betta-cat

I posted this in another thread as well, the one about Koi in a marvellous above ground rectangular pond.

"I ripped out my liner from my in-ground pond last year (2007) because I couldn't see it and the waterfall/upper pond from my kitchen. It was pure maintenance, no enjoyment because of my busy summers. I re-built a smaller pond with the upper liner, just so I can see the plants and such from my windows. Hubby and brother took the big liner and build a rectangular, above ground pond just on my concrete patio. Now I can look out and see my goldies playing in the sun and the water flow. I just have the pump outlet jammed in one corner so it bubbles out. The plants were great, the fish were happy and I was delighted. I go out and lean my elbows and just watch over the edge.

So, long story even longer .... I plan to try to overwinter my goldfish outside. I couldn't do it in the in-ground because it was too shallow. The above-ground is 3 1/2' deep, 4'wide and 8' long. I have two trough de-icers (we're in farming country here), one sinking and one floating, plus a small fountain pump to circulate the water just a bit. We get cold snaps down to -40F/C here. What do you think my chances are? I'm only trying a few this winter. I hate to think of them as sacrifice fish but I don't want to leave the whole lot outside until I know if they will survive."

Has anyone tried this before? It is about 1000 gal. I have a tarp to cover it and will make one corner easy access to check on the de-icers and water movement. The fish are healthy.

kieley

for some reason i beleive the pond has got to be more the 4 feet deep as it will freeze up to that amount above ground. no idea what a trough de icer is but im assuming some sort of heater so maybe that will work! youll have to wait for someone who knows more then i do.. good luck!

betta-cat

Thanks, Kieley,


Trough de-icers keep the water from freezing solid. Farmers use them to keep water troughs open for their animals to drink from. I thought a sinking one would keep the bottom level from freezing and a floating one would keep a hole open, plus the small fountain pump will circulate the top levels of water to let gasses escape. I read somewhere that we shouldn't have too much circulation, because that stirs up the different temps of water, mixing the supercold with the merely cold.

What someone else did for years (until he forgot one winter), was let the top freeze 1-2", then pump out a bit of water so there was a gap between the water and ice. It worked (until he forgot). I might do this as well.

This year will be an experiment for sure. Our winters here in Alberta have been getting milder over the past few years so this may be okay. We haven't had 3 week stretches of -30 to -40C for a few years no.

Cheers,

kieley

its definatly worth a try! a friend of mine has tried before (without the de icer) and the whole thing froze.. it was about 4 feet deep although i do hear it gets colder in alberta then new brunswick!

gremlin

Gold fish can survive outside in the winter as long as they have water to swim in and surface access for gas exchange. If you can keep the bottom half of the pond thawed and maybe break up the ice on top, it should be fine. Is your patio covered? Is the pond against the house or completely out in the open? The house will radiate a little warmth, and the cover over the patio will help to keep some of the cold away. You could also do a greenhouse effect by putting clear plastic over the part of the pond that is closest to the open yard. Do you have any pics of the pond and how it is situated?

Fishies-for-me

Well to me it sounds good in theory....I don't know how big the deicers are or how much water volume they should keep clear , but the water movement from the pump should help to...good luck.

sirdarksol

It should work. The whole point of the trough de-icers is to keep the water liquid enough that the farm animals can drink. This means there's a lot of surface area and a lot of open water at the bottom (of course you know this) If you can, stack straw (or pile leaves) around the above-ground so that it is insulated.

Try to make sure the tarp isn't flush against the top of the pond. You want to leave room for air to move.

Also, keep an eye on the temp. If the water stays close to freezing, don't feed the fish. However, if the water gets to be higher, in the fifties or sixties, for example, they might need a little (really tiny) snack. Their appetite depends on the average temperature over the winter, and I don't know just how warm the trough de-icers will keep the water.

Lastly, I deleted your post from the other thread. It'll be easier for you to keep track of answers in one place, and we don't want to hijack the other user's thread.

Jess

I didn't realize this was an above ground. That poses different problems. I think it will freeze around the sides and top. The fish will move into the middle. (hopefully)

I like the idea of insulating with bales of hay. They used to use bales of straw to keep ice from melting for use in refrigeration many many years ago. (Ice houses)

I personally wouldn't move the water with a pump, disturbs the warm water below, but make sure the top is kept open for gas exchange with a floating de-icer. This will be very interesting to see if your above ground pond works in Winter.

My parents have an above ground stone enclosed planter. (aprox 7'X7') It would make a great goldfish/koi pond, the concern is its mostly above ground.

I have a pond if you're interested in seeing photographs. I went to great lengths to enlarge and deepen it so the fish would make it through the winter. Now its 30" deep. Here in CT our winters have been mild although it will freeze over from Jan-to the beginning of March.

Also take care not to break the ice with force. The vibrations can kill the fish. What I do is pour hot water over an area I want open, or I set a pot of boiling water on the ice to open a hole. But you won't need to do this because you have your floating de-icer. : )

sirdarksol

I was going to say almost this exact same thing until I realized what you said at the end: there's a de-icer.

For those who don't have de-icers, a suggestion is to put a cheap inflatable ball on the surface of the water. It not only keeps an area open for gas exchange, it keeps the ice from expanding to the point it explodes. In particularly cold climes, people have lost their fish when the ice cracks, sending shocks down through the water as Jess indicates above.

Jess

One more thing, you will notice that the goldfish will slow way down with the cold. They will stop feeding and rest on the bottom. Really you should only feed (I'm sure you know this) Spring/Fall mix, mostly a low protein diet, stop feeding when it drops below 45 degrees. Their metabolism slows so dramatically they can't process the food anymore.
And really you're just fouling the water they need to spend the Winter in.
(I guess what I do is run my filters until I stop feeding) Then I winterize the pond. Cover with netting to keep leaves out. Pull pumps clean out remaining leaves. . .Good luck, hope your goldies do well.

Jess

Thanks sirdarsol.

Fishies-for-me

[QUOTE

For those who don't have de-icers, a suggestion is to put a cheap inflatable ball on the surface of the water. It not only keeps an area open for gas exchange, it keeps the ice from expanding to the point it explodes. In particularly cold climes, people have lost their fish when the ice cracks, sending shocks down through the water as Jess indicates above.[/quote]

I have heard of people putting bales of straw into their ponds for this reason....well this and the fact that straw is hollow tubes and holds a lot of oxygen in the water .

Jess

Really? Bales of Straw? That's interesting.
About the ball, wouldn't the ice just push it up? I know when my heater isn't keeping up, the ice just wants to push it up and then I have to pour some water on it to get it in contact with the water below.
Also depending on the size of your pond, you may need two air openings, or two de-icers. I've gotten by with one. Also make sure the opening is over the deep section of your pond not in the shallow end. Its possible the shallow end will just freeze solid. Also the deep section will hold the fish and waste/gas exchange needs to happen directly above.

sirdarksol

Nope, the ball gets frozen into the water and squished. The fact that it collapses is both what allows it to stay put and what keeps the ice from exploding. There's a farm near me that has a pond in it, and every winter, this red ball ends up on its surface, and I've always wondered why. When I got a book on ponds, I found out.

One hole should be enough for any pond. If the pond's big enough to have two, then it's got more water, which means more oxygen is in the pond before it freezes over. Since the fish have a drastically reduced need for oxygen (same reason they don't need food unless the water somehow stays above fifty), they likely would survive without any holes (my friend ignored her pond the first year she had it because she didn't know anything about it) The next spring, she not only had all of her fish, she had fry.

Jess

You know its possible the people selling the heaters just want you to buy more. I'm just repeating what I read on the package for mine.

My pond from experience can't be ignored. Not big enough or deep enough.
Very interesting about the ball though. I imagine they would have to get a new one every year if it ends up popping. Not a big expense compared to the electricity spend on heaters.
I always have some fry. So I'm always looking for good homes. : )

sirdarksol

Yeah. In this case, at least one heater would be needed because it's above ground. My friend's pond is plenty deep and doesn't freeze to the bottom.

Fishies-for-me

I also read you can use well rinse and capped juice or milk bottles for the same reason....ice squashes the jug .

soldieroffortune1974

I don't know what type of technical/mechanical skills you possess,but here is a way to keep the pond at any temp you desire throughout the winter months.You can keep it above freezing,or at peak-summer temps for your area.

supplies- 1 small apt size electric water heater (I use a tankless heater)
- enough PVC or copper tubing to go around entire inside diameter of pond or enough for 2 ft circle in the center (variations are endless)
1 1/2 HP water pump (swimming pool pump works great)
1 container to hold heated water to return to water heater (water trough works great or old cast iron tub works well above ground,in ground doesn't matter. covered/uncovered your choice)

locate water heater anywhere you like,run piping from outlet of water to around pond, (any configuration you like) to tub,allow water to fill tub, use pump to siphon water from tub back to water inlet on water heater. process is self maintaining,all you need to worry about is keeping the tub filled (you can do that by having a valve installed to automatically fill water when it drops to a certain level.)

I have successfully built numerous of these for other individuals,with great success. 1 lady even used the idea to heat her greenhouse,the tub was placed in a greenhouse and the heated water provided moisture and heat enough for her to continue throughout the winter months. The uses are really endless,and a simple design. The water traveling through the piping heats the pond to any temp you want by adjusting the heat control on the water heater. (I have patent pending,but feel free to use it if it suits your purposes) good luck.

sirdarksol

Curious, SOF, have all of these been in Texas?

I ask because this pond is located somewhere that the temp gets cold enough to freeze even heated pipes.

I'm not saying it's not an excellent idea for the right climate, but I've had exposed pipes freeze up, even with hot water actively flowing through them.

soldieroffortune1974

It would be correct to say that these were built in TX,albeit North TX. For aesthetic purposes,I was assuming that readers would naturally understand that the plumbing would not be above ground,exposed to the elements. I couldn't say for sure whether it would work in more extreme climes,but I am sure it could be adapted to accomodate colder temps.

It would be worth investigating;however,I will not be the person checking on it's progress in person.I have never been anywhere;where running,hot water freezes in the pipes.That's a little too frosty for me.It starts getting below 70 and I am breaking out the winter gear.

sirdarksol

It could be adapted, the pipes would just have to be further underground than the minimum necessary for aesthetics. The effect would be neat, though. The water would "steam" during the winter, due to the extreme difference in temperature.

Fishies-for-me

wouldn't it be expensive to run tho?? I agree that it would look very impressive...lol

betta-cat

Hey thanks!! I'll keep the de-icers in place, move the small fountain pump up so it just agitates the surface, and I have a tarp to cover the top with bricks/rocks to hold it in place. The fish were begging for food so I went to my LFS to get some spring/fall food for them. The lovely lady (she is a real dear) knew exactly what I was looking for. They ate well but I didn't feed them a lot. It is supposed to be nice over the next week, that is, warmer than 50F or so, so I can feed them a bit daily again.

The pond is away from the house but well sheltered. I'm going to keep my eye out for a large enough heater for it but that might be difficult to find in my small town. Basically, I only want to keep it from freezing solid, if I can keep one area open from top to bottom, it should work. Like I said, this is an experiment and I hate to consider the poor fish as sacrifice fish but there has to be a first time to try this. If it doesn't work, I won't risk it again.

I now regret that I didn't suggest to the guys that we insulate it before putting the outside layer on. Hubby says 'too late', bro says "we could still do it". I like my bro's answer better. A nice layer of insulation over the cladding, then another layer of cladding might do the trick. I'd have to take all the fish out while they're working on it, of course.

Thanks again and wish us luck. They are happy right now and I will be anxiously peeking at them now and then once it starts to freeze.

soldieroffortune1974

Electric tankless water heaters cost pennies a day to operate,they are extremely efficient.It wouldn't be constantly heating cold water into hot water.Once the system was up and continuousely circulating,the heater would be reheating warm water to whatever temp it was set at.The main cost would be the initial setup,but once it was up and running,it wouldn't cost much to operate it continuousely.

Though,with extreme cold temps,I would advise using an enclosed,sealed and well insulated tub.A localised coiled-type design would keep a section opened up for gas exchange.I would locate the 'coil' around the deep end,as you may know;deeper water takes longer to cool.

The effect is worth the expense alone.It does steam and create a fog bank that is spectacular in the early morning dawn and evening sunset.

betta-cat

Terrific idea! I'll keep the plans in mind and see what happens after this winter and maybe go for it next winter. Hubby would probably enjoy a project like this. What amazes people is the time/effort and, yes, the expense we are going through to keep the fish happy in the summer and now trying to keep some of them happy over the winter. The ones outside are either 1 or 2 years old, results from the elders spawning.

They are still feeding lightly, a fall/spring food, I'm keeping a close eye on the temps. So far, the lowest is about 45F, most of the time it sits at about 50F. Its been a warm fall so far with lots of sun.

soldieroffortune1974

The expense doesn't have to be high.I get a lot of equipment second hand.I hardly ever buy anything new,and saves a lot of money.I am a bargain shopper,going out of business sales,garage sales,swap meets,flea markets. Anywhere to save more money,so I can get more equipment.

betta-cat

I thought I would give an update on my 'outside fish' in their patio pond. It is now Dec. 7th and I am still feeding them with a high quality spring/fall food. I found a really good pond thermometre which reads 48-50F, about 9-10C, so far not lower. The fish come to the surface for food. I have the pond covered with a tarp which has a layer of frost under it, this seems to be keeping the temps from rising/falling rapidly.

I'm going to feed them lightly until 45F/7-8C. We've had very little cold weather so far, a couple of days went to-16F/-21C, then popped back up again to above freezing. This is unusual for us. The pond dipped to 48F. It was snowing today, finally, but has already stopped. I hope it keeps on. If I can feed these guys until mid to end Dec, then the most they will be going without food is about 4-5 months. I usually have my goldies outside by April when we usually have a bit of a warm spell, which then cools off again for a few weeks and I fret over their health. They always come through.

The guys downstairs are doing just fine and dandy. Last summer's babies are growing. I broke down and got 2 little koi, who are rounding up nicely. My channel cats are huge and are living on their own.

Cheers,

sirdarksol

Sounds like things are going well. Good luck.

Jess

Hi betta-cat, I've got my pond set up for winter now. One last thing to do is pull the pump. Most likely I'll do that this weekend.
We've had some strange weather here in CT. Pond froze over for a few days with pump still circulating water. I've place the heater to open an air hole for the guys when the pump is removed. I've stopped feeding. No one is interested unless the temp is above 50 degrees. Wouldn't you know it, its 54 today all ice is gone. Still they're down deep in the pond so I think they're hunkering down for the winter. : )
I wouldn't worry too much about the months they're off their food. Their metabolism slows so drastically that they are almost suspended. They'll make up for lost feed in the spring.

betta-cat

My little in-ground pond is frozen right up, I'm not sure how deep the ice is but there aren't any fish in it. So far, there's been no ice at all on my big patio pond, the one with the brave and hardy goldies. I'm going to let them rest now for the winter. They fed a few days ago but just came along to say hello today. I have the pond covered, the inside of the tarp is all iced up but the surface is clear. My thermometre is still at 50F/10C. The next few days are supposed to get down to -20 to -25 C so I'll see if it starts to freeze up. I have a tiny little fountain pump at the surface to keep an air hole open but I think the de-icer would probably be enough.

We have had bizarre weather too, although it is perfectly normal for us in this part of the world. Rain one day, snow and blizzard the next, with the added thrill of the rain freezing into black ice under the fresh snow ...