emilai333

Oh, I can imagine being in the same room as all those rabbits. We had a hawk in my neighborhood for a while when I was younger and it killed a rabbit once... at the time we didn't know what it was and the neighbor boy was home alone... it scared him out of his wits and he ran over to our house. I am also familiar with the smell of rabbits; my brother and I each had one when we were little, but they were kept outside. Come to think of it, though, I'm glad squirrels are so abundant on campus, we have a hawk and if he were killing rabbits on a regular basis I don't think I'd be able to sleep at night. I don't mind seeing a few squirrel carcasses, at least squirrels die quietly.

Terry

We've got the hawks here too. I've never seen them get a squirrel but I've seen get birds in my back yard, and I hate that! I have a few feeders in back, and more than once a hawk has swooped down and grabbed a mourning dove. I even saw them get a robin once in the yard next door. I know the raptors need to eat just like everything else, but I just wish they'd do it where I don't have to witness it! On the other hand, if they want to pick off some of the squirrels that have found out how to empty some of my bird feeders that would be fine. And something to get rid of the huge racoons would be nice too, but anything big enough to do that would probably consider me a food source too!

Wow - we've really gotten off topic haven't we? Hopefully no one will get on our case talking about everything but mollies!

I sure wish we'd hear from Lola. I hope her fish are OK.

emilai333

Lol to keep it on topic... Mandarin is still doing really great. Wonder where Lola has gotten to?

I didn't do pre-vet because I can't stand the thought of euthanising the very much loved family pet. It doesn't bother me so much, however, to see a hawk get a squirrel, because that is nature's way. Now, if the hawk got the squirrel because the squirrel was lame because it got hit by a car but not killed, it gets more complicated. I am angry that the squirrel was killed because he wasn't in a natural situation; but I am not upset that it was eaten by the hawk. I am upset that he was hit by a car in the first place. The poor squirrel had to live a diminished life because of humans, and then get killed by a hawk that it may (or may not) have avoided if it were healthy. I value all life, both at the individual level and on the level of species continuation or even ecosystem maintenance; but I understand and also value deaths on the individual level that contribute to the functioning of the ecosystem. Roadkill is a horrible waste; deer hunting on the other hand should be encouraged in my area as deer are totally out of hand and in a natural setting would be headed for or have already hit a famine (not to mention the fact that they are not actually native to this area, they have migrated west in the past 200 years I think, following changes made by humans).

To return to the issue of fish; in your opinion is there a difference in the moral obligations of a fishkeeper who keeps the purely ornamental (in my opinion, fully domesticated) varieties of fish (fancy guppies, fancy goldfish, etc.); those who keep aquarium bred wild-type varieties (non-dyed wildtype tetras, for example); and even those who keep wild-caught fish (assume that the wild caught fish are common in their native habitat and few enough are removed that there is little to no impact on the system as a whole)?

lolagurl

o yea, ok lol..ic ouldnt find here but my mollie dalamtions name is snowflake. also i do not think it is in bad morals to keep fancy ornamental fish, that is like saying the pomeranian should be a 45 pound dog (which they once were ) and not a 5-10 pound dog. I think the only bad morals are taking a pretty fish not knowing anything about it...and then it dieing from neglect. Personally i would want a fancy guppy rather then a normal one (call that materialistic), but if i know how to take care of it, and have the equiptment why not.
I was really worried my mollie would suffer in a 2 gallon tank (i said it was a 5 gallon in other posts (not this one) cuz i was scared of being bom barded on) but hes doing really well. I have the lamp heater, and excellent filter, and i think its betterto be in my situation then to be in a situation with having one mollie in a 100 gallon tank and not looking after it. I realize im risking him still, but im taking extra measures. and hopefully when i have the money he'll get a bigger tank really soon. Plus i like to think i saved him, where he was all the other fish were picking on him, he was the only mollie left so i guess they thought putting him with smaller barbs wouldnt be so bad)
Oh Terry since you dont have any fish in that tank why nto put a discus cichild in it like ur avatar, they are freshwater fish but the most beautiful ive seen they look like saltwater fish. I think the only reason why they're not popular is there water must be almost perfect. But i think they are absolutely gorgeous and worth it!!!!!..just a thought..lol

Terry

Lolagurl - Nice to hear that all is well! I was starting to wonder if you lost Snowflake and didn't want to talk about it. You might hear otherwise, but the molly in a 2 gallon tank should be fine as long as you care for it, do a partial water change once a week or so, etc. It sounds like you'll give it the care that it needs and that to me is more important than the tank size. I agree the discus are really pretty fish, and it's one that I've never had. But they can get pretty big, and unless I set up that 55 gallon tank they wouldn't have the space they need. Maybe some day. There are a lot of cichlid fish available that are also very pretty, and a lot don't get quite as big as discus. I was successful years ago in breeding some of the cichlids (kribensis, convicts, etc.) and I really enjoyed it. They're egglayers and it was interesting watching the female and male take part in laying/attaching their eggs to the inside of an inverted half of a flowerpot, and then guarding the eggs and caring for their young. That was a long time ago. I can't remember if both parents cared for the young or if I had to take the male out of the tank. I do remember trading the young, when they got big enough, to local pet shops for equipment & supplies. Trying to find homes for 50 or more young fish was impossible, and the pet shops were the only place to take them. I'd give them away if I had to.

Emily - When I was young I thought about being a vet too - until I sat in on an operation on my dog. Actually I sat in on only a short part of it. I found very quickly that I would never be able to cut open a live animal and deal with the blood etc. It just freaked me out, and I left the room. I could deal with surgery on dead and preserved animals in the lab in college, but cutting open a live animal was just never going to be my thing! The squirrel chain of events was interesting, but unfortunately humans are here to stay (till we wipe ourselves out) and the roadkills are inevitable. I once hit a deer on the way to work when I lived in NJ for 2 years, and it was not a good experience. The deer was evidently frightened by some construction work going on, and by the time I saw him running in front of me it was too late. A LOT of damage to the car, but at least the deer was killed instantly. I've hit other animals too - a flock of geese crossing the road on a dark and very foggy morning, and at least one cat, etc., and they all left me feeling sad. What really bothers me is when I come upon an animal in the road that's been hit by someone else, and it's still alive, unable to get up and walk away, and is obviously suffering and in pain. I saw that with a cat in the road not long ago, and it left a vision in my mind that I wish I could erase - I try not to think about that one as it really shook me up to see that cat sitting up in a pool of blood under it's smashed back end, and plaintively looking at me as I drove by, seeming to be asking for help. i was tempted to turn around & put him out of his misery but I couldn't do it. All I could do was hope that it would die soon or be be put out of it's misery by another car.

We have a deer problem here too, and they're even considering allowing controlled hunting inside the poplulated areas. I've even seen deer behind my house for the first time in the 20+ years I've lived in Charlotte (originally from IL).

On your question as to if I think there's a difference in the moral obligations between keeping ornamental, tank bred wild types, or wild caught fish, I guess I'd have to say no - that the moral obligation to give the fish the care they need to remain healthy is the same in all cases. They're all living creatures and deserve the best care we can give them. What's your opinion?

I do think, however, that the repeated inbreeding of tropical fish has resulted in prettier fish with a lot less hardiness than the original wild varieties. In the last 2 years of getting back into the aquaria scene it seems like fish catch diseases, and even die for no apparent reason, much more than they did years ago. I suppose it's like the purebred (inbred) dogs in which certain types are prone to certain medical problems. I can't remember the last time I saw an original wild type guppy that was in pet shops when I was a kid. Those things were hardy! The guppies these days are much prettier, but seem more prone to medical problems. Is there a moral issue here? I don't know.

emilai333

Lola, glad to hear that snowflake is doing well. As far as tank size, agreed that the molly will be OK as long as you get plenty of water changes and watch the water quality carefully.

I fortunately can handle blood; I don't like the idea of cutting a living animal open but I could probably handle it with training. I do understand that we humans are here to stay (and destroy) but I don't have to like it. I've seriously considered trying out subsistance living in one of the more remote parts of the country. I've never hit anything myself, fortunately (almost hit deer a few times but have always avoided it), but I watched a rabbit literally get mowed down by a sportscar once. The driver sped up and chased the rabbit down. I won't go into detail but I was horrified and revolted.

I think that aquarium bred fish are somewhat different from wild-caught fish. A wild-caught fish, even a small variety, has experienced the freedom of much larger water quantities than most aquarists can provide. I don't know whether the fish has any memory of that open water; whether it cares that it has been moved to an aquarium; or whether it would rather be in the wild or in the aquarium... but just in case, it is my opinion that while 1gallon per inch of fish is a decent size tank for a captive bred fish, a wild fish should be alloted somewhat more space. I don't know how much more - I never wish to own wild fish.

As far as the inbreeding of fish to create more beautiful varieties: The health problems experienced by the more inbred varieties SHOULD not be such a problem, IMO. If the aquarium keeper maintains correct water quality and monitors the behavior of the fish to spot problems as they develope, and then deals with them to the best of his/her abilities, the majority of fish would have little problem. The main problem that I see is when these fish are sold to uninformed people, resulting in a frail fish receiving substandard care.

lolagurl

yea, i have no idea how big discus's get so that makes sense. Wow you bred cichild, theres a discussion on here somewhere on how hard they are to breed. Wo those convict are really pretty , those 50 fish must have been worth a lot of money. There are a lot of very pretty cichlids i was looking at them when i got my fish.
Um, yea think im gonna get a snail today for the tank, and do a water change today too. How do u do a water change, i know now you dont just dump the water and start new...now that i know about the cycling, but how do i do it? 50% water changes daily? i don't know lol.
The only thing i saw get run over was a squirrel, but its one of those things you feel sorry for because there was alot of construction going around his once home, he had to find another place to live and cross the road. When he got run over i saw another squirrel just looking at him on his hind legs at the edge of the grass where the road started. It waslike the squirrrel was waiting for him to cross the road. I was 6 when it happened but i still remember it.
Emilai how is mandarin doing? do u have other mollies?

Terry

No idea on fish memories. I've read that their memory only lasts 30 seconds, but I think they're wrong. I have a cory at work that used to not be upset when I'd wal up to the tank. Then one day months ago I found that he was firmly stuck in a little cave ornament in the tank (no longer small enough to get through it), and I had to use a fair amount of gentle but firm force to push him out of it. He got a little scraped up but healed up well. Now whenever I get close to the tank he runs & hides behind the plants. I firmly believe he has a memory of that incident and probably thinks I tried to kill him. Ungrateful LOL. I wouldn't consider that a trained response since the cave incident only happened once. As far as my other fish swimming to the front of the tank when I walk up, it would be nice to think that they're happy to see me and remember me, but it's probably a trained response - they associate me with food. Sorta like the Pavlov dog thing.

Lola: the water changes should probably be done at least once a week. You have a small tank so you can probably do it pretty easily by using a clean cup or glass (preferably plastic instead of glass) to take out about 25% (about a half a gallon if your tank is 2 gallons) of the water, put it in a small bucket or something & dump it. Then replace it with your spring water or tap water. Tap water is OK if you have some stuff to remove the chlorine). Try to get the water the same temperature as the tank water (it's not really accurate but I sometimes use my hand to test the water temperature). If you can't adjust the water temperature and it feels colder than the tank add the water back very slowly so you don't shock the fish. It's really best to try to match the water temperatures as best you can. I doubt you need to do this every day, but that's just my opinion. If the fish is up at the top trying to breathe, or looks like it has no energy and appears sick, then you might need more frequent water changes.

lolagurl

k yea so 25% water change once a week? or four times a week? i already did a 25% water change...his size is a little over 1 inch so he should be fine for now. So i guess the more gallons you get the less you have to change the water? The filter just cleans the water...changing the water gets rid of nitrates.?...do i have to do this till i move him to another tank..(which might be a while) or until its cycled (cuz as you know before i came on this site i was ignorant and didn't know to cycle)..i did 25% water change a few days ago and he isnt doing that anymore,,,,so thats good..he swimming alot at times....the light for my fish tank that came with it is a little bulb...i couldnt find a picture of it, but i think its candescent one so i have to get a mini florescent one..but would any florescent bulb fit in my candescent light socket..i have no clue on lightbulbs?

Terry

Hi Lola. Doing the water change 4 times a week seems a bit much if the fish is looking good, and I have a feeling that it will even slow down the cycling process doing it that often if the fish is OK. Maybe Emily or someone else can comment on that.

If you have a hood for the aquarium with an incandescent bulb I don't think there's any easy way to change to a fluorescent, Just remember that the incandescent bulbs give off a lot of heat - good in the winter but the tank may over heat in the summer if you leave the bulb on all day. Just use the type you have and keep that in mind.

lolagurl

o yes i dont put it on al ll the time just for a hour or tw here and there in the day, but i was asking about if i could get a mini florescent bulb and it would still fit in the same socket from a candescent bulb, and they said it would fit and too get it at wall mart so i think im gonna look there..oh yes i wont change my tank four times a week

emilai333

honestly, I'm not the best person to ask about cycling. *When I started, I had my bettas in 1/2 gallon jugs and did daily water changes. *Then I moved up to a divided ten gallon with daily water changes. *Then I got a filter, with water changes slowly decreasing to about once a week now. *When I set up my other tanks, I use some of the water and filter media from an old tank, instead of doing a full cycle. *I would say that four times a week is probably more than necessary, though, and will probably slow down cycling since you are doing an actual cycle. *Once a week is probably good... twice if you want to be extra clean. *I have a mini-vacuum (a self-starting syphon, mine is small enough that I could even use it in a one gallon jar if I wanted to... they're fairly cheap, I got mine at Petco) and I replace the water with dechlorinated tap water. *To get the temperature the same temperature as the tank water, I fill up jugs ahead of time, put the dechlor in them, and then let them set out for at least twenty four hours (I totally have 9 gallon size juice jugs full of water behind my door... next semester we'll probably need even more as we will hopefully be in an apartment with a friend who has goldfish). *

What size of light bulb do you need? *They do make flourescent light bulbs to fit into incandescent sockets now, but not at all sizes as far as I know. *You could take the old bulb to an aquarium store and/or a hardware store and see if they have any of the correct size. *I work at a hardware store so I know that they make standard lightbulb sizes because the flourescent bulbs are a lot brighter and therefore more efficient (you can use a 15 watt instead of a 60 or something insane like that.). *Unfortunately I don't know if they could get any of the correct size for a fishtank. *

Mandarin is still doing great. *The mollies are technically my roommates fish, they go in her community tank (which I manage and actually bought most of the stuff for, including all the fish... but its not mine because my parents won't allow me another fishtank.), we have two including mandarin. *The other is a black molly named Coal. *I like the mollies but I don't think they will be a fish I keep regularly after graduating from college - I prefer guppies, goldfish, and bettas. *

lolagurl

im gonna get a discus fish when i move........i dont know i wish i could find a picture of my little lightbulb it about this size
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----------------------------------------------------...it would fit in this box, so they dont make any florescent light bulbs this tiny......geez i really wanted to get one..i got a ivory apple snail...they have to come up out of the water for air..so it wont affect my fish...who is doing fine...well i always think the first few days is the hardest usually on a fish and hes still fine so...

emilai333

Glad you're molly is still doing well, Lola. I put Mandarin in the big tank and Coal decided to chase him about so I have Coal isolated for the moment. We'll see how it goes, I really hope I don't have to keep Mandarin in with my guppies or something. I don't want to have just one female in with Coal, and I don't have space for two. Maybe the time-out will cool Coal off.

Terry

Hi. I hope Mandarin is doing OK. I was doing a partial water change today and some filter maintenance and while doing some siphoning & gravel cleaning I tipped back a decoration in the tank and saw a baby gold dust molly swim out! Must be one from the birth a week ago, and may be the only one left. I suppose now that I chased it from it's hiding place it will get eaten - hope not! It was about 1/4 inch long & definitely yellow. I could have removed it I guess, but I'll let nature take it's course. I didn't want to wreck the tank setup trying to chase down one baby fish. Hopefully it's still in there & it will get big enough to venture out & not get eaten. I'm not sure if it's big enough at this point.

emilai333

congrats and/or good luck with the baby, Terry, and keep us posted! ATM, Coal and Mandarin seem to have their dominance thing worked out.

Terry

Hi Emily. I'm glad the fish figured out their "pecking order". I've noticed that one of my mickey mouse platy males has become the dominant platy in one tank, especially at feeding time. He picks on all the others, male & female, to be sure he gets all the food he wants. No sighting of the baby molly since Sunday - hopefully it's still in hiding (and growing!). I really don't want to disturb the tank again & have it swim out and get eaten! I'm hoping to see it again, when it's big enough to not end up as food.

emilai333

Thought I would share a story from today. I was vacuuming the tank and my fingers dipped slightly into the water. My very friendly little mollies have learned that hands over their tank mean food, and obviously if something drops into the tank from those hands, it must be food!!! I was paying attention to how much debris was flowing up into the tube when I felt a tickle on my finger. There was Coal, trying to fit the tip of my finger into his greedy little mouth. Mandarin wasn't far behind, either. It really tickled!!!