armadillo

It's actually really sad. I feel guilty now.

Jacko

Yeah, I don't wonder now why so many die in transport and after getting into the dealers tanks. Sad.

bhcaaron

And yet, people keep buying the cheaper ones instead of the little more expensive tank bred ones. THAT's sad. (with fish and animals in general I suppose)

Isabella

I didn't press "play" because I don't even want to watch it (unfortunately I always cry watching bad things being done to animals, so I can't watch this, sorry). I know that without catching wild fish of all kinds, we wouldn't have this hobby today, wouldn't have our fish and fish tanks, and so on ... But still, I don't like the idea of catching these poor fish and trying to "domesticate" them. Fish living even in the biggest fish tanks and best possible conditions provided by us, will NEVER have the kind of life they'd have in nature. If stopping catching ALL fish in the wild would mean the absolute end of the aquatic hobby, I'd go with it, even though I love my fish very much. But loving also means being able to let go. That's what I'd be willing to do for my fish, and for all fish living in captivity. But knowing human beings ... this will never happen for poor animals, as long as humans exist.

bhcaaron

Actually Isabella, nothing cruel happens in the video other than fishies being taken from their home. There is no mistreating of them at all. They are simplly caught in a net, but in a BIG plastic bag, like the one's you get a the fish shop, but, bigger, filled with pond water, or lake or river, what ever that was.

Isabella

Exactly ... BEGING TAKEN AWAY FROM HOME that they'll never see again, plus MOST of them will die on their way to the "civilized world" , or while in some pet shop, or while in the hands of some inexperienced fish keepers.

Fish that have been bred in captivity have never tasted the freedom of the wild, so when they're bing kept in tanks - as they always have been - they don't know what they're missing. The fish that have been born and raised in the wild, will feel a huge change and shock when caught and forced to live in small tanks, which are NOTHING like their wild homes in nature

bhcaaron

Yeah, I know. Can't argue much there.

Chief_waterchanger

Sorry, but I must disagree with Isabella on this point.

Under the mentality of, "Fish that were captive bred don't know what they're missing" it kinda sounded like you were justifying that over catching wild ones, that would mean keeping slaves would be alright as long as you bred them yourselves, so that they never knew freedom?

Also, we could argue that fish in captivity don't have to worry about predators unless we choose for them to, and they have the worry of too much food in most fishkeeper's tanks rather than not enough, as they probably face in the wild, at times. So under that arguement we could say they have it easier in captivity, much the same way animals in zoos do, if they are not abused.

I understand what you mean though, in a Utopia the fish would roam freely and never be eatten, never suffer from not enough food, never suffer from disease, etc.

Tom

I agree, the fish we have(most of them) have never had to deal with a larger fish trying to eat them(unless we make it so) and they most likely get better meals with us then they do in the wild.

But on a different note, imagine how cool that would be to just go outside and catch a huge net of these little fish and put them in a huge tank and watch them all school like they do.
Tom

Jacko

I completely understand your point, it isn't like all fish live in a wonderful pond full of vibrant plants, they all get along and there is a beutiful rainbow stretching over their water. Nor do they volunteer themselves for a ride on a magical unicorn to the LFS's around the world. It might be sad that they get removed from their natural habitat but otocinclus are abundant and from past experience people know not to overfish.

Truly the ones that survive have a better life in a clean vibrant aquarium than stuck always watching their back and hoping no bigger fish sneaks up on them.

Also just to say, they did drop a few on the rocks while plopping them into the bag.

Tom

Are you sure we have learned to stop overfishing?
Tom

Jacko

Fair enough, we might not have but most coastal areas that provide wild fish do know not to becuase of economy.
We might have but soon enough we should...

bhcaaron

Wow! This thread went SO another direction I was not at all expecting. Back to the topic of where they have a better life. First of all, let me remind everyone THEY ARA ANIMALS! Yes, they deserve good lives too, but, stop talking about them as if they actually "knew" anything. They are not human. (I'm sure I'll get flack on that one, but, oh well. I'll take it one at a time I suppose, understand also, that in a short reply I won't be able to explain my full view)

2nd
I remember these kids I saw a long time ago while visiting my grandfather. My mom and I were taking a stroll and we saw a group of kids, about five or six of them. They were playing around having fun. They were, probably, the most impoverished kids I have EVER seen. Sad little houses, but you know what, they were not sad little HOMES! They may not have had the best life or been protected from every danger, but, MY GOD were they ever happy and smiling. I would have never known, just by their smile, that they were missing anything. In much the same way, animals in the wild may not have a more comfortable life as in our homes, but, like I said, they don't KNOW. Unless someone has been able to communicate with one of them (if so seek medical help) I don't think any one of them can TELL us they were actually happier in our home. No matter how you look at it, they are still animals in CAPTIVITY. If you want to look at it from human perspective, a poor life free is better than a rich captive life.

COBettaCouple

yea, kinda pathetic the lack of respect for life the collectors have.. the attitude carries right on thru to the pet stores.

armadillo

And us. It's us who keep the trade going.

armadillo

Aaron I had no idea that the wild-caught ones were cheaper. I figured what with transport/tranquilisers/food.

bhcaaron

So I've been reading on every book and site I go to. I guess the thought is, and I get it, more money is spent on electricity, food and supplies to raise one than to just buy wild.

COBettaCouple

the fish we find around here are so many generations removed from the wild and it's not so much catching wild fish that is bad, but overcollecting or callous collecting like that vid are the bad thing. if there was just a respect for life, we could all still have our pet fish to love and leave the natural environment intact with wild populations thriving.

MrWaxhead

In the end, if my fish were wild caught or tank breed, I just try to provide a natural looking and healthy home for them. In some ways tank bred fish coming to a healthy planted tank will be happy to basically have a upgrade. Wild caught fish, will granted not have the freedom or vast diversity of there natural habitat. But I can at least try to mimic it as best as I can, and even though I will come no where close to what nature provides for them, I can provide one thing (saftey). Because as beautiful and diverse as there home may have been, they would have simply been a step in the food chain, in my tanks they are kings of the food chain, every last single one in the tank has no fear of sudden inhalation. And I do everything I can to provide a long healthy life for them.

COBettaCouple

good points!

armadillo

I rationalise it that way too, but when I dwell on it, I feel bad. I mean if we didn't buy the fish, then there wouldn't be a callous trade. I hadn't really stopped to think that my love for fish could have a negative impact.

I'll definitely be more aware of wild-caught vs. home-bred, and I'll favor home-bred where I possibly can. That's a contribution I can make, I guess.

TiffanyLuv

I'm sorry to say you're giving these fish "WAY TOO MUCH" credit as far as thought process or memory is concerned. If I'm not mistaken they say goldfish have about a 30sec. memory (itty bitty brains).These aren't dolphins or even mammals. They know FOOD & SEX and we usually provide both and that makes them very Happy. Horrray for US...the fish lovers. Those of us who cry when we loose a fish or jump for joy at the site of eggs or fry. We go out of our way to make the best home for our finned friends. Those in the wild usually lead a kinda desperate life,,always looking for food or fighting for sex. I prefer tank breed for obvious reasons of disease issues and the fact that it doesn't affect the wild population, but as long as wild caught is being done legally, I don't really feel it's cruel. Now talk about mammals and I take a completely different approach.

armadillo

Hi Tiffany. Actually, it's been proven that goldfish are really quite intelligent (check out fishschool.com). They're among the most intelligent fish. But discus are really smart, and so are bettas. And my mollies are really quite smart too, come to think of it.

And I don't think you need to be a scient being to feel discomfort or suffering. Am not saying they're nostalgic. Am just saying that they feel stress and anxiety when we stretch their domestic living conditions too far from conditions on their natural environment, just like most creatures.

TiffanyLuv

I've not followed the science end of it, but I honestly can't see them remembering or being nostalgic about home. I would hope that once they've gotten to one of our loving tanks they would take it for what it is...an ample supply of food and no predators to hunt them down. I'm not referring to the actual treatment of the fish, I'm saying that we shouldn't feel sad that we've bought them or to think about giving up a hobby we enjoy because of the fish that are caught in the wild. Also, the unfortunate thing with the wild is that we have encrouched and are continuing to do so at an alarming rate, their wild is probably either being erradicated or polluted. I believe we give them a better home with love and attention. I don't think fish are sensless, but I really don't believe they have emotions to the extent of missing the wild.

armadillo

But that's precisely what I'm saying. That they're not nostalgic. They don't miss the wild as such.

bhcaaron

Yayy! Someone I very much agree with!

Umm... I think she meant sentient being.

TiffanyLuv

Fish go thru stress with any change, obviously the rougher the handling the more stress which can kill the fish. I found a neat product made by Jungle called "Bag Buddies". You put (1) tab in the bag at the fish store and it calms the fish and airates the water. It does turn the water a tinge of blue but really seems to help in the transition. The fish are really relaxed while you float them in the tank and don't bounce off the walls. Just a bit of info if you weren't already aware. I had an excellent store that used the product, but hadn't seen it anywhere else, so I bought a bottle and take somewith me when I plan on buying some fish (the store that used it, closed) I guess they were loosing money trying to run the store as humane as possible. Our world! It can be used with fresh or salt water but not on feeder fish. Any questions there's a #1-800-357-7104 or goto www.jungletabs.com

COBettaCouple

fish have been proven to have memories much longer than 30 seconds. they're able to remember things weeks or months later. ours remember fav. places to sleep, what the food container looks like, what to do when i clean the tanks and do water changes, they even remember the things we do before ever bringing food out as a sign of a meal coming up or what the VitaChem bottle means for them. the short memory is one of the many old fish myths that veternary science is disproving.

bhcaaron

TiffanyLuv,
I can only imagine drugs are in use. I'm sure it must be safe, but, also not normal. Have you ever noticed side effects? I know chemicals affect the fish's health, have your fishes lasted as long as normal for aquarium specimens of the same specie?

bhcaaron

btw, the link you posted took me to a tanning products page.