting their cells in half.1 becomes 2 becomes 4 becomes 8,etc,etc The bacteria is formed,fully matured,identical replicas of itself.

when the bio-load "exceeds" the nitrifying bacteria population established, ammonia will begin to show up in the aquarium again, and if the load is extremely heavy the reappearance of nitrite is most likely as well.


At this point the bacteria starts to multiply again,increasing the bio-filtration needed to handle the increased bio-load. That's what I meant by the bacteria reproducing at a slower rate than the production of the ammonia levels.

nemoaddict,you're agreeing with me without realising it. We are all on the same page,doing the same thing,just differing in opinion on how fast to do it.

Peterpiper

Yes your correct in regards to the ammount of ammonia produced by living things v dead things.
One of the points I am trying to make when people ask about cycling a tank is that you need to have more bacteria in the system than the existing bio load.
If you do water changes during the cycle, you are removing ammonia.
Once the cycle has completed the amount of bacteria you end up with will only be able to handle the existing bio load, ie if you add your fish to the tank now, you will increase the bio load and the tank will go into a mini cycle. So you would need to start doing more water changes again??
If during the cycling of the LR you did not do any water changes, then as you stated, you would have a lot more ammonia in the system during the cycle, this extra ammonia will allow the bacteria to grow in numbers quickly during the cycle. Once you have readings of 0 for ammonia & nitrite your bacteria level will be higher than the existing bio load ( thing living on or in the LR ).
You would still need to stock lightly after the cycle 25%, then add 2 fish every 2-3 weeks and keep checking the ammonia levels

soldieroffortune1974

peterpiper,as I stated for nemoaddict's post. The bacteria levels only reproduce in sufficient amounts to control the amounts of ammonia present. They will not produce an over-abundance of bacteria as opposed to the levels of ammonia. When the levels of ammonia are at 00ppm,the bacteria will not reproduce anymore,and after a period of no increased load,they will stop production all together,only sustaining a large enough colony to convert the available ammonia.

As you stated,you have to stock slowly,WHY? Because the established colony has to produce more bacteria to handle the increased bio-load. When you cycle with live rock,whether you do water changes or not,the bacteria levels will only multiply in excess amounts of ammonia levels.Once the colony has caught up to the increased ammonia,they will only sustain a large enough colony versus the available amounts of ammonia. And so on,through-out the stocking process.

We too,are in agreement,just not on how fast to complete the cycle.Whether you notice it or not,everytime you add fish,you increase the bio-load and the existing colony has to produce more bacteria.Everytime you add fish,you are increasing the bio-load and are experiencing a mini-cycle.

nemo addict

it does nt say reproducing babys it say they are just babies young small what ever ya wont to call them
when the bio-load "exceeds" the nitrifying bacteria population established, ammonia will begin to show up in the aquarium again, and if the load is extremely heavy the reappearance of nitrite is most likely as well.
if you do it right first time no need to have it cycle again with corals and stuff that you will loose

I am reading several differnt books and its 03:15 am and now i cant read as my eyes are going boss eyed and i am not agreeing with you as you state a water change in needed and i am saying they are not ,,,, anyway im off to bed please read before you quote me wrongly [quote]The newly established nitrifying bacteria (nitrobacters) that have developed are just babies, and they need time to mature and multiply,,, meaning imature small not able to cope as good as larger mature [i hope i got my point across]
and GOODNIGHT

soldieroffortune1974

glowa8 sorry about the hijack, there seems to be a disagreement amongst myself and a few other enthusiasts as to whether you should do water changes during the cycling process using live rock.

You will have to use your own judgment,as always,but I stand by my 1st statement to change water every 3 days at 15%.

As far as nemoaddict and peterpiper we will have to agree to disagree.

glowa8 you can safely cycle the aquarium either way you choose,doing water changes will increase the time it takes to cycle.Not doing water changes will make the cycle complete faster. The best of luck to you,and hopefully we hear from you again.

Peterpiper

"The bacteria levels only reproduce in sufficient amounts to control the amounts of ammonia present". Yes that is my point, By removing ammonia via water changes you are restricting the bacteria.

"They will not produce an over-abundance of bacteria as opposed to the levels of ammonia". The bacteria "cell" will keep splitting if the bio load is higher than what they can handle

"they will stop production all together,only sustaining a large enough colony to convert the available ammonia."
So, the more ammonia in the tank during the cycle, the larger the bacterial colony. The larger the bacterial colony? so why are we doing water changes and removing the ammonia?

PS. I use the ammonia method to cycle. Keep the readings at 5.0 for ammonia.
If you want to keep the critters alive on the LR, then just cure the rock.
Get some crushed coral, stick it in the sump or filter and cycle it using ammonia for the bio filtration. By using this method you can fully stock the tank once the cycle is complete.
Pete

soldieroffortune1974

The whole point to doing the water changes while cycling the aquarium was to preserve as many organisms on/in the live rock,as stated in the beginning.

Good point,using the ammonia and crushed coral; I have used straight ammonia,but it can be difficult to come by.