Semantic Drift

So, on my way home from work today, I made a detour by a local stream that I'd never investigated before - at parts, it's a good ten feet across and maybe three feet deep, so not too big. But anyway, I was looking for plants to put in my tanks. In one of the tributaries, though, I saw a huge clutch of frog eggs, and a bunch of tadpoles - hey cool, I thought, this stream is healthier than I previously thought. But then I realized, the entire stream was filled with tiny little fish fry. I couldn't resist trying my hand at snatching a couple, and came home with a bag of about fifteen.

It's actually really relaxing. Much better than rod-and-reel fishing, at least. You just have to sit there near a shallow section and wait for the fry to come by, then scoop them up with your Dixie cup, and dump them into your Wal-Mart shopping bag.

Anyway, I was then struck with an idea. That is, of what to do with all these fry, besides the fun of waiting for them to mature in order to discover what kind of fish they are.

The idea is this - a tank made entirely of wild-collected goods. That is, wild fish, plants, invertebrates (I snagged a few of the healthier looking pond snails, too), gravel, rocks, everything. I figure that aquariums are, in effect, facsimiles of the fishes' natural environment, so why not make it as realistic as possible?

Anyway, some questions that arose: How realistic should the tank be? For example, should one cloud the water to match the natural turbidity of the stream (I suppose using authentic stream bed gravel/sand would cause this)?

I mean, I guess with such a small tank (I'd use a 20 or 30, I reckon - not space for much more), the snails would take over fast, as they require such little space. Anyway, more research is needed - what eats snails in our local streams? And what eats the algae which covers the rocks? The snails seemed more interested in whatever dead organics there were in the gravel, than in the algae, so I might have to get an algae-eater or something which is non-local.

I mean, this idea needs some working-through. It just seems really cool to me.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas or questions or anything I'd be appreciative. The more minds, the better the end product will be, I think.

Semantic Drift

Oh, another idea that struck me - how well would the concept of "live rock" translate to freshwater? It seems like natural streams and creeks must have an ample supply of beneficial nitrifying bacteria, evidence being that there is stuff living in them. So, it seems then that using rocks and gravel from these sources would be a method of speeding up the nitrogen cycle. Has anyone tried this?

I realize the risks involved - snails will surely hitchhike, algae too, and it would probably be a vector for disease - but it still seems like something worth experimenting with.

Joy44

Hi, I don't really have much to offer by way of advice or ideas, just that when I was a kid my father often brought home tadpoles in the spring to put in our gold fish tank. We would watch them change and grow and when they were finally frogs we would release them into our pond. I know they wouldn't be happy to live in there for any length of time but it was interesting to watch them. Every wild creature that went into the tank only visited and then was let go again. We had cray fish and minnows in there at different times too.

sirdarksol

I was in a biology class once where we collected several local aquatic animals. We had tadpoles that we raised to frogs (if you're raising tadpoles, make sure there's a tight-fitting lid with absolutely no holes in the top. Frogs can climb glass like nothing, and they will get out.) We had crayfish. I think we had a baby sunfish for awhile. Like Joy said, we ended up releasing everything back into the wild.
Most of the little things that you catch are going to get pretty big in time, and you wouldn't be able to keep them forever. Still, it's an excellent idea and way to learn about local ecology.

Semantic Drift

I mean, I'd like to create something sustainable, or at least as sustainable as a tropical fish tank. And there are certainly some fish around here that don't reach more than a couple inches (some species of panfish (some little sunfish, etc.) that I know of, if nothing else; some of which have very nice coloration).

Maybe this is a project for when I have more experience tank-keeping, and also more disposable income to set up something which will really highlight the biodiversity of North Carolina. I am taking a class entitled "NC Freshwater Fishes" next year - maybe a chat with my professor would be in order.

Speaking of frogs, as a kid I had a tank with a couple of green tree frogs (Hyla cinerea) and green anoles (Anolis carolinensis). My frogs did breed, but the eggs never hatched.

Anyway, if I learn nothing else from this foray, I learned that my platys really seem to enjoy chasing these fry around the tank, and then eating only their tails. Wasteful ingrates is what they are.

sirdarksol

I would definitely talk to the professor about the fish. I've never heard of a sunfish that only stays a couple of inches, but I also live in a very different climate, so there may be types of sunfish that we don't have up here. It could be a location thing all around. I can only think of a few kinds of fish in the area that stay small, and most of them I don't believe are native. The majority of fish here end up getting pretty big, even if they start out really cute and tiny. Example, muskellunge fry are about the size of my pinkie, maybe even smaller. However, they grow into monsters that are several feet long and all muscle.

vin

It's important to know that just about anything you've found is most likely carnivorous and will eat meat and insects. No veggie based flakes for them!! Depending upon where you are, they could be trout, sunfish, bass....perch..Any number of species.

The bait and tackle store near me has a freshwater panfish tank. They've got small sunfish, largemouth bass, yellow perch, walleye and a crappie or two...They've set it up with simple sand substrate with small gravel, driftwood and native plants....The problem is, the smallest fish will get to be upwards of 5" in length while the bass and walleye will get upwards of 6-10lbs or more in just a few years.....And they've got them in a 100g.......They'll outgrow that in no time....If they don't eat each other first....

Shelby

Might want to be careful, It is illegal to harvest game fish. in Texas anyway, probably same in NC. I have thought these thought's myself. Would have to set up like chiclids. Large tank 55 gal. and 1 or 2 fish. of course would have to get some fry survive to identify.

vin

Good point...it's illegal in CT too without a permit....

Semantic Drift

I mean, I've got a freshwater fishing license. There may be, I guess, the issue that these fry probably do not meet the minimum length requirements...

Don't tell the game warden.

Shelby

Your secret is safe with me, I couldn't tell anyway. Let us know if some survive.

vin

If you read the rules of what is considered fishing it would spell out what is an isn't permissable. I think moving fry would be considered unpermissable......I won't tell the warden, but just don't get caught....There are steep fines and I think you can lose your fishing license.

sirdarksol

Vin's right. In most states, the transportation and keeping of live indigenous animals is forbidden. It's ok to kill the crows in your back yard. You just can't keep them as pets.
Part of the reason is that some people might think it's cool to stock a lake with a different type of fish. They move the fish around, and create huge imbalances in the ecosystem of the lake.
I don't, however, really know why you can't keep local animals as pets. For example, it's alright to keep a wild-caught European raven as a pet in America, but you can't keep an American raven as a pet. Go figure.

vin

Correct. The reason the transportation of live fish is illegal in most states is just that. They don't want a body of water that for example, has no large mouth bass to become popluated with that species because they could very well eat that body of water out of food sources for its natural habitants. Another rule of thumb - as bad as it may seem - is that the DEP strongly discourages the release of live bait such as alewives, shad and other baitfish into the bodies of water when you're done fishing. The reason is because these fish can and will multiply putting a strain on the natural food chain within these bodies of water. If you catch the bait there, that's one thing. But it you go to the bait shop for alewives and bring them to the lake to fish, releasing them at the end of the day is a big BIG no-no....And for good reason. Some lakes even prohibit the use of certain species of bait fish for that very reason.

This is also why many bodies of water are gas motor-free. These boats have bilge areas that can take on water which may contain weed seeds, plant roots, eggs of other species and other pests such as zebra mussells. They can be transported in the bilge of the boat and transplanted unintenionally into the other water bodies through the bilge pump....What can result is an ecological disaster.

Semantic Drift

Right right that all makes sense. The rule makes sense in general. I'm just saying I doubt it applies too much in my case. These fish are obviously not threatened in any way (there were literally thousands of them), they're going to be released to their native stream (if necessary), and I won't be fishing with them. So, in this case, I say "sucks" to rule of law.

Anyway, NC has no rules (that I can find) about keeping in captivity native fish, or about their release. There are creel, size, and other limitations on game fish, but non-game fish seem to have no regulations, besides some specific ones pertaining to counties or certain bodies of water or what-have-you. Just some creatures you can't catch, and some you can't sell, and some exotics that you can't own.

But it seems like it all depends upon what species of fish I have, whether or not I am allowed to keep it.

Joy44

It is more like "borrowing " a few fish. I would want to see what they were and watch them grow. Since I don't have any unidentified baby fry I will need to live vicariously through your posts! Fish on.

Good Luck with the avoiding the law thing!

vin

The thing is, you have no idea whether or not they are game fish.....So what you could very well be doing is harvesting fish illegally...That was the point I was trying to make....IMO, if in doubt leave it...I guess being a Cub Scout leader, that "Leave No Trace" thing is always in my head...I wasn't implying that you were intending to fish with them....I was just giving you examples of DEP laws....

Fish Fry

you should pay close attention to the speed of the water in the river or stream or what ever it is some need that current to force water over their gills.