capekate

good morning Kate
I am so happy to here that your Sev is doing so much better! yeaaaa
He is a silly one rearranging your tank haha... stacking the pebbles on the driftwood what a silly boy he is heehe...
Why not do the water change before starting a new course of meds and see how the spots are doing? Its possible during that time the meds in his system may be working and finish the job and you may not have to do another round of meds? Or just go with the Maracyn in the next round if you need to?
Best of luck with him.. looks like he is out of the woods!

MissMTS

He seems to take his rock moving very seriously, but I think its hillarious!

Thanks Kate

I did a water change two days ago. His white patches have not re-appeared so that is good. He seems better but is still spitting out his food. I started the whole tank on Jungle Hold in Head Guard which will help his HITH and also treat any internal parasites. I have been feeding the Jungle Anti-Parasite food, but I don't know how much it is helping him since he is not eating. It is probably good for the rest of the fish just in case he has given anything to them though. I am supposed to dose the tank every other day, three times, with a water change in between each dose. Hopefully after this things will get better and I can relax

capekate

Hi Kate
I hope he recovers well for you too.... Keep up the good work.. thats about all you can do now, if he spits out his food, he may be getting some of it in, at least he is putting it in his mouth and not ignoring it and hopefully getting some of the meds from the food too.
Best of luck... Im sure he will do well.

Shaina

I'm glad he's getting better! He's a very nice-looking guy

Do you think he's very personable? My LFS just got Gold Severums in for the first time, and they seem terribly shy, but maybe it's just from being the fish store...

MissMTS

Thanks Kate

Hi Shaina

Zeplin is probably the most personable fish that I own. He is the center of attention all the time and his behaviors totally crack me up! I would deffinetly recommend getting a severum if you have the chance. The are great fish! The ones at the LFS might just be shy because, like you said, they are in a fish store and not well adjusted in a nice big tank.

MissMTS

I did the last treatment of Hole in Head Guard today. He is still not eating He will nibble on something occasionally and make me think that he's getting better but its not consistent and he's losing weight. He is not acting sick. He chases the other fish around the tank and tears apart my plants, but he just doesn't eat!!! I don't know what else to do at this point. I love the little guy to death but he is frustrating me to no end!

He was tearing apart my plants so I planted all of my anubias so that he couldn't pull them out of the ground. He can't pull them out, but he is munching on their leaves Maybe I'll move them to another tank and just get some more driftwood and give up on the idea of plants in his tank. I am afraid to move them out while he is still sick though because I don't want to transmit any diseases. Anyhow, this is how the tank looks now:

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pinkfloydpuffer

Your tank looks great! I hope your guy starts behaving soon

MissMTS

Thanks Pink I hope he starts behaving too. Grrr....its not really the plant eating that is bothering me, its the not eating the food that is annoying me!

Shaina

Thanks for the reply I will have to keep severum in mind for the future...the more I hear about them, the more I like them. However, at this point my 90g is the only potential tank I have for them, and I'm not sure my Green Terror would make a good Severum tankmate lol.


I'm sorry to hear you guy's still having a rough time of it. Keeping my fingers crossed for you!

MissMTS

Thanks Shaina. I have heard sucess stories about keeping GT's with severums. I think it just depends on the temperment of the GT. A lot of people say that it helps to put a younger GT with a larger severum and let the GT grow up with the sev in the tank

Shaina

That's a good idea, but while my GT is only about 3", the severums at the store were maybe 1.5" lol


How's your guy doing now? Any better?

MissMTS

No, sadly he's not doing any better. He killed my male marbled angel, so I removed the rest of my angels from the tank. Now the rest of the fish are getting sores on their bodies and he is still not eating. At this point, all I can do is water changes. I don't have any more money to spend on meds and after 4 different medications, I am not sure what else would work anyways. I am just leaving the tank and letting whatever is in there run its course. Its heartbreaking to watch all of my poor fish go through this

MissMTS

Well, sadly things are getting worse. All of my fish are infected and despite pristine water conditions and frequent WC's they are not getting better. I lost a rainbowfish and a keyhole yesterday. I am sure I will lose them all within the next few weeks I wish that I had the money to do more treatment on the tank, but doing 10 days of the Maracyn and Maracyn 2 would cost about $100 for an 80 gallon tank. I just can't afford any extra expenses right now, especially since we are moving this month. I feel so helpless that I can't do more for my fishies and I feel so responsible for all of this mess because I didn't quarantine Zeplin.....

cerianthus

May I get a crack at it? Is there reasons behind combining two different types of Antibiotics?
Can you post new pics?
I am sure you dont have NH3, NO2 problems but curious of pH of water although I do know fish can acclimate/adapt to wider range of pH.
Your Red Irian Rainbow is ok with higher pH, if memory serves, but SA Cichlids fare better or should I say less problems/complications around neutral water (6.6 - 7.2).
If recall correctly, less solubility of most antibiotics in harder water.
Anyway, lmk the pH and pics and I'll see if can assist.

MissMTS

Thanks My pH is around 7.4 so it shouldn't be too high for my sev. The keyholes have been in my tank for about 1.5 years. My sev has been at my LFS for a long time, and now that I have gone back to look at the tank, a lot of the fish are infected with the same thing. The reason that I used Maracyn and Maracyn 2 is because that coves gram positive and negative bacterial infections. That is recommended treatment for columnaris, which is what I am pretty sure it is. My sev also has HITH, and has not really eaten anything since I added him to the tank a month ago. Everything was fine and as soon as I introduced him I ended up with a ton of problems. I should have known better and quarantined him, but what can I say....I got excited and jumped the gun. I also treated the tank with internal parasite meds and HITH Guard (not at the same time as the Maracyn and with water changes and a few days in between). I will try to get some more recent pics tonight when I get home from work. His fins are shredded now as well. Thanks for your help.

cerianthus

Most Cichlids can last much longer than 1.5 yrs (most cichlids lasted more than 9 yrs, may be longer, I just dont remember, in display tank w/ minimal maintenance).
Gram negative or Gram positive, i dont think it is that important on hobbyist level. By mixing two antibiotics(how they actually work, like inhibit protein sysnthesis of bacteria, etc, we dont need to know) may do more harm and/or diminished its effectiveness. And yes it is EXPENSIVE to TREAT fish w/ Antibiotics compared to Antibiotics we use for ourselves, lol!
I would've treat with one first (whatever is recommended for Flexibacter columnaris bacteria and i really dont know if pathogenic bacteria is columnaris either)). I dont remember which antibiotic is better anymore but Probably Maracyn II (Minocycline derivative of Tetracycline) would have been better choice than Maracyn (erythromyacin).



pH isnt that bad. Do you have Bacitracin/Neosporin Ointment around the house? I know what i am suggesting sounds odd or difficult task but better than nothing.

lmk if you have ointements and updated pics

MissMTS

Thanks so much for the help I meant that they keyholes have been living in a 7.4 pH for a year and a half, not that I thought their lifespan was up, lol. I don't have any neosporin ointment, but I can pick some up. I had heard that the most aggressive way to treat columnaris is with both meds, and the Mardel company says that they can be used together. Hmmmm..... Do you know what will help the IP's and HITH? My sev is not eating at all and that can't be good either. I'll try to get some better pics tonight.

MissMTS

I am trying to get good pics, but the fish are hiding and not cooperating, so I thought I would at least give you a list of the symptoms while I try to get pics.

1. White patches on the skin
2. Frayed Fins
3. Loss of Appetite
4. Mouth Rot (columnaris)
5. Dark Coloration
6. Hiding

My rainbowfish that died this morning had an open sore on his tail and white patches (not fuzzy) on his skin.

My severum has several small pits in his head which are clearly the beginnings of Hole in the Head disease. He hasn't eaten in almost a month......

cerianthus

If what I saw on keyholes is what I think it is, med may not have much affect. It looks like some growth at the edges of tail/fins, like lympho. What I used to do was some what difficult but it worked for many fish (including tiny fish) with same/similar symptoms.

Bucket with some tank water, need single edge blade/knife to scrap off those white solids on the edges on tail/fins. Maybe hubby/bf should do it. You have to hold the fish in your palm just about the top of water in the bucket and scrap those thing off againt your fingers with blade/knife. Becareful not to cut your self. Once off, apply (just a smear) Bacitracin on the entilre tail/fin you performed minor surgery.. Repeat the smear of ointment daily as needed. No ointment on gill/around gills.
Water and oil dont mix well thus just a smear will do. Any excess will just fall off and is another pollutants.

If you are using any vitamin such Vitachem, etc, which you dose into water, stop using it. I dont really know how vitamin can be absorbed thru skin, that is if any, but I do not believe adding vitamin to water. Vitamin is protein thus pollutant as it decays. if want to use it, add it to food (flakes, FD/Fz food).

I think there was many thread to IP but unfortunately other than feeding or injection, i dont know of any other ways. Levamisole HCl is only med which is known to be absorbed thru skin but it is for roundworms (nematodes)only, not for other types of worm.
If GS is not eating, med food is worthless. How about rasing temp slighly to 80-82F. As temp rise, their metabollic rates increase thus it may entice/stimulate eating. Try feeding live brine/black worm (cultured so less chance of getting internal infection)/tiny baby guppies, etc.

As far as I know with HITH, no known drug to cure. Good diet/clean water will slow down/stop the disease. Constant changes (massive water changes are NOT clean water, it may put more stress on fish when changes are drastic) in water chemistry should be avoided . Rather small but more frequent changes are better for fish.
Try not to add tap water directly into tank even with water conditioner and stop adding water conditioners unnecessarily. It is chemicals just like any other chemicals. Overuse is not good. Fish normally produce slime on their own using specialized cell. Dont remember exactly how (something to do with dead cells being secreted as slime) but do remember that they dont need outside help.
Stresscoat, what a misleading name! If it works that well, I would put on myself thruout the day, and believe me I do need plenty of stress relifer. lol!
For all I know, too much slime in water can possibly choking the fish.

Unfortunately this is all I can do to help, at least for now. Lmk if you have any questins.
Good night!

MissMTS

Thank you so much for all of your help. I will definetly try everything that you said. Thanks for your diagnosis and advice to a more holistic approach. That really helps. I use Prime as my water conditioner. I do add Vitachem to the water, but I will stop for now. I raised the temp of the tank already as a last resort. Hopefully it will help. Tonight I fed them frozen brine shrimp and my sev actually nipped at a few of them. I can't tell if he spit them out or not though. I do have one question...what would you attribute dark coloration to? I am not sure what the cause of that might be. Maybe stress?

cerianthus

White crust at the edges are more of either primary/secondary VIRAL infection, I believe.
Dark coloration of fish is a sign of being stress whatever it may be. Even constant drastic water changes can be a stress factor to fish. I never done more than 30% at one time unless some toxic substances went into water.
For instance when new discus arrived via shipping (wild or captive bred), if one does not acclimate the fish properly (proper water conditions and slo drip) and dont watch out for depth of water in the acclimating pan/bucket, these factors can/does turn fish in darker coloration and they cluster around top corners. I even seen newly arrived discus out of bag that barely has half cup of water. By exposing to deeper water(pressure) while aclimating can even cause discomfort/death of fish.

Always check the pH of water fish that came in thus at least you will know how long the fish has to acclimate for, greater the ph difference, longer the acclimation process. I've even took two three days to acclimate new fish.
It is my belief that when new fish are brought in, try to simulate the water conditios the fish came in provided that lfs did not kept them in extreme water.
If new fish came in at pH of 6.6, I would condition the water in Q/T close to 6.6. And if main tank pH is 7.4, i would take few days/weeks to slowwly adjusted the pH by small pwc using water from main tank. i would never expect the fish to adjust to way different water in couple of hours. I know that some people can and have kept at extreme pH but my question is would you take a chance if you bought many many fish knowing that more casualty may take place.
Yes, it is lot of work keeping fish but my conclusion is less loss/complication when PROPERLY ACCLIMATE and when extremes are avoided.

I rarely experienced symptoms as your fish in F/W except in wild fish, it was mostly in S/W. There are enough Wild f/w Fish on the market such as certain corys, cichlids and tetras, etc thus make a habit of asking if the fish are wild and when they arrived. Let the lfs do the proper accliamating/qtg the wild/new fish for while provided lfs knows what they are doing.. Symptoms may develop with time.
I've seen enough fish turned dark when in stress but rarely HITH is the reason. As long as water condition is to their liking, they may live many yrs even with the scars from HITH (notorious on Oscars).

I am just worried about not eating. Dont want GS to starve to death.
If had it for month and havnt eaten that well for month, fish should show loss of weight/tucked in stomach. If you do not notice the weight loss, it maybe finding enough food including plants.
I would like to see latest pic of all the fish if and when possible.

Another option you can try as a last resort is to alter the water condition just for him. This must be done in q/t but like I said as last resort. lmk if nothing else works.

MissMTS

Thanks for all of the advice. Whenever I do an acclimation, I usually take almost all day to do it and I do use the drip acclimation method. The LFS was keeping the fish in city water, so I am pretty sure that the pH is similar to that of my tank. My sev (Rotkeil, not Green btw) doesn't look like he has a sunken stomach to me, but he does look smaller. He does munch on the plants constantly though. I fed the fish some frozen blood worms last night and daphnia this morning and he nipped at a couple of pieces which made me hopeful. For a while he was ignoring the food all together. I got the neosporin and a new knife (I wanted to ensure that the blade was sterile) to remove the growths on the keyholes. You said that they looked like lympho. I have heard that term before but I am not sure what it is exactly. Is it harmful to the fish?

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MissMTS

Here's a few more pics of the keyholes....

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cerianthus

They dont look that bad. I think they look better than first pics you posted.
If already done minor surgery, thats fine. If you havent done it yet wait until you notice condition worsening. In my view, they seemed def better than first pics.

I am very concerned about white stringy thing on the glass. If it is what i think it is, that tells me lots of decaying organic matters in the tank. No worrys!. DONT DO ANYMORE WATER CHANGES OTHER THAN ROUTINE, LOL!. I think Fishlorians do too much/too drastic WC unneccessarily, imo.

Do you know if those ceramic pots are free of chemicals?

Lympho is vial infection which can produce tumors/tumor-like growth (salt crust on the edges of tail/fin). Once tumors are removed and healed and kept in optimal conditions, it can be stopped/controlled without further medications.

Just monitor and observe the fish to make sure you catch the changes/symptoms early (Let's hope NOT).

Your Sev seems pretty health, both weight wise and color wise. Do see speck/small patches but somewhat blur to confirm. Any large Cichlild or even dwarf cichlid will show sunken-in forehead (both side above the eye) when starving or improperly fed for while.

I dont know what the temp are now but how about raising bit to a point where temp wont bother the plants.
Verify for me if those white thingy are crawling/moving on the glass (2nd bottom, right side pic).

Hope my guesses are right and fish are on their way to full recovery! It may take long time thus have a little patience and continue to monitor and observe.

Good Luck!

MissMTS

Thanks so much for your help I am going to try to raise the temp a little bit more and see how they do. There aren't white things crawling on the glass, lol. That is just paper towel residue from cleaning the outside of the glass before I took pictures. I didn't clean the inside of the glass before I took the pics. Sorry for the blurryness and poor quality of the pics. My sev does have a few small specks on his tail, but they don't look like raised growths. Thanks so much for all of the advice and hopefully my fish will recover soon. I am thinking that my rainbow that died had an open sore on his tail, but that could have been from my sev biting him (he does chase and nip at the other fish sometimes). My keyhole that died was really stressed because my other two have paired up so they may have harassed him to death. Hopefully I won't lose any more fish.

MissMTS

Good News!!!

I removed the plants from the tank and moved them to my 75 gallon (after a bleach dip and thorough rinsing) because I wanted to monitor how much Zeplin is eating. He does munch on the plants, but it is hard to say how much. I moved some of the driftwood from my 75 gallon into this tank and re-aquascaped to establish more hiding places and break up the territories a bit. The tank is no longer planted, but the fish seem happier. And.......the best part....... Zeplin is eating at every meal!!!! I am sooo happy! He has been eating bloodworms, brine shrimp, and veggie flakes. Hopefully the growths on the keyholes will disappear soon and everything will go back to normal.

pinkfloydpuffer

Aaaawwww, come on Zeplin!

cerianthus

Glad to hear things are looking uuuuupppppp!!!!!

mikey079

i like your setup. nice work

MissMTS

Thanks! I think I am going to re-home the keyholes when I move because they just seem really stressed out all the time by my severum. I am going to look for some other tankmates for him that will hopefully be able to hold their own a little bit better.

Thanks so much!!!