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Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Fishless Cycle and PH problem

Hi there!
Here is my problem:
I have been running into stalling on my cycle(fishless) which has been going on for a month. Things seemed to be going ok and now have stopped. I testede my pH a couple days ago and it was at or below 6 using API liquid test. The color was actually more yellow than the 6 which resembles cream soda. I was reading that the cycle will stall if the PH gets too low. So I tested my water from the tap (again) and it had a PH of 6.8. GREAT! Sooo I did a water change and tested the water next day and back to under 6!
I read some more and found to get actual PH I should aerate water from the tap for 24 hours. Guess what PH after 24 hours was 7.6!
I have not tested for GH and KH yet but I will be picking up those tests today to see what kind of buffering problems I may have if any. I know PH can get weird during cycle but something seems fishy (so to speak) any ideas what might be going on? Decorations may be helpful....Shale rock (which would raise PH if anything, correct?) Two sword plants which could raise CO2 levels in the AM but tests done PM after alot of light through the day have remained the same. Also I have a Penguin HOB filter moving plenty of water as well as airstones to increase aeration. The tank is a twenty gallon cube so footprint isn't huge which would also require more aeration (correct??).
IDEAS Thanks, Nate
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
what are you using to cycle with ? and also, higher temps speed things up alot ...so without fish, id crank that bad boy up to 86 or so...and dont do water changes with a fishless cycle..it only stalls the process
Shawnie is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
honestly i'm not sure, that seems like a lot of fluctuations. 6.8 is a good pH if you can keep it there somehow and 7.6 is okay too, but i would try to get through your cycle first and then see if it stabilizes. whatever you do, just make sure that you try to keep your pH as stable as possible. most fish can adapt to a wide range of pH and it's more stressful to them to change it than to just let them acclimate and leave it as it is.
agabr123 is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
It is true that pH can be lower in the morning than PM but that is with livestock which will produce CO2 in the tank (CO2 in water , some in form of Carbonic Acid).It seems too far apart w/o livestock.

It is true that establishing bacteria colony may stall/even loose what you already established in low pH. But try perfoming few more testing to confirm what you obtained so far is true before doing anything (like water changes, raising pH, etc).
cerianthus is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Thanks for the replies.
I knew I was going to forget a little info! Temp is at 83 and I have been using stresscoat + for conditioner.
I was unable to find the GH/KH liquid test today. One LFS had an API liquid test but the lot number had a manufacture date of 3/ 2005. I wasn't sure what the expiration on this test is but it seemed to be pushing it. I did test using some strips that I had and I will post the results as a matter of interest only as I know that they are pretty innacurate.
The glass of aerated tap and the tank tested identical with the strips @ --- GH-40 KH-0. this may confirm the lack of buffers but I will wait until I can get a liquid test to make sure.
Ironically though I (before I read NOT to make any changes ) added a small handful of crushed coral in a media bag into the filter. I rinsed and rinsed and rinsed some more then dipped into stresszyme treated water for awhile to detox the stuff. I added it to my filter for about 3 hours while I was gone this morning and my PH from the tank (which tested at 6 or less several times) is now at 6.8. I have removed (after I read the post above!) the coral for the time being.
After I tested the PH I was interested in checking the ammonia level which dropped from a slightly darker 1 down to a solid .5 in about 4 hours time. nitrite is unchanged at 2. nitrate is the same between 5 and 10.
I guess I will just hang tough for now and keep an eye on the things until I can get the test kit but for now it looks as though ammonia is processing still which is better than the no change I have had for the last week and a half!

EDIT: glass Ph still tests at 7.6 (and remains 1/2 full )

Last edited by Nate McFin; February 2nd, 2009 at 04:46 PM.
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
your ph is fine...dont worry about the gh or kh for now...crank up that heater a bit more..that will speed things up...you dont need any condtioners n such as you shouldnt be doing water changes...great thing to not buy the test kit with a 2005 date..smart move...what are you cycling with tho? just the stress zyme ?
Shawnie is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
LOL forgot something else!! Ace brand Ammonia 10% is what I am using. I started out the first week with fish food but it got horribly messy so I made a LONG drive to the nearest ACE and picked up the ammonia. Much Much Much cleaner! I am getting alot of what I presume are Diatoms though which may have been caused by the fish food. I guess its all food for the oto's once I am able to finaly get cycled!
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
diatoms is good ...its "new tank" bacteria..once you get the test kit, you will know for sure what your next step will be...im not sure how you figure how much ammonia to add without one tho to get a true reading of your ammonia n such...for all you know, you could be there!!
Shawnie is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Sorry Shawnie I do have an API liquid master kit just not the GH/KH liquid test. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have been trying to keep the ammonia level between 1 and 2 PPM since I started getting nitrites and nitrates. I was keeping it at 4-6 ppm before
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 3rd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Slowly but surely, you are getting there!! As far as KH and GH, dont be too conerned yet.

You can wait until tank is stocked and see how pH swings if at all.
cerianthus is offline  
Old February 4th, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
UPDATE:
after adding the crushed coral for a few hours and then removing my PH had gone up to 6.8 from less than 6. It held steady for about 2 days and has slowly dropped back down to 6.2-6.4
When the PH went up the tank started processing ammonia again (about 2ppm in 12 hours now) which was great to see. The nitrites have begun to climb again but very very slowly. No change in the nitrates.
I am going to leave the PH alone for now and wait to see if it drops down below 6 again. I will see what happens with the cycle when I do this. It seems to me that the bacteria do prefer a higher PH! I am not in a hurry and I am finding the PH and the cycle to be very interesting. I will post new results from the experiment as they come in!
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 4th, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
I dont think they prefer high pH. I think nitrifying bacteria can not tolerate low low pH.
Learned that when pH crashes in well established tank, tend to see NH3, NO2 creeping up.
Lots of people make/made mistakes when this occur by just raising ph, even gradual increase, w/o checking for NH3, NO2. As More ammonia will shift from nion toxic form (ammonium ion; NH4+ ) to toxic Ammonia (NH3).
Should always control NH3, NO2 via water changes and controlled feeding (skip feeding)
before manually/chemically raise pH. When water changes are done, your new/tap water is higher in pH than tank water. Thus w/ water changes, both NH3, NO2 will be reduced and at the same time pH may be up to point where bacteria will/can become active to perform their duty. Once NH3, NO2, is under control, should add chemical/Crush Coral to raise the pH to desired level.
It seems your water has very low buffering ability. If deired pH is @ 7, try adding Neutral Regulator(buffer formulated to keep pH @7) ONLY when you brought pH to 7 w/ chemical(sodium Bicarb; pure baking soda w/o any additives)or with lots of water changes.
If desired pH is 6.5, I believe buffer for that pH is on the market)
Remember nothing last forever since these buffers are constanty being exhausted battling pH drop. Need to monitor regularly to avoid pH crash.

Crushed Coral (will raise and buffer but water becomes hard)) work as well but be careful with fish requiring soft water (discus, etc)
cerianthus is offline  
Old February 5th, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
great reply Cerianthus! Shows me I still I have some reading to do on the subject!Thanks for the great input!
Well this morning results were good and bad. The good news is my Ammonia is processing very fast and the nitrites reached the bottom of the card. Nitrates crept up to 10 as a result of the nitrites improving. So things are well on their way!
The bad? Well my PH is continuing to drop....yesterdays 6.2-6.4 is now 6 or just above 6. Definate yellow color to it. I also noticed (see my other thread) some what appear to be snails that hatched. They must have come in on my sword plants. Ah well...live and learn! Since my PH experiment has already been done I will see if I cant find the Neutral regulator you mentioned or add some crushed coral back to the filter to raise things back up if it drops below 6.
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 6th, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
PH back to under 6 this morning. Ammonia was not processing nearly as well and only dropped .5 over 12 hours. I couldn't find the PH regulator locally so I put the bag of crushed coral back into the filter. I will check it this afternoon when I get home from work and pull it if its back up to par with my tap at 6.8.
On the bright side my Nitrates are topping out at 40 or 80 now! I must be color blind to reds as I can see 0 difference between the colors on the bottom of the nitrate chart. LOL No matter how much I squint or twist my head its all fire engine red.
Nate McFin is offline  
Old February 10th, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
DAY 36:
Still at it! I think I stalled again. The PH has been up and down since the start of the cycle and was down to 6.2 or so today. The Ammonia which was dropping pretty good for awhile has stopped again.1 ppm last night and 1 ppm tonight without adding any ammonia during that time. The nitrites have peaked and continue to go down. They are now a strange very light purple that doesn't really match up with any of the colors on the chart. So I think they are between 0 and .5 NOT blue but not really purple.
The ammonia stopping again is a little bothersome and I am not sure if there is anything I need to do or not...if they stop do I risk having my nitrites stop also?? ***sigh***
I am also having a green water and bad snail problem....at least I haven't killed any fish and my plants are looking great. LOL
Any ideas where to head with this?? Is it time for TSS??
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