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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Why is my pH 6??

Hi, I've just tested my pH and it is 6 possibly lower because the yellow is a bit darker than the API 6 but it doesn't test lower - even though my tap water is 7.5.
My tank pH has always been 7-7.5, this is the first time it is different.
I don't have wood or shells or anything which alter pH so any ideas what is going on? Not certain when it changed because I only test pH now and again.
Can certain plants maybe mess with pH? The only things in the tank are 2 plastic ornaments, and a ton of plants with a sand substrate.
The sand and ornaments have been there since the start but I add in a new plant every so often so all I can think of is one of the plant species is lowering my pH.
Should I add in some sea shells to try get my pH back up a bit?
Dojo is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
adding shells or crushed coral will help raise the ph slowly..and its recommended much more than any chemicals...did the tank go into a mini cycle by any chance? what are the ammonia , nitrite, and nitrate readings? if a mini cycle or a non cycled tank is going on, the ph fluctuates alot during that process..a partial water change will help also...just do about 30% as you dont want to raise the ph that fast...goodluck!
Shawnie is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
I don't think it's in a mini cycle, ammonia and nitrite are 0 and have been since it originally cycled. Nitrate is between 5-10 at the moment and water change day is tomorrow so I might do a 50% change to see if the pH will go up.
I've been thinking about it and I wonder if a dying plant caused enough CO2 to lower the pH.. I tried out a new plant species a couple weeks ago and it wasn't faring too well under low light - I was away for a week and when I got back it was pretty much dead so I took it out. But I'd say the decomposition released a fair bit of CO2.
If the 50% change doesn't help things or if the pH rises again and then drops i'll try some seashells.
It's so annoying lol I bought blue ram today and while he's in quarantine I intended to slowly drop the pH to about 6.5-6.8 using bogwood, so I buy the bogwood only to find my pH dropped all by itself. Now I have a lump of wood that I can't use or it'll drop my pH lower! humph.
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
50% might be too drastic where your ph is much higher ...id go a bit less than 50% and yes could have been the plant as well...
Shawnie is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
30%?
Dojo is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
that sounds better...your tap is so much higher that 50% could shock them...maybe 30 today and again tomorrow if you dont see it changing..thing is doing it gradual and if they arent showing stress right now, then add the coral or sea shells after a couple days of the changes...
Shawnie is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
I'll do that then, hopefully it will change gradually with 30%. Even if it is 6.5 after i'd be fairly happy with it because that's like 5 times less acidic I think.
Will update tomorrow after water change
Maybe i'll get to use my little piece of bogwood once I stabilise the pH lol
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
goodluck!!!!!!
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
What is the KH in your tank? Without a buffer there you can have PH crashes due to many factors. I would get a good KH liquid test kit and go from there(DO NOT use strips since the range is too broad to accurately test for KH). I would suspect that the first time you test it will be zero. You can add baking soda to raise your KH which will also raise your PH.
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
baking soda, I agree will work, just remember it happens very fast and you need to be very careful with fish in the tank and how much you add....and it also is something that needs to be added often so it wont settle the "being stable" issue ...
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
The tap water also needs the KH tested because doing more water changes may be doing more harm than good in terms of KH and PH. Just because your tap water is 7+ PH doesnt mean it will stay there if you don't have any reading for Carbonate Hardness. I agree with Shawnie on using something to raise the PH and help keep it there but without proper KH levels you are still prone to PH swings.
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPrudent View Post
The tap water also needs the KH tested because doing more water changes may be doing more harm than good in terms of KH and PH. Just because your tap water is 7+ PH doesnt mean it will stay there if you don't have any reading for Carbonate Hardness. I agree with Shawnie on using something to raise the PH and help keep it there but without proper KH levels you are still prone to PH swings.
thats more than I know and thanks for the help ....I learn something new everyday here!
Shawnie is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Shawnie: GH and KH readings are often overlooked in terms of testing water parameters in any tank and are very important in planted tanks. I learned this the hard way when I did my substrate swap in my 125G planted tank. The substrate I choose in combination with almost zero buffering capacity drove my PH to 4.5 overnight. Luckily I did not lose any fish or plants but was unaware that this could have such an effect. I slowly brought the KH up to the desired level using baking soda and the tank has remained right a 7.0 PH for almost a month now with weekly water changes on 30-40%. Even if you do have something that is trying to lower or raise your PH having that buffer there always helps. My CO2 drops my PH to about 6.0 during lights on and when I wake up in the morning its right back to 7.0 which I am now certain the only thing affecting my PH is the CO2.

Last edited by MPrudent; May 30th, 2009 at 07:12 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
thank you so much mpurdent...I hope this explination helps others as im a noob with KH and GH ..its very much appreciated!
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Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Hi Mprudent I don't have a KH test kit and I know my local fish store only sells strips for everything so i'll need to go to the good fish store that is over an hour away to get them. It'll be bout 2 weeks before i'll be able to get there before closing time (working all week and away next weekend) so if i'm still having pH trouble i'll definitely look into getting one.
For now, if I take a jug of tap water and let it stand a day or two and then test pH will that tell me anything about KH if the pH changes or stays the same?
And what would the ideal KH reading be if I want a pH between 6.5 and 7?

I think my KH must be ok because this pH trouble only started this month, I test the tank water's pH about once a month and it has always been 7-7.5, and the last time I tested was in April. So it has been stable since november last year until some time this month.
Dojo is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Adding plants will lower your KH level which will drop PH and leave you open to PH swings.

Quote from an article at American Aquariums:

"KH is basically the alkaline buffering capacity of your aquarium (there also is an opposite acid buffering process), a KH above 50 PPM helps prevent sudden drops in pH. KH (carbonate hardness) is an important source of energy for nitrifying bacteria that eliminate ammonia and nitrite. In addition, carbonates are used by plants for photosynthesis when carbon dioxide (CO2) is absent.
You can convert dH (German hardness) to ppm by multiplying your dH by 17.9. This is especially important with livebearers, goldfish, African cichlids, brackish and many other freshwater fish (which should have an even higher KH over 100-150 or more). In saltwater aquariums your KH (which is generally referred to as alkalinity) should be an absolute minimum of 240 ppm.
The production of Nitrates (via nitric & carbonic acids) will slowly reduce your ph, but a proper KH will keep a more stable ph. This is important to note, if your KH is low and your ph has been dropping, a large water change can cause stress on your fish, or even kill them (don't get me wrong, water changes are VERY important). What is missed by many aquarists is that the pH scale is logarithmic, which means a 1 point drop in pH is a tenfold sing in acid or alkalinity"

Unfortunately, letting a jug a tap water sit and testing for PH will tell you nothing about your KH. There is nothing in the water that is trying to lower or raise your PH so you will have no idea if there is a buffer present. Ideally, you would like a reading of 2-4 DKH for a planted tank. Closer to 2dKH is better than the high end of the scale. The strips will give you a general idea of your KH level but will not be as accurate as the liquid test. Have you done anything else to your tank in the past month or so that would cause a change in the PH? What plants are in the tank? Even though I always advise against the test strips they will atleast tell you if you have a KH reading at all.
MPrudent is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
More Reading....I know its lengthy but this article should help you out tremendously.

MORE ABOUT KH:

Another consideration of KH is that you can generally safely add the buffers (both freshwater and saltwater) that effect KH without sudden changes in chemistry (unless your freshwater KH is under 50 ppm already), unlike a direct ph or GH change. Maintaining these KH buffers keeps your tanks pH from drastic swings which can be deadly as once alkaline buffers are depleted sudden and dangerous pH crashes are likely (see more about pH later in this article).
The chemistry behind KH is quite complex, so I will not go into detail, however in the most simple terms I can think of; is adding these carbonate (or bi-carbonate) buffers will raise pH to a point of stability and the continued use of certain carbonate buffer “mixes” may raise pH even more (which is why a KH of 50 ppm is all you would want with your discus, while a KH of 200 plus is recommended for African Cichlids or Marine Fish). The rise in pH is related to the ratio of H+ to OH- ions. The CO3- will react with the H+ and eliminate it. This reaction will cause more H20 to break up into H+ and OH- ions. Because some OH- ions were already present, this shifts the ratio thereby raising pH and making the water base (alkaline).
Putting it another way; KH (carbonate hardness) is caused by metals combined with a form of alkalinity. KH (or Alkalinity, which is the more technically correct term) is the capacity of water to neutralize acids and is caused by compounds such as carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxide, and sometimes borate, silicate, and phosphate. In contrast, noncarbonate hardness (GH) forms when metals combine with anything other than alkalinity.
Carbonate hardness is sometimes called temporary hardness because it can be removed by boiling water. GH (noncarbonate hardness) by comparison cannot be broken down by boiling the water, so it is also known as permanent hardness.

Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate HCO3-), is often used for KH, Sodium Bi-Carbonate will buffer at 8.0 to 8.2. Just a little Sodium Carbonate will absorb free H+ ions, and this causes alkalinity (which is the lack of H+ ions).
To stop the Sodium Carbonate ions from consuming too much H+ and to keep a pH of 7.0 we need to restrict the amount of Baking Soda used, as it is always looking for H+ ions to consume. This is why I prefer using products that not only contain sodium carbonates (or sodium bi carbonates), but the proper ratios of other minor elements such as calcium and magnesium. Sea Chem Buffers; Marine, Malawi, Victoria and to a lesser degree; aragonite, Seachem Cichlid Salts and Mineral Blocks are examples of preferred methods for KH maintenance.

Crushed Coral/Aragonite
Aragonite or crushed coral is sometimes employed for KH and GH stabilization, however aragonite and crushed coral (as with Wonder Shells) only stabilize KH (they are poor buffers, especially crushed coral) and should not be used in place of a true KH buffer such as Sea Chem Alkaline Buffer when true buffering is necessary due to fluctuating KH or pH whatever the cause may be.

Crushed Coral is primarily made up of Calcium Carbonates (CaCO3) and has VERY LITTLE bicarbonates while Aragonite is of similar make up, but has a much better surface area for dissolving of minerals making it a better choice of the two.
Aragonite is useful at stabilizing a higher kH of around 240 ppm or more, which is the minimum KH (alkalinity) needed for Marine Aquariums, but does not respond to changes rapidly enough when carbonic acids are produced at a rapid rate in an aquarium (usually a high bio load or large amounts of organic mulm will cause this). Even in marine aquariums with aragonite, this may not always be enough to maintain a proper KH (alkalinity) level, especially in tanks high bio loads and without adequate water changes (even skimming can remove some elements). What Crushed Coral are better for is necessary minerals and in the case of Aragonite, it generally has a few more minerals in higher concentrations such as the important mineral (for corals), Strontium.
HOWEVER it often takes copious amounts of acids to free these minerals and what little bicarbonates/carbonates that are available (which is where a calcium reactor is helpful in marine aquariums), which is why use of these “gravels” (technically these are coral skeletons) should be used in a “Filter Bag” to “release” these minerals when used in Freshwater, especially African Cichlid aquaria. The use of a filter bag in a high flow area will improve the dissolution rate releasing more minerals and allowing for some buffering, although again I will point out not a lot due to the mineral make up of crushed coral (Aragonite will do a slightly better buffering job when employed in a filter bag).

This said, despite the popular use of crushed coral for pH/KH control in African Cichlids, it is a poor choice for this, especially in high bio load aquariums do to the FACT of its mineral make up (you CANNOT make a mineral appear out of nowhere that does not exist and that seems to be what many mistakenly believe when using crushed coral to increase KH/pH), this is an unfortunate “urban aquatic myth”.
The bottom line is that Crushed Coral or Wonder Shells MAY help maintain KH/pH in a low bio load aquarium, they are best used for minerals (GH) and even here the Wonder Shell is far superior do to the fact it dissolves at a much faster rate and reacts much quicker to chemistry changes in the water than does crushed coral.
Besides the simple mineral makeup of crushed coral, my own tests (especially in marine aquaria) show that its use to increase KH simply is poor!
MPrudent is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Hi thanks a lot for all that info, i'll check for test strips tomorrow until I can get the liquid test. So it is likely the plants that are affecting my KH..
My tank is fairly heavily planted, im still trying to ID them all, there are 5 species at the moment and I think 2 of the large ones are ludwigia glandulosa but I may be wrong.
I'm aware of the log scale use in pH which is why I was so alarmed at the huge drop.
What buffer would you advise to get a neutral to slightly acidic pH?
Most of the buffers seem to raise pH to about 8 or so..
Dojo is offline  
Old May 30th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Seachem makes an alkaline buffer and acid buffer that alot of people have had success with. They also make a product called equilibrium but that is more to replace minerals and increase GH when using RO water.
MPrudent is offline  
Old May 31st, 2009  
Moderator
 
Good morning. pH levels will fall over time. Here is a link you may find helpful. Enjoy your tank!
http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/107
aquarist48 is online now  
Old May 31st, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Nice info Mprudent!
Not much to add regarding the Kh/GH/Ph triangle. They are very intertwined. Plants will eat up the minerals in water pretty quickly. If you water is soft then you will have Ph drops. My Kh and Gh are very low and my Ph after off gassing the Co2 is 7.5. My Ph will drop to 6.4 within a week due to the plants using up the buffer.
Crushed coral really seems to help.
The only other thing to add is.....you said you wanted some drift wood. driftwood will lower the Ph of your water as well so be careful there.
Best Wishes,
Nate
Nate McFin is offline  
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