almostthere002

Ok...I think I made some mistakes. I lost 4 fish this weekend and I feel really disappointed. I have had a freshwater tank since I was 8 so about 22 years of freshwater. I have been reading about saltwater forever (3 or 4 years) and I finally thought I knew enough to start one. So I did and I dont feel like I know anything about it anymore. Here's what happened...I bought and set up a fish only 56 gallon almost cube shaped aquarium. Through advice in books, websites and pet store I was told that LR is not necessary in a fish only tank. I was told that the only way the tank would cycle is to put green chromis in there and they would be fine and live. But out of the 4 I put in there I only have one little beautiful survivor. I have been watching the water quality constantly and it has never changed. Temp is about 77F, SG 1.019 (pet store said that SG was good for a fish only tank), pH 8.3 to 8.4, ammonia 0, Nitrites 0 and nitrates 0. I even checked my water metals and nothing. But I lost a fish on Thursday night and two yesterday. My little one left is still eating and appears healthy but that doesnt mean anything. The other 3 stopped eating and died shortly after. I know cycling with fish is bad but the pet store assured me that it needed to be done this way and that the fish were hardy. The thing I dont understand is that all my levels are fine. I know the pH is on the high side but they said that ws ok. I checked the fish for signs of desease and I didnt see any. I feel so awful that these fish died. Why do you think they died if my water was fine? Could it be because my tank didnt cycle yet even though the water quality was good?

Does anyone have any other ideas for cycling a fish only tank without LR? I read something about shrimp from the grocery store If my last fish dies I am not buying anymore until the tank is cycled. I might just convert the tank to freshwater because I dont want to kill anymore fish.

The fourth death was my Bruiser...big loss...he was my goldfish that got pretty big. the kids and I have loved this fish forever...he died of old age we had him for a few years. Funeral/burial is tonight...

Red1313

that sucks
I don't know much about saltwater set ups but isn't there a salt-water bio spira?
Hope someone more familiar with saltwater can help you out.
Good Luck.

HN1

Sorry for your losses.

The pet store fed you some really bad info there I'm afraid. You can cycle without LR, but it can also be done WITHOUT fish. The grocery store shrimp is the way I went. Just make sure it's raw and preferably (if you can) organic. Just add to tank, monitor levels, and watch the spikes. When both Ammonia and nitrite hold at 0 and nitrate begins to appear, you'll be ready to begin sloooowly stocking. I found that SW isn't necessarily "harder" than FW, but patience is a lot more valuable! Good luck!

almostthere002

Thanks for the info. I still have one green Chromis left, well this morning...but I doubt he will be ok when I get home. If all my levels were at zero why do you think this may have happened? If my last fish goes then I will put in the shrimp...at least I cant kill him.

almostthere002

I also read about adding ammonia. Which do you think is better? And when do you take the shrimp out?

HN1

You can dose pure ammonia as well. The shrimp cycling method just appealed to my lazy side. lol

Reading back through your post, I'm curious. What are you running for filtration? Media and filter? The SG looks low to me even for a fish only setup, but I've only done a reef so I can't say for sure. I've always read FOWLRs were run around 1.022 - 1.024.

almostthere002

I have a hang on the tank type filter with carbon, sponge and bio media in it. It's supposed to give me all three kinds of filtration for now until I decide to upgrade it. I always read that the SG should be higher but I called a saltwater petshop and they said the SG can be anywhere from 1.014 to 1.023. They said 1.019 is perfect for a FO tank so I left it alone in hopes to reduce the stress on the fish or whatever is making them die. I will gradually increase the SG little by little because I have never read anything that suggested keeping it below at a minimum of 1.021. I have a protein skimmer too and an airstone. I have plans to convert it to a reef tank at some point but I wanted to start with something I thought was easier to get used to first and my funds were diminishing quickly as I am sure you can relate to when setting up a new system from scratch. At this point a giant goldfish tank sounds like the way I should go with this tank. But I have to say I love a good challenge and researching and problem solving and this is definatly giving me a good oppertunity to figure things out.

The shrimp idea seems a little easier to me too.

HN1

I could be wrong, but I think they gave you numbers for high end brackish. I've had my SG up to 1.028 after a prolonged topoff delay and all fish and inverts were fine. How did you acclimate the fish? Did the shop tell you or test their own water to confirm what they were in? Take your time and figure things out. Don't give up and get goldfish! lol

almostthere002

I acclimated by putting them in a container with bag water and slowly added a cup of water per every 5 mintues I think it was. I went to a better pet shop today and they were so helpful. Got home tonight and my little guy survived. Pet shop guy said that I probably overstocked but I still don't know why ammonia didnt spike. Maybe something is wrong with my test kit? Anyway, I added one pound of live rock (I know it's not much but I will add more as soon as I can afford it). He said that little by little I should build up my live rock and my salt. He suggested Right Now and a partial water change (very small) tomorrow to lower nitrates. I fed my little guy frozen brine shrimp and he went crazy. I think he loves me now Anyway, he seems happy he's been exploring and swimming up to me. My dreaded evening turned out to go really well. I set up my QT too. This was a lot of work this week but it is paying off because my fish is so cute. What do you try to keep your SG at? I am slowly letting water evaporate to bring up the SG and then I will do a partial water change with the same SG amount. Good plan?

HN1

The evaporation plan should work. I personally keep mine at 1.026, but it's a reef system. If it were FO, I'd shoot for 1.022 probably. How old / what type of test kit?

Glad to hear things are looking up and you found a good shop!

almostthere002

I bought the API liquid test kit for saltwater. I have test strips too but not to test the ammonia. They are hard to read sometimes so I use the liquid kit. My shop told me they will test my water for free anytime I want to bring it in so I think I might stop by weekly and have it looked at. I am there ALL the time lately anyway...lol. My kit was brand new about a week and a half ago. I bought it at Petco though and I havent had really good luck with the store by my house (they gave me bad advice) so maybe I should check the expiration date. It cannot be that simple.

I added another chem to my Qtank but I cannot remember the name off hand I will post it when I get home. Its more bacteria anyway but I was reading that I should put one fish in the Qtank to feed the bacteria. I have a small piece of live rock in that one now too. I still need to mess with the tank and test it tonight but I am afraid to add any fish anywhere now after what happened. Any suggestions on how long I should wait to add one to my empty Qtank and my 55 gal with one fish? The big tank has Right now added at 9pm last night and the 10 gal was treated about 10pm last night but I will post the chemical name when i get home.

Thanks for all your help on this.

almostthere002

Its called stabilize and it is cycling

Malinois1

Your salinity could be the problem. Although the fish can survive in SG 1.019. Chances are the LFS you bought them from had a significant higher SG. Changing salinity is done gradually over a period of time (days). Its possible the fish may have died due to the shock of different salinity ratings.

HN1

Others may disagree, but I think the "bacteria in a bottle" products are total BS. With the LR, unless it's completely cured, any resulting die off during curing will provide a small ammonia source for bacteria. Adding more would definitely help, but if you take it slow and steady I think you'll be fine.

almostthere002

On the live bacteria thing....I am totally new to this but I didnt notice any difference in my tanks last night. I am really not trying to rush the process I was just hoping to keep my fish alive. My nitrates and nitrites are still at zero and my ammonia is at .25 - .50 It's in the middle.

HN1

IMO and it's just my opinion, you'll be best served by keeping a watchful eye out and doing water changes as necessary. There's no magic bullet (or bottle of bacteria) that will get it stabilized. Based solely on how much you obviously care, I'm sure that you'll have a great tank before you know it. The hard part is being patient until you get there! I sat with a Box O' Algae for a couple months and had to fight with myself everyday not to mess with it. Keep testing and changing your water and it'll be fine.

almostthere002

Thanks for all your advice. I lost my last little green chromis last week. Hugely disappointing because I tried so hard for him. I will NEVER NEVER cycle a tank with fish again. I am so sorry I even took that advice. Anyway, the bottle of bacteria crashed my pH and caused more harm then it was worth. My big tank is cycling great and my hospital tank is cycling as well both wothout fish. That was a hard first lesson in SW but since there aren't any fish in either I am fixing the pH (it's coming back up on it's own as soon as I stopped treating it), bringing my SG up to 1.023 and letting the cycling process spike and do whatever it needs to do so I get it right. My daughter (8) is really enjoying watching the test tube colors change and it's been fun. I am about two weeks in to it and I am in no rush. Meanwhile I am saving up for a few more supplies I need/want and reading. I am a little nervous to bring another fish home but I am sure I will have better luck this time since the tank is cycled it wont have anything to do with luck.

I have read that I should buy Perculas in pairs...is adding these two fish too much for the system at first? I really do want to buy another green chromis too so I thought I might add him first since it's only one fish opposed to two. What's your stance on that?

reefdude

Sorry to hear about your fish! We are in the same situation sort of, I have been doing freshwater for years and decided to go with a reef aquarium. I just started cycling it on the 13th and it is a long, patience testing process from what I've read.
Anyway, I would add the green chromis first, let him get acclimated to the tank and then introduce the Percula pair. It would probably be good to wait a couple of weeks in between...

almostthere002

Thanks for the advice. That's what I was thinking too. I figure I will add one fish per month or two. Some might take longer because they arent cheap.

I was wondering about a clean up crew too. Some packages offer quite a few crabs and snails per package. Wont this spike the ammonia too? And should I add them before the green chromis or after?

BTW...for those who are following this post I am adding 45 lbs of live rock this Saturday if that helps answer this a little better. I also posted pics in my album of the tank now. More to come after I redo it with the LR.

kloseo

sorry for your loss, i too had probs when i first set up my saltwater, i would keep the salinity around 1.023 as yours was really low for most saltwater fish more of a 1.021 to 1.025 be careful changing the salinity to quickly or it will put fish in shock, temp is ok i keep mine at 78, ammonia would be a bad idea, you could get some nutrafin to add to your tank it adds active bacteria to the tank, also a little live rock would be a good idea, you dont have to go by the 1 lb per gallon, but it deffinitly would help, a protein skimmer is a good idea... but save up and invest in a good quality one because if you buy a cheap one, you will end up replacing it soon and end up spending the money anyway, also check your filters GPH it should be minimumun 5 tanks per hour so at a 55g that means minimum GH ph is 275, I try and cycle mine at around 10 to 12 tanks per hour
it really does make a difference on water quality

MizRamzi

I'm sooo sorry you lost so many fish. It's heart breaking for sure. Your on the right path now and that's what matters most. I was scared to add my first fish but after testing everyday for 2 weeks I finally felt good enough to add 1 fish. It's a Fire Fish and he/she's beautiful. My LR is starting to get beautiful colors and my CUC are doing their jobs with gusto! I just added my first frag of zoa! This is sooooooo exciting!!!

almostthere002

It was really heartbreaking and frustrating. After the loss of Lucky (my last green chromis) I ended up cycling both my tanks with brine shrimp and it worked great. Sure wish I new that before those poor 4 fish. I now have 2 occellaris clowns and one royal gramma in my display tank and one fire fish like yours in my QT. I am leaving him in there for about 3 weeks because the shop just got him in and I want to make sure he (or she) is healthy. So far so good. I am soooo glad I didnt quit. I got so discouraged but I knew I would be fine once I cycled it without fish. I cannot wait to add some coral but the lighting is expensive and I cannot afford it right now so I will have to wait. But I already put it on my Christmas list so maybe in Dec.

cerianthus

Absolutely! Stop wasting money on unnecessary (BS) products on the shelf.

Just keep in mind that many fish are still caught using cyanide where each individual fish will react differently depending on intake. Also how receiver on this end actually detox the fish, not just cyanide but from ammonia/nitrite accumulated in the tiny bag when shipped from where it was caught reaaly have tremendous effect on lngevity of wild s/w fish.

Can you imagine how they can catch these tiny damsels in quantity on the reef where fish will dash into crevices when danger aproaches other than chemical means. Unfortunate and sad but reality. So dont feel bad. Just have a patience and do best as you canwith one chromis.

It could also be exposure to low pH of water in the bag when transhipped across PACIFIC Ocean (LONG and long trip for fish to endure) where gills can be damages due to such exposure which may have CHRONIC EFFECT (fish dies for no reasons , well w/i our ability after few days/weeks/month later and/or right after munching on foods)) rather than acute effects.

Stop adding additives. I dont care what bottles says. For all I know these additives maybe the cause when not properly administered or even when properly administered.

Dont do Unnecessary water changes while cycling either. If it goes higher than .5, stop feeding too much. Just fast fish and net out any left over food.
Best option is LR or small amt of substrate form another (trustedn but not lfs)tank.

I would not mess with with SG at this point to raise it higher. If lfs was smart enough or had enough info on commercial level, should have kept lower than should be. I find at higher SG, higher chances of Cryptocaryon irritan/Amyloodium infestation and also not too healthy for fish unless fish was out of higher SG such as Red Sea and/or its vincinity.
If your SG is correct @ 1.019, I would leave it where it is.

Causing contant UNNECESSARY changes in water condition will definitely be more stressful to fish. What is pH of the tank? or did I miss that?

I am sorry for difficult you are experiencing but keep the chin up as you will surely get there.
I dont think lfs gave you bad ideas but rather old method of cycling fish tank. Believe me, we used to do this way for many many yrs and always had to give the fishes(Damsels/Chromis) back to lfs once become too big and cause havoc to other more desirable tankmates. Perhaps not as much Cyanide was used 20-25 yrs ago.

Hope all goes well.