occlown426

I know there has already been millions of posts like this but, to the veterans of SW, if one is going to have a FOWLR tank (smallest size will be 55gal) what is my best bet for filtration? Wet/dry, bio wheel etc? Thanks.

Gozer_1

I wouldn't go wet/dry. They tend to build up nitrates. I ran mine when it was a FOWLR with one canister filter and a skimmer. It worked ok but I ended up adding a second canister later on. A sump is the best way to go if you have the room. Again, no wet/dry in the sump. Stick to always wet biomedia. The easiest to setup and cheapest of the two is a canister. I want to build a sump so I can put the ugly heaters and stuff out of sight. A sump also adds to your total water volume. So, I say sump if you have the room and can buy the stuff for it.

offminded

ok...this makes me nervous because i have a 55 gallon FOWLR and i am running the all-glass aquarium mega flow sump filter on my system. i was told by my LFS that i can take away some of the bio ball media and add live rock to it in order to alleviate the high nitrate problem

Gozer_1

You'll be fine. Your LFS was right. You basically would end up with a sump/fuge of sorts. Great way to go. The problem with having your biomedia exposed to air is that it excels at detoxifying ammonia and nitrite into nitrate but lacks seriously in denitrfication, or turning nitrates into nitrogen. Anaerobic bacteria (No Oxygen) don't do well in this oxygen rich environment. They'll do better submerged. Anaerobic bacteria are the power houses of Nitrate reduction. They're the often forgotten about second half of bacterial organic decomposition. The trick is to get theair exposed bacteria to use up all the oxygen in the water, then pass the O2 depleted water through submerged media right after. This will create 2 environments. One will be Oxygen rich and kill the ammonia and nitrites. The other will get rid of the resulting nitrates with anaerobic bacteria. The end product is Nitrogen gas which is released in to the air. Voila you've completed the cycle of organic decomposition.

Sorry to get wordy there. Organic decomposition is one of my favorite topics.

occlown426

So I could essentially do the same thing and get away with using the wet/dry if I chose to? I haven't taken a good look at canisters yet, you got a link to a good one? How would you run a UV Sterilizer in conjunction with the canister, and the skimmer and heater would have to be in the tank right?
I swear the filtration is giving me the worst headache, it's so confusing!

Gozer_1

Filtration is easy once you get past the overwhelming number of options. As long as you have an area to harbor strong anaerobic bacteria you'll be fine with a wet dry. The thing is when a wet/dry is more dry. You need the water to flow through the aerobic section right into and through the anaerobic section so the water can't pick up ant O2. You also want both sections to be big enough. If you have twice the aerobic section your anaerobics will only take care of half your nitrates and vice versa. With a sump (wetdry or not) you can put all your ugly equipment in there. With a canister you can't. You can get inline heaters and a UV sterilizer is already an inline device usually. The skimmer unfortunately has to go up top. I use Rena Filstar canisters. http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquari..._canister.html They're simple to use and clean. Canisters can get heavy being hauled to the sink but I like how much filter media I can fit in one. When all is said and done my tank will be a combo of sump and canisters. I'll use one canister as a nitrate reduction filter and the sump will just hide equipment and provide a refugium space mostly.

I just realized this was my 1000th post so I had to come back and announce it lol.

occlown426

That's why I wanted to go towards a wet/dry because of the possibilty to put the skimmer in there etc. With a wet dry, could it be also a refugium? I want to grow macroalgae (assuming I'd also need light to help grow them) and if that saved me from buying a hang on refugium that would be awesome.
"As long as you have an area to harbor strong anaerobic bacteria you'll be fine with a wet dry. The thing is when a wet/dry is more dry. You need the water to flow through the aerobic section right into and through the anaerobic section so the water can't pick up ant O2. You also want both sections to be big enough. If you have twice the aerobic section your anaerobics will only take care of half your nitrates and vice versa"
Like you had said earlier, does adding smaller pieces of live rock and taking out some bio balls achieve that? And where would they be, on the bottom or mixed in with the bio balls?
Sorry if I'm making you be repetetive. I just want to be fully sure first. Thanks!

Gozer_1

Don't ever worry about asking questions. It's the best thing people can do. One of our better traits. I'm a firm believer that the teacher learns when the student questions. (hmm I think that'll be my new signature).

You can have a sump with out it being wet\dry. Wet\dry is more like a part of a sump. The sump is where you'll put all your equipment. A refugium can also be part of a sump. A sumpfuge if you will. The basic concept is, you have an extra tank above or below your tank. Water is drained into and pumped back out of this extra tank. These extra tanks range from modified glass or acrylic tanks or store bought sump kits. I have a 20 Gal tank that I will eventually make my sump. This tank will be set up with plexiglass dividers or baffles. These baffles will direct the water as it moves though the tank. This creates sections that you can use for various equipment, filter media, wet\dry setup, and yes, a refugium. The directed flow will act just like a power fliter. Here's a link to a sumpfuge that is almost exactly what I'll be doing. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugdesfaq5.htm You can see it has seperate compartments inside the tank for different purposes, the skimmer, filter media (bioballs or whatever), a refugium, heater, and the return pump. With this setup you'd have live rock in your refugium and the bioballs fully submerged in a previous chamber. That can be a wet\dry chamber but I'm not sure how to go about it. I've only seen store bought wet\dry filters. If you were to remove some balls in the wet dry to add rock it would go on the bottom. The rock needs to be under water. Do you have a link or a name for the wet\dry you're thinking about? It would help me to know what you're looking at.

agsansoo

Wet/Dry filter are thing of the past. They were built for FO (fish only) aquariums. Now of days it's all about live sand/rock, water movement and a big protein skimmer ! Live rock and live sand has replaced bio-balls as the primary biological filter in modern saltwater setups.

offminded

ok...so now that i have invested $$$ in my thing of the past wet/dry filter/sump...what do you all recommend i do to make my set up a bit more up to date? my setup is an all-glass company wet/dry filter. it currently has bio balls in it...css 125 gallon skimmer, heater, and a return pump...i am thinking about removing some of the bio balls and adding live rock to it...how does that sound

Mike

If it were my setup I'd make that wet/dry into a refugium. Not sure what yours looks like but I wouldn't use the bio-balls. If it's big enough and if it's possible (maybe there are too many baffles?) I'd put some live rock in the wet/dry with some chaetomorpha and a light source for the chaeto. The chaeto will compete against nuisance algae growth. The live rock will help with the cycle and possibly denitrification. You should get some nice amphipods and copepods growing in with the chaeto that you can feed to your tank. It may not be big enough for all that though...

offminded

that sounds scary...sounds like i am totally hosed at this point...

Gozer_1

Is it this one? http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...1&N=2004&Nty=1
If so it looks to me like you can remove the whole wet\dry section by removing the lower divider under the bioballs. That would create a single chamber for the rock and chaeto as Mike was describing. You could also just use this space for a skimmer, heater, yada yada yada. Then use the next section for the refugium with rocks and chaeto. Probably better that way. Use the largest space you can for the refugium portion. You would then fill it up as full as you need it to be. The maximum water height looks like it's only to keep the bioballs exposed to air. You don't need a "dry"section now so fill it up as full as you like, I believe. Should do the trick.

agsansoo

Dave,
Just take a few hand fulls of bio-balls at a time, and replace it with live rock rubble or Seachem
De-Nitrate http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...20nitrate&Np=1.

Look at my setup. Filter floss on top, then De-Nitrate.

Gozer_1

I second the deNitrate. Great product. You don't have this tank running yet do you? If you are just setting up you can replace all the bioballs now. If this is a tank that has been cycled then, yes, remove the bioballs a little at a time.

offminded

currently i have live sand and water in at this point

offminded

i have to admit i am a bit in panic mode now...

Gozer_1

No need to panic. The problem with the bioballs takes a good long time to really develop. You have absolutely nothing to worry about. You do want to go ahead and remove just a few bioballs and add some live rock rubble or the deNitrate under the bioballs. I think you may be able to add water to the filter to raise the water above some of the bio balls. I'm not entirely sure of how the flow works in that particular system. By the picture I looked at it appears that would work. I believe you'd have something that looked very similar to the photo of agsansoo's setup once you finaly switch out the last of the bioballs. I do highly recommend using the same media too. I'd also recommend Matrix by the same company. I have found the combo to work VERY well. If you can fill yours above the maximum level to fill the section that has the bioballs, then I recommend putting Matrix in that section with the deNitrate in the lower section if possible. Matrix is more suited to aerobic bacteria so it will help harbor the nitrifying bacteria. deNitrate is basically the same thing only smaller grained. The smaller size helps keep oxygen from sticking around in the pores, because there are fewer per rock. Also, if the water has just gone through Matrix, it's O2 will be low so it will harbor the DEnitrifying bacteria. Find a good balance between the two with testing and adding media if needed, and soon you'll see, at most, barely a hint of nitrate in your water.

Anyway, I really just stopped in to say Don't Panic! You have plenty of time and what you have right now will be fine for a good while yet. Just upgrade your filter media as you upgrade your stock and you'll be aok.

sgould

I'll 2nd what Gozer said...no need to panic! You're doing fine!

offminded

hey guys...thanks for the confidence and advice...i just want this thing to work and work well...and on the first try...but hey...you live and learn...right? i actually just bought my first piece of live rock and ended up with a free mushroom that happened to be on the rock...pretty cool!! i posted pictures in my gallery and in another post in the saltwater beginners section...anyway...thanks again! i am sure i'll have more issues and questions in the very near future