MrWaxhead

In the end, if my fish were wild caught or tank breed, I just try to provide a natural looking and healthy home for them. In some ways tank bred fish coming to a healthy planted tank will be happy to basically have a upgrade. Wild caught fish, will granted not have the freedom or vast diversity of there natural habitat. But I can at least try to mimic it as best as I can, and even though I will come no where close to what nature provides for them, I can provide one thing (saftey). Because as beautiful and diverse as there home may have been, they would have simply been a step in the food chain, in my tanks they are kings of the food chain, every last single one in the tank has no fear of sudden inhalation. And I do everything I can to provide a long healthy life for them.

COBettaCouple

good points!

armadillo

I rationalise it that way too, but when I dwell on it, I feel bad. I mean if we didn't buy the fish, then there wouldn't be a callous trade. I hadn't really stopped to think that my love for fish could have a negative impact.

I'll definitely be more aware of wild-caught vs. home-bred, and I'll favor home-bred where I possibly can. That's a contribution I can make, I guess.

TiffanyLuv

I'm sorry to say you're giving these fish "WAY TOO MUCH" credit as far as thought process or memory is concerned. If I'm not mistaken they say GoldFish have about a 30sec. memory (itty bitty brains).These aren't dolphins or even mammals. They know FOOD & SEX and we usually provide both and that makes them very Happy. Horrray for US...the fish lovers. Those of us who cry when we loose a fish or jump for joy at the site of eggs or fry. We go out of our way to make the best home for our finned friends. Those in the wild usually lead a kinda desperate life,,always looking for food or fighting for sex. I prefer tank breed for obvious reasons of disease issues and the fact that it doesn't affect the wild population, but as long as wild caught is being done legally, I don't really feel it's cruel. Now talk about mammals and I take a completely different approach.

armadillo

Hi Tiffany. Actually, it's been proven that goldfish are really quite intelligent (check out fishschool.com). They're among the most intelligent fish. But discus are really smart, and so are bettas. And my mollies are really quite smart too, come to think of it.

And I don't think you need to be a scient being to feel discomfort or suffering. Am not saying they're nostalgic. Am just saying that they feel stress and anxiety when we stretch their domestic living conditions too far from conditions on their natural environment, just like most creatures.

TiffanyLuv

I've not followed the science end of it, but I honestly can't see them remembering or being nostalgic about home. I would hope that once they've gotten to one of our loving tanks they would take it for what it is...an ample supply of food and no predators to hunt them down. I'm not referring to the actual treatment of the fish, I'm saying that we shouldn't feel sad that we've bought them or to think about giving up a hobby we enjoy because of the fish that are caught in the wild. Also, the unfortunate thing with the wild is that we have encrouched and are continuing to do so at an alarming rate, their wild is probably either being erradicated or polluted. I believe we give them a better home with love and attention. I don't think fish are sensless, but I really don't believe they have emotions to the extent of missing the wild.

armadillo

But that's precisely what I'm saying. That they're not nostalgic. They don't miss the wild as such.

bhcaaron

Yayy! Someone I very much agree with!

Umm... I think she meant sentient being.

TiffanyLuv

Fish go thru stress with any change, obviously the rougher the handling the more stress which can kill the fish. I found a neat product made by Jungle called "Bag Buddies". You put (1) tab in the bag at the fish store and it calms the fish and airates the water. It does turn the water a tinge of blue but really seems to help in the transition. The fish are really relaxed while you float them in the tank and don't bounce off the walls. Just a bit of info if you weren't already aware. I had an excellent store that used the product, but hadn't seen it anywhere else, so I bought a bottle and take somewith me when I plan on buying some fish (the store that used it, closed) I guess they were loosing money trying to run the store as humane as possible. Our world! It can be used with fresh or salt water but not on feeder fish. Any questions there's a #1-800-357-7104 or goto www.jungletabs.com

COBettaCouple

fish have been proven to have memories much longer than 30 seconds. they're able to remember things weeks or months later. ours remember fav. places to sleep, what the food container looks like, what to do when i clean the tanks and do water changes, they even remember the things we do before ever bringing food out as a sign of a meal coming up or what the VitaChem bottle means for them. the short memory is one of the many old fish myths that veternary science is disproving.

bhcaaron

TiffanyLuv,
I can only imagine drugs are in use. I'm sure it must be safe, but, also not normal. Have you ever noticed side effects? I know chemicals affect the fish's health, have your fishes lasted as long as normal for aquarium specimens of the same specie?

bhcaaron

btw, the link you posted took me to a tanning products page.

MrWaxhead

I strongly believe fish do have memories / memory. I don't know to what level but I know they do. I know I have been trying to get a pair of white skirts and a a trio of colombian blue reds out of my 50g for some time to re home them in a tank with more of there own kind. And if I am preparing food, they are out in the open, if I have a net in my hand, they are gone so deep into my plants or cave systems, that I would have to dismantle my scape to dig them out. I don't even have to put it in the tank, they see it and they are gone.

My fish also behave differently depending on who is in the room, when its just me they are calm, if my son is in the room they are more on edge. He at times is bolting around the room and it spooks them, and even when he is calm they seem to see him as the person who may startle them. They do settle down once he is calm in the room for a bit, but when he first comes in the room the cards etc, pack up and school for a bit, then slowly go back into there normal cruising.

They also seem to know the difference between regular feedings and treat feeds, if I am preparing live brine or thawing brine or bloodworms, they all get very ready for a feed, if its a regular feed they seem to know that the container I am opening is regular food, and while they are in waiting for a feed mode, its a different kind of behavior (much more relaxed yet still in I am going to get feed mode). So they must know / remember the difference between a container of food and a prep cup for treats.

Whether they retain memories of the wild or other tanks in there past, I am not sure but they do have memory so its possible that it could go deeper then simple memory. But regardless, I as I said earlier just want to try to make there home as nice as possible.

I also try to keep my water parameters to match there native parameters (through fish selection to match my parameters, not altering my water to suit the fish I want) IE I have soft on the acidic side water so I choose fish that came from those settings even if they were captive breed, as I truely believe fish are native to certain settings for a reason. So why should I try to make them adapt to a parameter that they are not native too. Fish are native to certain waters for a reason, they thrive in those settings or you would find them in other settings in nature. Not saying getting fish used to other settings is horrid or trying to alter your water for certain fish is horrid. I just like to keep things as simple and natural as possible.

armadillo

And hurray to that, MrWaxhead. I totally agree with all your points.

I also observed that they associate quite a lot. Like they always follow me around. Sometimes I don't even notice. I have a few tanks next to each other and sometimes I'll look away from the tank am currently looking at, and there are all my fish, checking me out to see what good thing am going to bring to their lives now (my mollies. They're adorable). One day, I let a guest hand-feed them (after washing his hands, of course !). He jumped on contact with the fish, and startled them. Now they get more edgy if it's not my hand.

My bettas also know when it's treat food and when it's more boring food.

I also think that the more remote the conditions in the tank from their wild conditions, the more stress on the fish. Again, not a question of nostalgia, but still, affecting the fish' comfort.

armadillo

Oh cool. That sounds really good, Tiffany. I use acclimol in the bag when I've just bought fish. Some of my LFS do too, but I just bring it with me if I think of buying fish.

[quote=TiffanyLuv]Fish go thru stress with any change, obviously the rougher the handling the more stress which can kill the fish. I found a neat product made by Jungle called "Bag Buddies". You put (1) tab in the bag at the fish store and it calms the fish and airates the water. It does turn the water a tinge of blue but really seems to help in the transition. The fish are really relaxed while you float them in the tank and don't bounce off the walls. Just a bit of info if you weren't already aware. I had an excellent store that used the product, but hadn't seen it anywhere else, so I bought a bottle and take somewith me when I plan on buying some fish (the store that used it, closed) I guess they were loosing money trying to run the store as humane as possible. Our world! It can be used with fresh or salt water but not on feeder fish. Any questions there's a ... [end quote]

armadillo

Ooooops. Doh! Yes, Aaron, you're right. Scient!?

Chief_waterchanger

Tranquilizers such as 'bag buddies' I'm sure could be useful as long as used properly. However, the fish auctions I go to, I won't buy fish that are being treated with 'bag buddies' if at all possible. (If it is an uber-rare fish that I won't see again I will suck it up, but if not I won't.) If the proper dosage is not administered to the bag of fish it can be deadly to the fish. Just like tranquilizers to humans I suppose, they slow the heart rate and response times. Too much and the heart rate would be slowed beyond a safe level.

That is just my personal experiences of bad times with 'bag buddies' and why I choose not to use the product. Others may have found the happy balance and feel safe using it, more power to them if they have.

TiffanyLuv

I haven't noticed any problems at all. I make sure there's plenty of water in the bag (it says 1 tab per gal I think...not reading lable currently). I started using it after I had 2 angel fish go into shock and died in my tank. I use about (10) tabs in my 140gal tank to calm everyone down when I do a major (40 gal) vacuum. So far, so good. The only reason I use it in the tank is 'cause the silver dollars broke a heater in the past. I do the vacuum about every 3-5 months...so they're not constantly under the influence LOL