sirdarksol

There is periodically some discussion on the salinity that various puffers need. For some of them, things have been largely cleared up. For example, it is generally accepted now that dwarf puffers need no salt. They are purely freshwater creatures.
In other cases, such as many of the other common puffers you'll find at pet stores, there is an extreme dearth of information.

We can start with the figure 8 puffer. Many petstores sell these guys as freshwater fish. Some people will say that they are brackish fish. Still others will say that, as young fish, they are brackish, but as they grow, they need full marine water.

The interesting thing about the figure 8 puffer is that its habits in the wild do not match the best water parameters for these puffers in aquaria.
In the wild, figure 8 puffers are purely freshwater creatures. They are found in the Mekong River and in the Great Lake in Cambodia.
However, in aquaria, an SG between 1.005 and 1.008 can extend the fishes' life to 15 years (Wikipedia entry on Tetraodon biocellatus).

This is extremely interesting to me, that a fish in captivity responds best to seemingly different water parameters than its wild brethren.

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...y.php?id=25175
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraodon_biocellatus

Please, add information to this thread, but please be selective about where you get information from. I am most interested in seeing a combination of information about the wild creature and empirical data regarding the keeping of the creatures in aquaria. Claims of "Such-and-such, who even has his own forum about puffers, said so" do nothing. I even questioned putting the Wikipedia article in this post, but it was the closest thing to empirical data I could find. This thread is open to discussion about any and all puffers, from the tiny dwarves to the huge Fahaka.

Edit: Also, as a continuance of the discussion on figure 8s, I would love to see water parameter info on the Mekong and the Great Lake. Perhaps that could help explain why captive puffers do better with salt.

shih-tzu mom

Sirdarksol; Thank You for starting this thread- i am sure it will be a great source of help for all- i only wish i knew enough to add to it. bella

pinkfloydpuffer

I don't know much about the wild habitats... but I do know from personal experience and the experience of many other long-time puffer keepers that figure 8s will indeed do best in low brackish. Also, that dwarves are FW and GSPs do best in higher salinities.

The best source I have on puffers is Dr. Klaus Ebert's book Aqualog: The Puffers of Fresh and Brackish Waters, which I'd be glad to share information from if requested.

Red1313

I'm not a puffer expert but according to my two sources I've found slightly different information.

Acording to my aquarium book Tetraodon biocellatus is found in the freshwaters of Southeast Asia, Thailand, Malaysian Penninsula, Borneo, sumatra." There is also a long list of syn. names.
(Book is Baensch Aquarium Atlas 1)

According to mongabay.com they're found "In coastal fresh and brackish waters in Southeast Asia; Burma, Thailand, Indonesia, and Sumatra."

However some of the scientific names don't match so it's hard to say it they're using the common name as a bit of a catch all.

Hope this is relevant.

sirdarksol

Thank you. I will be taking you up on it. One thing I'm working on is why some freshwater puffers do better in brackish water when they're in aquaria. Finding that out may help find better ways of keeping these sometimes touchy creatures happier and healthier in the long run.

Awesome info, and it brings to light one issue that faces people who are interested in puffers; improper species naming. It seems that puffers have been pretty heavily hit by the problems of giving multiple species a single Latin name or, conversely, giving one species numerous Latin names, making it difficult for the lay person to pin down what precisely is a figure 8 puffer.

pinkfloydpuffer

I think most of the problem is just that puffers are relatively new to the aquarium trade, and not much research has been done into them.
Although there are scientists currently mapping out the GSP (T. nigroviridis) genome, which I think is way cool.

sirdarksol

And not even just the aquarium trade, but to science in general. There is still a lack of knowledge of the green spotted puffer's natural habitat as adults. Some species of puffers may actually have multiple species names (I think I mentioned this above). Anyway, it's something that will get sorted out as more people bend their minds to the issue.

On a slightly different topic:
I was thinking about the Figure 8 puffer and the fact that it is naturally a freshwater fish, but does better in brackish aquaria, and was wondering if, perhaps, the salinity inhibits parasitic growth in the puffers. We know that many puffers come into the aquarium trade with worms or other parasites. Maybe the salt helps the puffers deal with the worms, thus prolonging their life.
I wonder if anyone has kept de-wormed Figure 8s in freshwater before.

pinkfloydpuffer

I'm sure they have. Serious puffer keepers will deworm their puffers about every 3 months.

sirdarksol

Moved from another thread, since the discussion has gone beyond the range of the initial topic.

I'm still not convinced on the "pure marine" thing. I've read a lot of hearsay on it, but you're the only person I've "met" who can even begin to back up the claims that have been made. Most people can only say "such and such said that it's right, so it must be," and most of them have lost their puffers in a matter of short months or years, rather than the decade plus that puffers can live. Not a compelling argument, in my mind.

As far as Dr Ebert goes, the only qualification I can find on him is that he wrote a book on puffers. I checked the college article databases and found nothing. I'm guessing he lists resources at the beginning of the book. I'd also be interested in knowing what his doctorate is in (there's a Klaus Ebert who primarily writes about nuclear and chemistry issues. I'm curious if it's the same guy.

As far as the gobies and GSPs go, the pure brackish Bumble Bee Goby would do well in the 1.008-1.015 range that GSPs do best in. They would be better off in the lower range of that.

pinkfloydpuffer

At the time of writing the book he'd had over 40 years experience keeping and studying puffers. He'd kept them in various conditions to see which they do best in. For example, the GSP: he kept some in higher brackish/SW, and some in lower brackish/FW. He notes that the puffers kept in freshwater grew slower, are less lively, and although they did live about 9 years, they only reached about half the body size that the GSPs attainted after only a few years in the higher salinities.
The bibliography in the book lists about a hundred other books by a hundred different authors, so forgive me if I don't list them all
I've ran into many puffer keepers who have kept their GSPs in marine for years. But, I suppose in about 10 years we'll know for sure, right? Since my guys are in 1.014 for now and will be steadily increasing. I've had no problems of illness in them besides the obligatory IPs that all puffers will more than likely have. So far I am convinced that the higher salinities are much better for them.
I'd much rather keep gobies with figure 8s, as they are known to be much less aggressive than GSPs, and I know from experience that GSPs can be perfectly peaceful for a while and then suddenly turn to killers. Mine killed a molly, which is a more aggressive fish than the gobies, who wouldn't be able to defend themselves at all.

sirdarksol

No, I will not.

Okay, so he's got a bunch more experience than most of the people who have tried to convince me of this, presuming he's not lying (and I have no reason to believe he is).

My biggest concern with this is that there is no evidence of wild adult GSPs in full marine water. Of course, there's also little or no evidence of them in the mangrove forests or other brackish areas.
And then there's the fact that, in the wild, the Figure 8s are purely freshwater fish, but they do better in brackish aquaria, so we can't necessarily count on natural habitat, even if we knew what it was.

As far as puffers and gobies, one keeper has never seen any of his puffers attack gobies (even confirmed killers. He once had a Figure 8 do the same thing one of your puffers did, so he moved it to the goby tank), and he believes it may be because of the goby coloration. Black and bright stripes are a universal "don't mess with me" sign.

pinkfloydpuffer

Hm... that's interesting.
My 20g is now empty, and I have plans to get a figure 8 puffer for it. I was also considering gobies with him, but I'm not sure about that yet. I am a big fan of the species only tank.

sirdarksol

If you want to add something else, it sounds like the Bumblebees are the way to go. However, a tank with just a Figure 8 would be cool, too.

pinkfloydpuffer

Yeah, I'm working on figuring out which to do right now... I like having the cories in with my dwarf puffer, which is working picture perfect so far (but can easily be moved if need be), but I also love having my GSPs alone in their huge tank. I do like spoiling my puff babies.
I plan on planting the tank. My past efforts were moderately successful, but that was in a higher salinity, so I'm hoping that it will be better in the lower.